John ks Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 See #234 Joseph I also misinterpreted your post 234 In an earlier post I suggested that the floor be cantilevered & I read your post to mean that When I drew post 246 I thought it was my idea but I may have subconsciously nicked your idea For that I apologise. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted May 29, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 29, 2018 (edited) I agree with David that a jumbo-turntable would probably be slightly easier to engineer than a jumbo-traverser but either will be quite challenging. Both need a stiff deck, very close tolerances where the deck moves next to the fixed baseboard and both need some means of precise track alignment at different positions. The traverser needs precise parallel movement (which I think Gordon said somewhere above had caused him some problems) and very strong fixings or some further support when it is fully extended. On the other hand, a turntable would remain balanced in all positions but would need it's axis of rotation to be exactly perpendicular to the fixed baseboard. In either case I think that the deck should be as light weight as possible so that you're not fighting inertia when you want to start, and stop(!) it moving. And along with all of that you probably need to take temperature and humidity fluctuations into account. So all this suggests to me: A very solid base, or common sub-frame, upon which both the mechanism and fixed baseboard can be mounted to minimise relative movements between them. A rigid structure to support the runners or axle, with some way of making micro-adjustments to tune the alignment. A box girder deck frame, either ply or aluminium. A deck surface mounted on the frame with some way of making micro-adjustments to the surface level where it runs next to the fixed baseboard surface. [Edit:] If you're standing on the closed side of a fully open traverser you might not be able to reach the furthest track and so to make changes on that track you'd either have to close the traverser (assuming it can be operated from both sides) or walk round to the other side. A small thing but it could get annoying if it happens often. Edited May 29, 2018 by Harlequin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted May 29, 2018 Author Share Posted May 29, 2018 Chums, Ideas are flying around again. I agree that the turntable idea may well be worth re-visiting. My son-in-law is a very good car mechanic (see where I'm going?) and can knock-up no manner of things in metalwork. The key - and what had put me off at first - is the central support/pivot and the forces put on it when turning. I need to have in mind the weight on one central point in respect of floor loadings - spreading the load over two/three or more points using a traditional traverser seemed to be the more prudent approach. I am reconsidering the turntable for a number of reasons: The timber or the flooring as supplied is actually 6.15m long. Allowing 150mm bearing into the wall it means I have 6.0m with which to play. Added to that if I follow Joseph and John's idea of cantilevering the layout boards so they oversail the void increasing the width to about 6.4m (walls out of true unfortunately), I end up with rather more space in the middle that allows the turntable to turn without hindering any operating areas north and south. For simplicity of operation I like. As for the alignment of the tracks - as mentioned earlier - peg-in-hole could be just the job. Regarding the construction, traverser or turntable, I was considering a steel subframe with cross members skinned with good quality ply - not too thick of course (15mm could be a good compromise). The building itself is dry BUT when the weather is damp (fog or drizzle) there is humidity inside. However, this primarily because the walls have to be raised to meet the new roof-line and the existing doors and windows need to be renewed and sealed properly. There it is, mulling time whilst excavating in the garden today, Cheers, Philip 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted May 29, 2018 Author Share Posted May 29, 2018 Well, I mulled a lot this afternoon having found that the footings of the house are only 8" (200mm) deep and based on some very nasty looking and sticky green/grey clay. The only thing in between the stones was earth - not even earth/lime - just earth. The stone is shot too as it's mudstone. It's hard and the same colour as engineering brick - and that's the end of any similarity. It fractures when hit or subject to frost. Still, I shall just rake out the earth, replace the worst of the stones and make good with some lime and sand mix and then back-fill with the clay and a covering of gravel. It's going to be protected by the decking so I'm not over concerned - after all it's been standing for 190 years (so far). Back to the traverser/turntable debate: I did have a thought regarding the traverser. A steel tube frame fixed on industrial grade castor wheels (supermarket trolley style but non-swivelling) that would run in grooves (steel rail or even just timber battening) to stop any drift.The top of the frame would skinned with plywood. Sturdy, not too heavy, few moving parts and easy to push/pull. The alignment being taken care of by the peg-in-hole system. What do you think? Cheers, Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 If you refer to your own post #223 youll notice that you, yourself gave very good reasons against a turntable. Add to those the need to ensure accurate alignment at both ends of a very large table, i think youd be better off sticking with a traverser. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted May 30, 2018 Author Share Posted May 30, 2018 There are arguments for and against both - the thing that does concern me about the turntable is point loading on the floor joists. I'm really at the limit regarding spans in timber. We shall see as I have time to explore both before any real work starts - it is nevertheless good to have ideas and contributions from all of you who read this thread. Cheers, Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted May 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) Yes, for either traverser or turntable even the smallest deflection in the floor as you or your visitors move around could cause alignment problems at the interface of the moving deck with the fixed baseboards. That's why I suggested a subframe to connect them together and minimise the movement at that interface but it would have to be very strong and small deflections could still be an issue. A traditional fixed track fiddle yard might turn out to be a better answer if you can make a space-efficient points fan, which is always their downside, and accept that some roads won't be long enough for the longest trains. You've got the feed triangle to reverse the direction of trains (maybe only for shorter trains) and if you're thinking of using cassettes maybe that means you don't need so many fixed roads in the fiddle yard? Edited May 30, 2018 by Harlequin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted May 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2018 Joseph I also misinterpreted your post 234 In an earlier post I suggested that the floor be cantilevered & I read your post to mean that When I drew post 246 I thought it was my idea but I may have subconsciously nicked your idea For that I apologise. John No worries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted May 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2018 There are arguments for and against both - the thing that does concern me about the turntable is point loading on the floor joists. I'm really at the limit regarding spans in timber. We shall see as I have time to explore both before any real work starts - it is nevertheless good to have ideas and contributions from all of you who read this thread. Cheers, Philip I really don't think you need to worry. 4mm trains don't weigh that much and the turntable will be spreading the load across at least four legs presumably. You could tie those legs together at floor level to spread the load but I think that is overkill. With regard to the turntable itself, aluminium extrusions should give you something rigid but light. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted May 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2018 Cantilevering the baseboards out beyond the floor could help you with that staircase headroom problem as well as giving more width. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted May 30, 2018 Author Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) Nooooo Joseph, Not MORE space - it'll all need filling up with track and scenery and trains and other things ................ £££££ s (Good thinking though). Regarding the loading of the floor, I'm not too concerned about the weight of the stock itself, more a case of the metalwork centrally located to support the track. Wheel hubs are mighty heavy and it'll all be near the middle of the floor space at mid-span level. As Dendridge has rightly pointed out there'll be the movement of people to consider as they will cause some flexing too. I recall gordon s had issues in his new-build trying sort out gradients in Eastwood Town due to floor flexure. Things to consider. Cheers, Philip Edited May 30, 2018 by Philou Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted May 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2018 Let's stick with the wheel hub idea (although I think it's slightly overkill). A wheelhub for a lightweight trailer, which you will find easily in France at a camping shop, weighs only a few kilos. You really don't need one from a car designed to take a loading of 1 tonne. If the turntable is resting on a subframe, linked to the main baseboard to avoid movement between them, the total weight will be on at least four, and perhaps as many as eight, legs. Point loads really not an issue. Yes, if you go longer, a couple of metres more track and a bit more scenery. No need to make it more complicated or much more expensive - just more spacious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) Hello chums, Just passing through to let you all know I'm still alive and well. I had to give up any start on the sun deck for this year due to the .. err ... sun. Eight weeks of blazing sun and temperatures most days in the 30s peaking at about 38 for a couple of days. Did finish the wall though - looks OK. Been buying odd items of stock since I last wrote - mainly ATW MUs - because I like the look of them and they remind me of home ..... Had a brilliant buy two weekends ago. Those of you that visit or live in France will have heard of 'brocantes'. Bit of a bring'n'buy/boot sale/garage sale sort of thing. Whole villages close down for a day and stalls set up (may be half a dozen or a hundred). I don't go very often as I find they're full of tat and I'm usually not disappointed. Anyway, I went to our local 'big' one two villages away with perhaps 70-odd stalls and apart from a number of 'professionals' most of it was tat. However, one stall did have a couple of bits and pieces of railway related stuff (Fleischmann and old Jouef coaches) of which I had no interest, but he did have a Blackpool 'balloon' tram. What that was doing in a tiny french village about 800 miles from Blackpool I don't know - but at €20 unboxed I passed by. Two stalls away was a fishing tackle stand and lurking in a small crate were a few coaches - l looked and then looked a little more closely as I could see brown and pale yellow underneath the pile, that I thought a bit unusual for a continental colour scheme. Fished it out - a Bachy 60' Collett First/Third composite in chocolate and cream with the GWR shirtbutton! '€5 if you're interested luv' (or the french equivalent). 'Err OK' (trying not to look too interested). Dug in and found another and a brake composite. I was well pleased - 3 coaches for about £14. All complete with UK couplings, minor scuff marks (that simply rubbed off with a cotton bud), bit of chipped paint on a couple of the roof hand grabs and three missing roof vents on one of the coaches. Nothing major. Replacement vents can be found or made, a bit of dark grey paint and then some light weathering. Good enough for me!! The weather has broken, but I have to now go and get my wood from the .... um .... woods for the winter. Still standing and has to be cut down and then cut up and stocked for next year. I'll be busy for a few weeks with the chainsaw (frightens the life out of me!). Hopefully November 1st will be the start of the works in the barn for the layout ... hurrah!!! I'll keep you posted. Toodle pip, Philip Edited August 31, 2018 by Philou 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 All sounds very familiar! It has been very hot here down in the south Vienne too! Wood ordering and chainsawing are on the close horizon also. The only difference is I have had no luck at vide greniers (car boots) finding any railway stuff! Bon chance! John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted September 1, 2018 Author Share Posted September 1, 2018 Hello John, Another ex-pat into railways - good on you. If I can ask - what do you model? I'm (was) into everything but now the start of my layout is looming and the area now decided it'll be mainly GWR/Western with a bit of LNWR/Midland. I have enough bits to go from the 20s to the modern day - but as ever Rule 1 will apply! Cheers, Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Hello John, Another ex-pat into railways - good on you. If I can ask - what do you model? I'm (was) into everything but now the start of my layout is looming and the area now decided it'll be mainly GWR/Western with a bit of LNWR/Midland. I have enough bits to go from the 20s to the modern day - but as ever Rule 1 will apply! Cheers, Philip Hi Philip, I grew up in Exeter and my model railway is an 00 layout based on those memories of the late 50s and early 60s. Exeter was lucky in as much as it had GWR and Southern main line stuff going through the same station (Exeter St Davids) so all my stock and workings reflect this. I do not attempt to be ultra correct or accurate but pretty close. My layout is in the "grenier" and is about 30ft by 6ft (roundy roundy) plus an impending extra baseboard for the branch line terminus. I am about 2 years into the build which of course will never end. And yes... Rule 1 always applies! Like you summer has interrupted work as July and August are always taken up with kids, grand kids etc. spending time here and I tend to get gamma rays from "Management" if I disappear for too long into what she calls my "time portal". It could be they come to see us or it maybe something to do with the weather and what is in our garden! Cheers John 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted September 1, 2018 Author Share Posted September 1, 2018 @JST I'm not envious - no, not at all, nope, no way ............... sigh. The decking that should have been done this summer was to have had a small 3m x 2m one incorporated into it - just big enough for the grand children to splash around in - IF we ever have another hot'un. Good luck with the layout - I remember the Exeter St. David's layout proposed by CJ Freezer in his bigger layout plans. There were two versions: one was a reproduction of the real thing (it couldn't have been built using only Peco points at the time) and a simplified version. I was impressed. Which have you gone for and do you have any pictures you would like to share? For those that saw my 'best buy' above, someone at the railway club, to which I went this afternoon, did one better. Same weekend but different venue. He picked up a near complete Hornby (and he was very specific that the items were Hornby and not Tri-ang Hornby) 'Davy Crockett' set (the loco is missing a steam dome), a 'Lord of the Isles' and one coach and Stephenson's 'Rocket' plus coaches for the princely sum of ............... (drum roll) .............. €26! Yes, twenty-six euros! Oh, and the locos worked straight away when run at home. It looks as if I'm going to have to be a bit less snooty about 'brocantes' and 'vide greniers' and have good dig around. The stuff is out there to be picked up. Cheers, Philip 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Hi Phil, I have not attempted to re-create Exeter St Davids in any way other than the locos and stock that ran through it so the track work is entirely random. My layout is all about nostalgia and running trains. Because I have a decent size space I can actually have platforms that take 10 coach trains - luxury! Some of my locos were given to me personally by Roland Hornby (my mum worked for him) when I was a kid and are now over 60 years old. Converting them to DCC is not straightforward but it has to be done! Other locos and stock belonged to my best school friend who died aged 50 without ever getting to build a layout and run them so I felt I ought to do it on his behalf. I am currently involved in planning and building the steam loco shed with help from this forum and if you look at the thread I posted as "Loco Shed Plan" http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136515-loco-shed-plan/page-2 there are a couple of pictures of some of the layout so far! It is our village (Lizant) vide grenier on the 16th of this month... I will be looking closely! John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) Ooooooooooooooooooooooh happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me etc. Unfortunately another year has ticked by - seemingly more quickly than other years!! . Nonetheless, November 1st is just on the horizon which prompted me to bring you up to date. Well .................. for the last month or so I has mostly been in the woods cutting trees down and into 1.0m lengths and the last lot came down this morning (nice start to a birthday day eh?). What has been done doesn't look a lot but there must be 16 cu.m to bring in (about 8 tonnes). I also have a flat that I've been doing up in between times - part of 'things that must be done' before I start on the railway. It looks as if even I could start on 1st November, it going to be an exceeding slooo ooowww start - and then it'll get cold ..... mutter mutter. Anyway, a start will be made! SWMBO came up trumps this morning - presented me with my pressie - a Bachy 3F 'Jinty' in LMS black with sound - yay! Totally out of my region (I think) and I have no idea what period it represents (yellow edged with red serif letters and numerals - I'm only just learning about the differences between GWR, GW, GREAT () WESTERN, Shirtbutton etc. Even if it's totally wrong for Pontrilas/Ledbury, Rule 1 will apply. I'll post up again in a couple of weeks - when things kick off. Toodle pip, Philip Edited October 13, 2018 by Philou 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Happy birthday! looks like you have got "Management" well trained! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 14, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2018 Many happy returns (belated) Phillip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 Hi chums, Well today is 1st November ............................. It'll be a delayed start unfortunately ...... grandkids, visitors, half-term, double bank holiday (over here), son-in-law back at college, wood to brought in from the forest etc., etc., All those 'little' things that trip you up ...................... However, not all is doom and gloom ..... I have negotiated with SWIMBO the use of the dining room table between the departure of our next lot of visitors and Christmas. I'm going to prebuild some modules especially of the stations (not Dymented) as they won't be affected by any final plan if there is an opportunity of enlargement when the flooring is laid. I'll keep you posted in a week or so. Cheers, Philip 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) Hello chums, 'Tis me again. The last of our visitors went yesterday and after some rather successful negotiating by yours truly with SWMBO the dining room table which had become vacant has now become a temporary workbench - threats and menaces regarding scratches, screwholes and other such like matters notwithstanding. HOWEVER, I have decided I'm not going to start on any of my modules - I'm going to complete my younger grandson's layout instead. 'Oh, why?' I hear you ask. It is simply this: I have read over the last couple of months the comments regarding the GMRC which from all accounts was quite a good 'family' show - and I understand perhaps not for the purist - but nonetheless, an introduction of what can be done in a limited time and not necessarily involving a major outlay financially. Now the poor lad, who is now 7, was promised this layout TWO birthdays and one Christmas ago. He asked for this Christmas if he could have a steam loco to run on the elder grandson's layout - to which I readily agreed. It did make me think though, if I don't get this layout done, then his interests may turn elsewhere, which would be a pity. Therefore, I have set myself a challenge to get this layout done for Christmas - yes, this Christmas. I am happy to leave myself open on this and as part of the challenge to myself, I am going to start a new topic for the duration of this layout building to which I shall add daily pictures of the progress (I DO need deadlines to get things done!!!). As I started yesterday, I have some pictures already - nothing much - but it's a start. If all goes well, the title I have chosen will be 'Pappy Philip's own gmrc' (grand-dad's model railway challenge). If it works out I'll post a link here later. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139889-pappy-philips-own-gmrc/ Cheers, Philip Edited for link. Edited November 27, 2018 by Philou 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted December 1, 2018 Author Share Posted December 1, 2018 (edited) Evening everyone, I'm back. Keeping myself busy whilst waiting for things to dry on the other layout, I started drawing some longitudinal and cross-sections of 'Dymented' and I have run into a possible problem in the area of Ledbury station. My original plan had been to construct the layout in modules so that I could build them indoors and then mount them in the barn as and when completed - probably in groups of three so that track passing over joints could be aligned correctly - so far so good. In order that the modules were then aligned to each other (and assuming all the modules are to the same depth), apart from bolting them together, I was intending to set out a pair of parallel beams in softwood (nothing too big - 75 x 25mm say) supported and levelled and then simply place the modules on the beams and rebolt together - sounds OK? These beams would have been at datum level of -100mm, the board tops being 0mm datum. The problem is this: At one end of Ledbury (the west side) the Leadon River over which is constructed the Ledbury Viaduct lies 450mm below the track - not too bad - but at the other end over the Ledbury tunnel are part of the Malvern Hills rising 700mm above the track - on it's own that's OK too. What it does mean however, is, if I follow the plan in my head I'm going to end up with modules that are going to be 1300mm (over 4ft) high and 900mm wide. The hills are not going to be heavy in themselves as they'll be in polystyrene (expanded or extruded), it's the weight of the 10mm ply construction that concerns me. I can lighten it of course by cutting out 100mm diameter holes - but that seems to me rather wasteful. I would rather avoid stepping the modules, as laying them on a known datum (the parallel beams) seems attractive as there is less room for error when it comes to joining them together. Any ideas? Cheers, Philip Edit: I'll post up the longitudinal section and some cross-sections tomorrow. I need to ink over what I have drawn in order that the scanner can do its job. Edited December 1, 2018 by Philou Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted December 3, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2018 Could the Malverns be built as a separate thing on a light frame that could be dropped into position after the rest of the module is in place? Obviously I may not be visualising this correctly ……… Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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