Hornby 61xx pannier

[westonman]

Hi all, i have 2 Hornby 61xxs and both are poor runners stalling on points etc.

I believe they are derived from the old Airfix models and re motored by Hornby.

My question is has anyone found a way to get these locos to perform better.

Cheers

Bob

Meant to say Prarie tanks not Pannier.

Edited January 28, 2018 by westonman

[Phil47gwr]

It isn't just these locos, I think. I have a Bachmann 64XX which is lovely thing but keeps stalling on my (insulfrog) points. It's to do with the pick-ups and any suggestions to improve matters would be useful to me also.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Several of my modern locos have had to have the pick-ups adjusted when new as they don't touch the wheels at the maximum play either side of centre. The other thing is that I always clean the wheels. including the back where the pick-ups make contact. You would be surprised how much dirt there is on some of them from new..

[The Johnster]

Insulfrog points need to be very carefully laid if they are to not give this sort of problem, and I suspect the age of your 61s is not the main issue here if they run ok on plain track.  The same is true of setrack points which have insulated frogs, but to a lesser extent as the insulated part is shorter.  As the insulated section is to all intents and purposes dead electrically, it is essential that pickup is reliable on the wheelsets that are not over it at a given time, as the loco will only continue to move if there is a constant supply of voltage to the motor.  

 

So, it is vital that the points and adjoining track are laid dead level and smooth, so that all the pickup wheels are sitting properly on the rail heads.  It is also vital that all the pickups are clean and working, bearing on the back face of the wheels 100% of the time.  And it is also vital that every part of this system, track, point blades, wheel tyres, and pickups, in fact any point at which electrical current is potentially disturbed, is clean and does not have carbon deposit build up from arcing on it.  This involves a regime of regular track cleaning, inspection of the closure between blades and stock rails, dust and debris removal from flangeways which can lift wheels clear of the rail.  Wheels must be clean, including those on coaches and wagons especially plastic ones (I am attempting to eliminate these) which will pick up crud easily and spread it almost wilfully by malicious intelligence where it can do most harm to your running, and pickups must be regularly cleaned as well, which may involve dropping the wheels out to get at them.

 

I use medium radius insulfrogs on my layout, with a dead section nearly half an inch long, but my running is very good and smooth at low speeds; I would not tolerate anything else as realistic operation is paramount to me!  I believe but cannot quantifiably state that my running is improved by regular, almost daily, use and ongoing cleaning; layouts do not in my experience like being unused for long periods, nor do locos...

[Butler Henderson]

Peco Insulfrogs have a nasty habit of bowing up at the frog, lifting the loco up and meaning wheels that are not on the plastic section are not actually touching a rail - I had a medium radius crossover which my Bachmann Jinty, despite checking all the pick ups were bearing on the wheels correctly, stalled on. Initial response was to add a stay alive to its decoder although I have now replaced it with live frog points

[DCB]

Hi all, i have 2 Hornby 61xxs and both are poor runners stalling on points etc.

I believe they are derived from the old Airfix models and re motored by Hornby.

My question is has anyone found a way to get these locos to perform better.

Cheers

Bob

Meant to say Prarie tanks not Pannier.

No they are rubbish.    The Airfix had a nice motor with a stupidly long armature shaft with a worm massively overhung from the motor bearing and ridiculously coarse gears with masses of sideplay in the chassis which works for about the hour it takes to break the plastic slidebars.  Fitting non traction tyres imporves them greatly but they are still rubbish  I have had multiple attempts to improve these but resorted to using a Triang Hall chassis.. A Bachmann 93XX Chassis should fit. 

The 2000s Hornby is if anything worse with a stupid little motor, and pickups which are next to impossible to get to work again after being disturbed, it does however have see through pony wheels which makes it good as a static model.  I hope later ones are better, ours are 2010 ish, but the running is not in the same league Bachmann  43XX, 57XX, Hornby 42XX etc  or  the Triang chassis Romford wheel Wills 61XX  kit and Triang Chassis Hornby Dublo wheel Grafar 81XX Prairie we use as bankers which the Hornby Prairies were supposed to replace.   A Bachmann 43XX or 93XX Chassis should fit, after all the chassis on real thing were virtually identical just different access holes I believe on the tanks

 

It isn't just these locos, I think. I have a Bachmann 64XX which is lovely thing but keeps stalling on my (insulfrog) points. It's to do with the pick-ups and any suggestions to improve matters would be useful to me also.

Insulfrog points are the problem when using Bachmann and many larger Hornby locos, Points go hump backed with age and the frog becomes the top of the hump so locos with 6 wheel pick up and no springs rock on their centre wheels on the unpowered frog.  For easily laid temporary dining table layouts use Dead Frogs and loco like the Hornby Jinties which have only 4 wheel pick up and undersize centre wheels or 6 wheel pick up and sprung trailing axles, [though you may need to let the trailing axle drop more than standard].  If you want to run proper realistic models instead of Perky the pug from the junior range use Live frogs and your Bachmann 64XX will run beautifuly and the Oxford 14XX better still.

Edited January 28, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[Butler Henderson]

No they are rubbish.    The Airfix had a nice motor with a stupidly long armature shaft with a worm massively overhung from the motor bearing and ridiculously coarse gears with masses of sideplay in the chassis which works for about the hour it takes to break the plastic slidebars.

Strange - I had one for years without any problems arising working its turn on an intensive suburban branch.

[The Johnster]

I have an antediluvian Airfix 61xx masquerading as a 5101, and, lack of cab detail apart, am reasonably happy with it.  I have worked it up over the years and it has cast whitemetal buffers, new leading and trailing pony wheels, real coal, glazed windows, a turned brass chimney, etched brass number plates and is on it's 3rd livery, post war G W R unlined green, applied by yours truly.  It runs very well, if a little noisily by modern standards, and slow running and control is comparable to good modern RTR and better than some Hornby models which are less than 10 years old (though I am working on my 2721).  It still has it's original 1979 motor, drive train, and pickups, all of which work perfectly, though of course it will be doomed once the current carbon brushes pack in.  

 

Hopefully the Dapol will be on the market by then, with some of the faults corrected...

[57xx]

Strange - I had one for years without any problems arising working its turn on an intensive suburban branch.

 

Same here, had one running about 10 years on my first layout, it ran absolutely fine.

[Graham456]

Same here, had one running about 10 years on my first layout, it ran absolutely fine.

Well the one I bought in 1980 still goes after thirty seven years ! Along with a much later bought but still Airfix then converted to a 31XX straight framed model. they have a few Hornby sisters. As well

BUT looking forward to the new ones, as they are showing their age!

 

Old but cheep! Just don't expect much from. Something that will be around a fifth of the price of a new one

Edited January 30, 2018 by Graham456

[81C]

Up until last year I was running 6 Airfix one's, one by one they started to fail with worn gear wheels they were replaced with 4 cheap brand new Hornby's

 from a collection they will do till something better comes, they all work fine after an oiling ane a check over.

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, all,

 

I also have a couple of 1980s-era Airfix 61XX class - one renumbered to 5164. They both still run ok, but have always been somewhat noisy when used with my PWM-style controllers. One of them has had its plastic slidebar assembly totally fail. I did cobble together a replacement from parts from a Mainline Manor, but more recently used current Hornby parts to restore it. I've done a similar repair on a Hornby example owned by a friend (which is much quieter than my Airfix ones).

 

Both of mine still have their original wheels, motors and traction tyres and cope well with my Peco Streamline track, which includes a few Insulfrog points.

 

These models do seem to be a mix of both good and bad.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[The Johnster]

The Airfix 61xx was a cutting edge model when it was originally introduced, reasonably well detailed and to scale, and separate handrails and underframe detail moulded into the keeper plate.  Along with models like Airfix's 14xx, and Mainline's J72 and 4MT 4-6-0, they were a bit of a revolution and a massive improvement in running, detail, and finish over the concurrent Triang Hornby offerings.  Running of all these models was pretty good, though haulage on the 4MT was not brilliant, and they heralded  modern RTR standards, which to be honest are far in excess of what most of us, especially me, could achieve with kits or even the best quality ee zee bild scratch!

 

Lima sort went halfway, with very well detailed and finished plastic moulded bodies running on very cheap and nasty plastic chassis.

 

Of these, only the 4MT had backhead detail in the cab, but later introductions went increasingly in that direction as smaller motors that could develop sufficient power (though at the cost of higher revs and more gearing) became available. The 61xx has been improved over the years with new motors/drivetrains and better wheels, but retooling to include cab detail has never been attempted AFAIK.  

 

You could regard the original 61xx as a sort of evolutionary link, 'modern' in it's approach to detail and finish, but very 'traditional' in it's massive cast mazak chassis, open frame motor, and worm/cog drive.  It ran, and runs, very well and I sort of like it's class 37 growl, but nobody would call it quiet.  Locos weren't in those days!