Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Caley Jim]

What was the principal behind putting the driven wheels on a separate chassis from the boiler?  Was it for ease of access for maintenance to the valve gear?

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

What was the principal behind putting the driven wheels on a separate chassis from the boiler? 

 

I'd supposed it was to get the combination of very large driving wheels and low centre of gravity. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Compound2632

[Annie]

48 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

What was the principal behind putting the driven wheels on a separate chassis from the boiler?  Was it for ease of access for maintenance to the valve gear?

 

Jim

 

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd supposed it was to get the combination of very large driving wheels and low centre of gravity. 

Brunel gave out a list of specifications to locomotive manufacturers that specified among other things a low axle weight as well as a low piston speed.  To cut a long story short it was an impossible list that was only possible to achieve by creating such machines as 'Thunderer' and 'Hurricane'.  Russell Volume 1 has a bit to say about it and outlines Brunel's specifications.   I'd go into more detail, but my eyes were playing me tricks with the glossy pages and besides I was running low on incense and blessed white candles.

[DonB]

 

1 hour ago, Annie said:

Brunel gave out a list of specifications to locomotive manufacturers that specified among other things a low axle weight as well as a low piston speed.  To cut a long story short it was an impossible list that was only possible to achieve by creating such machines as 'Thunderer' and 'Hurricane'.  Russell Volume 1 has a bit to say about it and outlines Brunel's specifications.   I'd go into more detail, but my eyes were playing me tricks with the glossy pages and besides I was running low on incense and blessed white candles.

 

Annie, the picture at the top of this page of the Van with outside framing made me blink. an optical delusion causing me to see the van sides to be dished inwards, then as I looked harder the sides seemed to wobble before I convinced myself they really were just flat and upright. Phew!

 

Your note, copied above,  gave me problems too, a criticism of The Great Man, my sympathy re. the eyesight difficulties, and the need to stifle a guffaw at the incense and candles comment!  Thank you for your interesting posts.

Edited November 1, 2021 by DonB
typo

[Compound2632]

Several of those early vehicles have been recreated by @MikeOxon using interesting 3D printing techniques.

[Annie]

4 hours ago, DonB said:

Your note, copied above,  gave me problems too, a criticism of The Great Man, my sympathy re. the eyesight difficulties, and the need to stifle a guffaw at the incense and candles comment!  Thank you for your interesting posts.

Should you want a bridge built Brunel was definitely your man, but locomotives not so much.  At least he was wise enough to recognise his deficiencies and employ Gooch.  And doesn't everyone light candles and incense when reading Russell?  I suppose those post- Reformationist grouping chaps don't, but they're an odd lot anyway.

 

4 hours ago, DonB said:

Annie, the picture at the top of this page of the Van with outside framing made me blink. an optical delusion causing me to see the van sides to be dished inwards, then as I looked harder the sides seemed to wobble before I convinced myself they really were just flat and upright. Phew!

I know, -the woodwork on that outside framed closed 3rd class coach is absolutely amazing.  Yes it was originally a coach for carrying people which must've been pretty grim, but later they were modified to become milk and perishable goods vans. 

 

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Several of those early vehicles have been recreated by @MikeOxon using interesting 3D printing techniques.

Yes Mike's blog makes interesting reading.  Normally I don't get to run some of my really early Broad Gauge vehicles, but getting 'Thunderer' put back together seemed like a good opportunity.

[Annie]

9 hours ago, DonB said:

Your note, copied above,  gave me problems too, a criticism of The Great Man, my sympathy re. the eyesight difficulties, and the need to stifle a guffaw at the incense and candles comment!  Thank you for your interesting posts.

Should you want a bridge built Brunel was definitely your man, but locomotives not so much.  At least he was wise enough to recognise his deficiencies and employ Gooch.  And doesn't everyone light candles and incense when reading Russell?  I suppose those post- Reformationist grouping chaps don't, but they're an odd lot anyway.

 

9 hours ago, DonB said:

Annie, the picture at the top of this page of the Van with outside framing made me blink. an optical delusion causing me to see the van sides to be dished inwards, then as I looked harder the sides seemed to wobble before I convinced myself they really were just flat and upright. Phew!

I know, -the woodwork on that outside framed closed 3rd class coach is absolutely amazing.  Yes it was originally a coach for carrying people which must've been pretty grim, but later they were modified to become milk and perishable goods vans. 

 

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Several of those early vehicles have been recreated by @MikeOxon using interesting 3D printing techniques.

Yes Mike's blog makes interesting reading.  Normally I don't get to run some of my really early Broad Gauge vehicles, but getting 'Thunderer' put back together seemed like a good opportunity.

 

EDIT:  Stupid forum software did a crash out and posted my scribblings thrice.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Annie
Thrice afflicted unlucky fortune

[Annie]

4 hours ago, DonB said:

Your note, copied above,  gave me problems too, a criticism of The Great Man, my sympathy re. the eyesight difficulties, and the need to stifle a guffaw at the incense and candles comment!  Thank you for your interesting posts.

Should you want a bridge built Brunel was definitely your man, but locomotives not so much.  At least he was wise enough to recognise his deficiencies and employ Gooch.  And doesn't everyone light candles and incense when reading Russell?  I suppose those post- Reformationist grouping chaps don't, but they're an odd lot anyway.

 

4 hours ago, DonB said:

Annie, the picture at the top of this page of the Van with outside framing made me blink. an optical delusion causing me to see the van sides to be dished inwards, then as I looked harder the sides seemed to wobble before I convinced myself they really were just flat and upright. Phew!

I know, -the woodwork on that outside framed closed 3rd class coach is absolutely amazing.  Yes it was originally a coach for carrying people which must've been pretty grim, but later they were modified to become milk and perishable goods vans. 

 

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Several of those early vehicles have been recreated by @MikeOxon using interesting 3D printing techniques.

Yes Mike's blog makes interesting reading.  Normally I don't get to run some of my really early Broad Gauge vehicles, but getting 'Thunderer' put back together seemed like a good opportunity.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Annie said:

And doesn't everyone light candles and incense when reading Russell? 

 

There are those who bow three times a day in the direction of Crewe or go into an ecstatic trance while meditating on pictures of Johnson singles. It's a multicultural world, pre-grouping.

[Annie]

Today's GWR cheer up picture:  The Slough Engineer’s Saloon coupled behind 0-6-0 pannier tank No 2026.  These particular engineer's saloons have fascinated me though as they are converted from Bristol and Exeter Railway carriages.  I would imagine a drawing survives somewhere at Didcot showing how the conversion was done and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see it.

 

[Compound2632]

New underframe, I think.

[Edwardian]

20 hours ago, Annie said:

So I found 'Thunderer' and put it together.  For some reason Steve Flanders didn't make the tenders for 'Thunderer' and 'Hurricane',  though he might have been working with such drawings and information was available at the time which didn't include the tenders.  Almost all of the Broad Gauge models he made were done during 2004-2005 and basically if there was a published drawing available at the time that wasn't too difficult to get hold off it got turned into a 3D digital model for Trainz TS2004.  This has lead to the odd circumstance of four Broad Gauge tender models being made because their drawing were available, but sometimes they don't fit the Broad Gauge locomotives that ended up being modelled at the same time all that well. 

I did some adjusting and fettling on the 6 wheel tender that was the best fit so its coupling distance was reasonably Ok.  The texturing is all tiny low resolution patches so I left those well alone.  I haven't had a look at the incredible 4 wheeled steampunk power plant yet or the boiler on wheels so I don't really know if any improvements can be made.

 

My Cornwall 1880s layout is still somewhat of a trashed scenic disaster after having been moved from TS2012 to TANE and then to TRS19 and I haven't properly adjusted the environmental lighting yet, but the trackwork is all fine so I could give 'Thunderer' a run.  I have to say though that it certainly running better than the prototype ever did to make the climb up to Perranwell from Truro.

 

 

The coaches that made up the train, these are all old TS2004 models.

 

 

 

 

And we're off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a model if Thunderer in the museum at Dodcot.

 

What with such Broad Gauge engines and Cramptons, really there is no need for exaggeration to devise a 'Steam Punk' locomotive!

 

Mind you, Gooch came not a moment too soon! 

 

12 hours ago, Annie said:

And doesn't everyone light candles and incense when reading Russell? 

 

As you have been doing, lead them out of darkness, gently to the Light.

 

1 hour ago, Annie said:

Today's GWR cheer up picture:  The Slough Engineer’s Saloon coupled behind 0-6-0 pannier tank No 2026.  These particular engineer's saloons have fascinated me though as they are converted from Bristol and Exeter Railway carriages.  I would imagine a drawing survives somewhere at Didcot showing how the conversion was done and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see it.

 

 

Wonderful picture in so many ways.

 

Now, what are those protrusions on the roof?

 

Similar sized protrusions (probably for an entirely different function) may be espied on the Pickering built/rebuilt coaches of the K&ESR, I suspect leading Brian Hart in his book to caption an oblique views of Pickering bogie coaches as 4 and 6-wheel LSWR coaches having oil lamps changed.  

 

 

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Now, what are those protrusions on the roof?

 

The ones at the ends look like baffles or shrouds around lamps. The lamps are presumably for inspection purposes; the baffles don't look to be reflectors since they're dull on the insides as well as out, so possibly simply to screen the light, or to protect it from draughts, if it is a gas lamp. The underframe appears to be carrying a gas cylinder and a battery box, so it could be electrically lit (replacing earlier gas lighting, replacing original oil lamps) but with a gas stove for the inspection team's cooking.

 

I don't think that helps with the Pickering carriage! Could it be a fixed tail-lamp? EDIT: on further consideration, I think it's an object in the background, not on the carriage at all, any more than the box-like protrusion apparently on the 4-wheeled brake-ended carriage on the left.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The ones at the ends look like baffles or shrouds around lamps. The lamps are presumably for inspection purposes; the baffles don't look to be reflectors since they're dull on the insides as well as out, so possibly simply to screen the light, or to protect it from draughts, if it is a gas lamp. The underframe appears to be carrying a gas cylinder and a battery box, so it could be electrically lit (replacing earlier gas lighting, replacing original oil lamps) but with a gas stove for the inspection team's cooking.

 

I don't think that helps with the Pickering carriage! Could it be a fixed tail-lamp? EDIT: on further consideration, I think it's an object in the background, not on the carriage at all, any more than the box-like protrusion apparently on the 4-wheeled brake-ended carriage on the left.

 

I am bound to agree, on both counts, which doesn't solve my K&ESR query!

 

Trouble is, these things seem to crop up on different photos from different angles, so I'm not sure they can be distant objects, because it struck me too that this might be the case!

 

Here is the same train on the same occasion, now more clearly revealed as bogie coaches, not LSWR short coaches.  The angle has changed, but the protrusion remains!

 

 

These are the 1905-built Pickerings for the Headcorn Extension (not the Pickering rebuilds of the Hurst Nelson 4-wheelers) so I don't actually need to model them.  They are also seen below, in the Headcorn platform, on another occasion, but, again, with the protrusions visible.  Oddly, the short coaches on what must be the Robertsbridge service also seem to have them!

 

[Annie]

Yes I think they are lamps of some kind, - shrouded so that the light is shown in one direction only.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

There is a model if Thunderer in the museum at Didcot.

Yes I posted a picture of it on the previous page James.  It really was an amazing mechanical beast of a thing.  I also have a digital model of 'Hurricane' which I need to sort out and put together.  Of 'Hurricane' Russell comments that it was an engine that could run fast and that it completed 10,527 miles before being withdrawn and dismantled; - so it seems that it wasn't entirely useless.

 

 

 

[Annie]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Here is the same train on the same occasion, now more clearly revealed as bogie coaches, not LSWR short coaches.  The angle has changed, but the protrusion remains!

 

Periscopes?  

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Annie said:

Yes I think they are lamps of some kind, - shrouded so that the light is shown in one direction only.

 

 

Yes I posted a picture of it on the previous page James.  It really was an amazing mechanical beast of a thing.  I also have a digital model of 'Hurricane' which I need to sort out and put together.  Of 'Hurricane' Russell comments that it was an engine that could run fast and that it completed 10,527 miles before being withdrawn and dismantled; - so it seems that it wasn't entirely useless.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, been away too long!

 

Actually, that might be a steam whistle from the looks of it (GW liked whistle guards, as we know) perhaps when the Engineers wanted to give instructions to the driver!

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Annie said:

Periscopes?  

 

My thought exactly - beat me to it! But why?

Edited November 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Annie]

I've put 'Hurricane' together, but I haven't done a test run yet as I became a little distracted by making scenery repairs.  TRS19 has rendered a good deal of what was perfectly nice in TS2012 into becoming poorly painted cardboard cutouts due to the differences in environmental lighting.  It's only now that I've wanted to make a start back with working on my Cornwall 1880 layout again after being very much disheartened by the mess that TRS19 had made of it.

 

[Tom Burnham]

The K&ESR Pickerings had acetylene lighting, so the gubbins on the roof may have been a gas generator placed somewhere where it wouldn't do much damage if it exploded. The builders' photos of the carriages don't seem to show anything out of the ordinary on the roof.

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

The K&ESR Pickerings had acetylene lighting, so the gubbins on the roof may have been a gas generator placed somewhere where it wouldn't do much damage if it exploded. The builders' photos of the carriages don't seem to show anything out of the ordinary on the roof.

 

Yes, I had noticed that only the in-service shots seem to show this.

 

I think you must be onto something with that explanation.  The first picture shows someone apparently attending to it. On one of the coaches it appears at the brake end, but on the other it is at the non-brake end, which suggests it is unrelated to the Guard's functions. 

 

There is a square frame, or lip, which looks as if intended to locate in a square hole in the roof, which is presumably the access to the generator.  The cover is rather generous in its length and must have been lowered when the train set off as it cannot surely be consistent with the loading gauge!

[Northroader]

I would suggest they were a bright idea from the colonel which didn’t quite come off. The placing and the way they are shielded would say they’re intended to act as a tail lamp on the last vehicle, fuelled by acetylene gas. The gas was made in a rectangular box mounted on the coach end at waist level. You put lumps of calcium carbide from the ironmongers in the box and added water. It was quite common in bike lamps.

you could put the components in a glass bottle, with a screw top cap, then retire some distance (so I’m told) which could annoy the neighbours if they had the washing out, as shards of broken glass and black goo would be flying everywhere (not that I was anywhere near, you’ll understand)

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Northroader said:

I would suggest they were a bright idea from the colonel which didn’t quite come off. The placing and the way they are shielded would say they’re intended to act as a tail lamp on the last vehicle, fuelled by acetylene gas. The gas was made in a rectangular box mounted on the coach end at waist level. You put lumps of calcium carbide from the ironmongers in the box and added water. It was quite common in bike lamps.

 

The Lynton & Barnstaple used that system. Thinking about it, I'm sure the primary reason was that the line was remote from a Pintsch gas plant and the company couldn't afford or justify the cost for a fleet of only 17 carriages, that would only require lighting at the seriously off-peak times of year, though a secondary reason might be the difficulty of fitting and accessing a gas cylinder under the frames. 

 

I'm not sure how the restored / reproduction carriages are lit; possibly not at all. 

[Northroader]

I’ve had a ride in them, but it was daylight, and I never looked up. They do have a housing on the roof, presumably electric from somewhere?

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I’ve had a ride in them, but it was daylight, and I never looked up. They do have a housing on the roof, presumably electric from somewhere?

 

This is the best I've got of the interior fitting, from the first class coupe of No. 17:

 

 

Here scroll down to 14 Jan 2015 to see wiring being installed...