Regency Rails - Georgian, Williamine & Early Victorian Railways

[Regularity]

6 hours ago, runs as required said:

early railways were dangerous on the downgrades

I suspect we could modify that slightly: early railways were even more dangerous on the downgrades, but generally dangerous due to the chaos arising from the novelty of the new technology.

[runs as required]

47 minutes ago, Regularity said:

I suspect we could modify that slightly: early railways were even more dangerous on the downgrades, but generally dangerous due to the chaos arising from the novelty of the new technology.

By novelty of the new technology do you mean in 1825?  Because rail technology had already existed in Britain for over 300 years! 

It was less brittle wrought iron rails and steam locomotives that were the novelty.  And despite the 'mixed traffic', I'd have thought them considerably less dangerous than the excessively steep down hill runs with loaded chaldrons to the Tyne west of Gateshead.

dh

 

edit

Of course the first rail disaster is often cited as the Newbottle explosion on the banks of the Wear in 1815  when the crowd celebrating the victory at Waterloo goaded the driver of Brunton's Steam Horse (my logo) to gallop at around 30mph along the rails by recklessly holding down the safety valve.

I think 15 souls, many of them children lost their lives.

Edited October 12, 2019 by runs as required

[Northroader]

1 hour ago, Caley Jim said:

Both the GNoSR line out of Aberdeen and the Ardrossan and Johnstone  Railway started life as canals which were then converted into railways. 

 

Jim

I like the Ahrons quote on the GNoSR:

”part of it between Aberdeen and Inverurie was not originally a railway, but a canal, and the Company thoughtfully scooped in the canal, baled it out, and made their line on the remains. After which, some people in that district bethought themselves, when too late, that the canal would have been infinitely preferable.”

 

Moving on to early operation, here’s the man doing it, at London Bridge station of the London and Greenwich, first in London if you discount the Euston Square Peter Pan Line.  Its a German engraving, so the loco boilers have become beer barrels.

 

Then on to another first railway into a big city, the Dublin and Kingstown terminal at Westland Row as was. It strikes me that it is a very tempting setting to make a really compact model layout, just as it is?

 

 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

I like the Ahrons quote on the GNoSR:

”part of it between Aberdeen and Inverurie was not originally a railway, but a canal, and the Company thoughtfully scooped in the canal, baled it out, and made their line on the remains. After which, some people in that district bethought themselves, when too late, that the canal would have been infinitely preferable.”

Another quote I recall from him was 'The great North of Scotland Railway was a terrible Railway.  In fact it had no right to be called a railway', or words to that effect (I don't have the book to hand so am quoting from memory).

 

Jim

[Hroth]

As someone who also likes canals, I quite like that quote!

 

[Nearholmer]

Specially for people who like railways and canals, a tunnel containing one of each, and in the early Victorian period. http://www.victorianweb.org/technology/railways/123.html

 

And, the other end http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=140189

 

In the early 1980s, I was involved in a project to build an electrical facility in a huge pit that exists from surface to railway level in the middle of the tunnel, and at the bottom of said pit were the remains of a large "egg end" boiler, all overgrown with Kent jungle, which I was told supplied steam to the engines that were used to pump the canal dry.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

13 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

 

 

With modern techniques like 3D printing and simplification of valvegear, it shouldn't be difficult to create representatives of early locos.  I wonder if anyone has looked into using the mechanism from the Bachmann Wickham Trolley as an even smaller motor bogie than the Black Beetle ilk?

 

When models go back to horse propulsion, then the only way is probably to use the Faller roadway system...

 

 

Well in a fit of enthusiasm I acquired a Bachmann Wickham Trolley for my layout. The only reason being that I liked the idea of it.

 

In service it has been a rather delicate beast seeming to be uncertain of slight gradients at times and prone to slippage unless the rails are quite clean. In short (and it is), it isn't the most powerful source of traction.

 

Which brings us back to the problem of reliable and strong motive  in small scale representations of the very early engines. The cost of coal, or hay and oats, required that the engines, or horses of the proto-railway period were expected to pull a reasonable load of wagons as were their successors. If you wanted to increase the haulage rate of wagons then you had to add horses which can mean adding extra people to control them so costs go up while increases in haulage rates are minimal.  But the very earliest locomotives, even at their most primitive were capable of better haulage capacity and could still be worked by minimal numbers of drivers. 

 

But that aside I can't see (at least in OO) that the Bachmann engine would be capable of being a source of power for a rake of chaldrons. I did try one short experiment to see if it could push a standard open 4 wheel wagon - it found it difficult, and two would be beyond it. I would expect if I was modelling such a proto system that whatever the power source it could pull a proper rake of chaldrons or whatever as the historical operators would expect it to do. That was why I suggested that larger scales represent a better alternative for realistic depiction (or as realistic as our individual modelling skills allow) rather than the smaller ones. But that still ignores the realistic modelling of non locomotive power like draft animals or humans. Probably the least realistic thing in conventional modelling are our human and animal figures which despite the best efforts of our best modellers still remain plainly static in a world where our trains run pretty realistically and the static scenery and buildings sit as if they are meant to be there.           

[Hroth]

To be honest, I imagined as much.  The one I got (thankfully not paying too much for it!) whizzes around most entertainingly but it's in its box and I never thought to get it to push anything about at the time!  The next size up in current RTR is the Hornby Ruston&Hornsby industrial diesel which is tiny in comparison with all but the Wickham but does have the grunt to move quite a few wagons about.  But even so, the size does militate against it, you might be able to motorise a chaldron wagon with it and the wheels would be too wrong!  They are also rather expensive for such experimental bodging...

[Nearholmer]

0 scale or, what always strikes me as perfect for ancients, Gauge 1? 
 

 

[rockershovel]

I suspect this is slightly too late, but seems to include much of the earlier technology - plus rapid technical change, and some of the wonderfully loopy ideas (like steam lifts) which immediately preceded the adoption of electricity as an urban power source. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_Subway

 

The South entrance was actually demolished at the end of the 1980s, I was involved in the project. The sump at the shaft bottom was found to contain the remains of a small steam engine (part of a vertical boiler, and the cylinder castings and valve chests). It was intended to be cosmetically restored and form a centrepiece in the intended development; like many such developments around that time, it was abandoned, passed through several hands and eventually revived in the mid-90s, and what became of the Engine, I never knew. 

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by rockershovel

[whart57]

Once upon a time I had a copy (repro) of Whishaws Railways of Great Britain. It disappeared in a house move unfortunately. I seem to recall that aside from some excellent drawings of 1840-ish locomotives and stock, it also had a chapter on the author's system of "Reciprocating Railways". The idea was to save on track construction by using single track lines efficiently. Anyone know more about it?

[runs as required]

Very intrigued by the suggestion that the Wickham trolley could be disguised to be pre 1825.  Presumably it would have to be two Chaldron waggons or a horse riding on a dandy waggon behind. I'd rig it up as a revolving wall mounted diorama (on a slightly falling grade) over my computer/work shelf.

 

Another technical point could you install the Faller system strip mentioned earlier for the horse installed in between the rails powerng the Wickham?

[RLWP]

34 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Once upon a time I had a copy (repro) of Whishaws Railways of Great Britain. It disappeared in a house move unfortunately. I seem to recall that aside from some excellent drawings of 1840-ish locomotives and stock, it also had a chapter on the author's system of "Reciprocating Railways". The idea was to save on track construction by using single track lines efficiently. Anyone know more about it?

 

Is this it?:

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WrU5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=wishaws+Reciprocating+Railways&source=bl&ots=4DbNoGn2T8&sig=ACfU3U2nOHgeFGysmre0SiiEYKm2XH7tCA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwib9-mRlZnlAhUxVBUIHU24CEYQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=wishaws Reciprocating Railways&f=false

 

Richard

[Compound2632]

The "reciprocating railway" is founded on a boundless optimism that any regular railway traveller will instantly recognise as grossly misplaced.

 

It also overlooks the rather crucial point that, for the most part, wayside stations have always been sited on considerations of traffic potential rather than operational convenience. (There are exception such as Corrour, of course.)

[Hroth]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I suspect this is slightly too late, but seems to include much of the earlier technology - plus rapid technical change, and some of the wonderfully loopy ideas (like steam lifts) which immediately preceded the adoption of electricity as an urban power source.  

 

Steam lifts sounds a bit bonkers, but hydraulic lifts are perfectly ok.

 

Although much ahead of the period of this thread, the Mersey Railway stations at Hamilton Square and James Street, opened in 1886, had large hydraulic lifts (the "Flying Ballrooms") to bring passengers to and from the platforms to street level.  The tower for the hydraulic accumulator is still present at Hamilton Square, the one at James Street was destroyed by the Luftwaffe in the May Blitz of 1941.

 

 

https://www.icevirtuallibrary.com/doi/abs/10.1680/imotp.1886.21163

 

Both sets of lifts were converted to electricity when the railway itself was electrified.

 

[Compound2632]

I do like the way the tower is designed to look like a later addition to the romanesque station building. I'm wondering if the architect had a particular Italian building in mind?

[whart57]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The "reciprocating railway" is founded on a boundless optimism that any regular railway traveller will instantly recognise as grossly misplaced.

 

 

Though back in 1839 when Whishaw proposed it there weren't any "regular railway travellers", well not many anyway.

[Compound2632]

I'm afraid I forget where I read this, but there was, allegedly, a Manchester newspaper report not long after the opening of the L&MR, of a Manchester cotton mill owner who had been to Liverpool twice on the same day. Even now, that might be thought a bit much!

[whart57]

49 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Steam lifts sounds a bit bonkers, but hydraulic lifts are perfectly ok.

 

 

Hydraulic lifts were surprisingly common, there was even a company in London that supplied pressure to customers for hydraulics in those pre-electric days. The company still exists, it is part of Colt Technology Services. When Colt set up as City of London Telecoms in the early 1990s they bought up this defunct company because it owned wayleaves across most of the Square Mile. The wayleaves were then used to run fibre around London.

[whart57]

2 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

Is this it?:

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WrU5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=wishaws+Reciprocating+Railways&source=bl&ots=4DbNoGn2T8&sig=ACfU3U2nOHgeFGysmre0SiiEYKm2XH7tCA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwib9-mRlZnlAhUxVBUIHU24CEYQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=wishaws Reciprocating Railways&f=false

 

Richard

 

Looks like it

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

 

Hydraulic lifts were surprisingly common, there was even a company in London that supplied pressure to customers for hydraulics in those pre-electric days. The company still exists, it is part of Colt Technology Services. When Colt set up as City of London Telecoms in the early 1990s they bought up this defunct company because it owned wayleaves across most of the Square Mile. The wayleaves were then used to run fibre around London.

 

That would be the London Hydraulic Power Co, they also supplied power for the original cranes in London Docks.

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

That would be the London Hydraulic Power Co, they also supplied power for the original cranes in London Docks.

 

There was a similar outfit in Liverpool (don't know who they were offhand, might have been the Mersey Docks company themselves) who provided hydraulic power for cranes, lifts and capstans around the Albert Dock, and others in the vicinity.  There are still some hydraulic crane jibs attached to the walls of the Albert Dock.  The pumphouse was later used for a while by Granada News when the area was redeveloped in the 1980s/90s.

[runs as required]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm afraid I forget where I read this, but there was, allegedly, a Manchester newspaper report not long after the opening of the L&MR, of a Manchester cotton mill owner who had been to Liverpool twice on the same day. Even now, that might be thought a bit much!

The Manchester newspaper's report would be boasting about a "Manchester Man" striving to better himself. 

The comment in red more accurately describes the "Liverpool Gentleman's" enduring disdain for Manchester. 

 

Having grown up in the cultural ambit of Manchester (Sunday night Halle concerts at Belle Vue circus), I spent 8 years of my life gaining professional qualifications in Liverpool. At first I was shocked and horrified by my young school-leaver student's experience of mid 1950s slumland Liverpool. But by Christmas I enjoyed riding the trams to & from my digs (opposite the tram sheds the Meccano Factory and Littlewoods Pools) on Edge Lane, ridden the Overhead, got used to 9pm pub closing time, trespassed walking the docks from Herculaneum to Seaforth including drawing the wild looking  hydraulic towers

 

Before I could begin working abroad, I had to serve 2 professional practice years with the Corpy. During the early years of the Beatles (Please Please Me, Penny Lane etc.) I remember a good many of the older office and goods warehouse lifts along Dale Street, Castle Street and Victoria Street being hydraulic, our own building in Sir Thomas St certainly was.

The linked Wiki page says the city centre mains hydraulic power circuits closed in 1970. I assumed the MD&HB maintained the pump houses, (and all the powered bollards, dock gates and sluices etc.,), the Corpy the street mains circuits outside Jessie Hartley's Dock wall.

I am ashamed that I never ever queried that the whole dockland world would have failed within two decades.

dh

Edited October 13, 2019 by runs as required

[Compound2632]

Wandering around Wikipedia, I was interested to come across Sir James Allport's key involvement in the London Hydraulic Power Company, following his retirement as General Manager of the Midland Railway Company.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

 

There was a similar outfit in Liverpool (don't know who they were offhand, might have been the Mersey Docks company themselves) who provided hydraulic power for cranes, lifts and capstans around the Albert Dock, and others in the vicinity.  There are still some hydraulic crane jibs attached to the walls of the Albert Dock.  The pumphouse was later used for a while by Granada News when the area was redeveloped in the 1980s/90s.

 

Would that be the pub on the dockside now called The Old Pump House? At least, when I was last in Liverpool..