Jump to content

TurboSnail

TurboSnail's Workbench - 3D Printing and General Bodgery

Recommended Posts

That's a great model Gareth, especially in such a small scale. Is is a kit or scratchbuilt?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Rain has stopped play on the first of a number of planned excursions this summer - a day out at the KWVR. Well, rain and the fact that the BTCC is on today... I'm working in Leeds for the summer, so I thought I'd use the chance to do a few railway-related things in the area, including the KWVR, walking some of the Settle-Carlisle line, maybe a trip over to the Manchester museum of something-or-other to see some of their exhibits. If anyone knows of anything else worth seeing in the area, do let me know. Anyway, now I get to look forward to the KWVR until next Sunday...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The chassis doesn't need to be working. There are plenty of chassis out there that can be put in one of the coaches but an easyish solution is one I've used on a number of smaller tender locos and that is to strip down a Dapol Terrier and use it as a tender drive. It will easily fit inside this tender.

Below is a SER O Class and the cut down chassis that powers it. You remove the body and trim the footplate back as much as possible. All wheels are driven so just unscrew the bolts holding the coupling rods on. You don't need to touch the workings at all. It may look daunting but I saw it as a solution and got the craft knife out. I made it up as I went along and wrote an article for the NGS Journal. I know there are now many Terriers both here and abroad that have sacrificed themselves to tender drives. For the loco wheels have a look on ebay etc for spares or repair locos. Doesn't matter if they don't work, just look for something with suitable size wheels and have a play to see what you can come up with. My O Class has drivers from a knackered Dapol prairie tank. You don't need to be an expert, just know how to wield a craft knife :)

 

Hmm... for some reason I don't seem to have received a notification of a reply...

 

Wouldn't a Union Mills tender drive do the trick just as well (and at a lower cost, with less waste)? That, of course, would raise the problem of how to do the electrical pick-up bit - for me at least - with one side of the loco chassis needing to be isolated from the other...

 

The loco chassis itself is also a bit of a question for this loco. We've already discusses the wheelbase, and no existing 4-4-0 chassis seems to be accurate enough for it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Wouldn't a Union Mills tender drive do the trick just as well (and at a lower cost, with less waste)? That, of course, would raise the problem of how to do the electrical pick-up bit - for me at least - with one side of the loco chassis needing to be isolated from the other...

 

The loco chassis itself is also a bit of a question for this loco. We've already discusses the wheelbase, and no existing 4-4-0 chassis seems to be accurate enough for it.

Hi, the reason the Terrier chassis works well is the wheelbase, wheel diameter and motor height. It matches the smaller size of these 19th century locos tenders whereas the UM tender drive's wheelbase is too long and won't fit in the smaller tenders and it also suffers from undersize wheels. The UM motor also sits quite high which would mean a seriously high mound of coal to cover it! The UM tender drive does work well though in later locos as tenders grew in size. Regarding cost I've picked up a number of Terriers at around the £40 mark which isn't much more than a UM tender drive There a quite a few out there in poor condition which helps keep the price down. Bottom line is a UM unit will not fit in a tender such as the one we're discussing.

As pick up is not required from the loco it is easier to sort a chassis and being an 4-4-0 building one is simple. You would need to find a couple of suitably sized drivers and a bogie. For a non powered chassis you can make it from plastic and cut 2 slots to take the axles at the appropriate spacing. The trickiest bit is fabricating the coupling rods but basically it is a straight piece with a hole in each end matching the axle spacing.

Building a chassis may sound daunting but using this method means you have a self contained, reliable tender drive and a simple push along loco chassis.

If this becomes available in 'N' I'll post up how I sorted the chassis.

Edited by Gareth Collier
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, the reason the Terrier chassis works well is the wheelbase, wheel diameter and motor height. It matches the smaller size of these 19th century locos tenders whereas the UM tender drive's wheelbase is too long and won't fit in the smaller tenders and it also suffers from undersize wheels. The UM motor also sits quite high which would mean a seriously high mound of coal to cover it! The UM tender drive does work well though in later locos as tenders grew in size. Regarding cost I've picked up a number of Terriers at around the £40 mark which isn't much more than a UM tender drive There a quite a few out there in poor condition which helps keep the price down. Bottom line is a UM unit will not fit in a tender such as the one we're discussing.

As pick up is not required from the loco it is easier to sort a chassis and being an 4-4-0 building one is simple. You would need to find a couple of suitably sized drivers and a bogie. For a non powered chassis you can make it from plastic and cut 2 slots to take the axles at the appropriate spacing. The trickiest bit is fabricating the coupling rods but basically it is a straight piece with a hole in each end matching the axle spacing.

Building a chassis may sound daunting but using this method means you have a self contained, reliable tender drive and a simple push along loco chassis.

If this becomes available in 'N' I'll post up how I sorted the chassis.

 

Eek! and hurrah! in equal measure. I look forward to reading the idiot's guide to converting a Terrier chassis and the other one for scratchbuilding a 4-4-0 chassis in plasticard. Believe me, I'll be monitoring the guide for 'idiotness' and if I don't spot enough of it I'll be in touch ;)

 

As a side note, my ambition one day is to build an LSWR A12, so this guide may be a huge step towards that ambition too (although I understand that the A12 can take a UM motor in its tender so there will be some differences). I'll be taking it very seriously, you can be sure.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eek! and hurrah! in equal measure. I look forward to reading the idiot's guide to converting a Terrier chassis and the other one for scratchbuilding a 4-4-0 chassis in plasticard. Believe me, I'll be monitoring the guide for 'idiotness' and if I don't spot enough of it I'll be in touch ;)

 

I don't have a copy anymore but my guide to converting a Terrier appeared in the NGS Journal 6/11 but basically you remove the body which unclips and you are left with a chassis and a footplate. Then using a craft knife or plastic cutters trim off as much of the footplate as you can ensuring the motor housing is still clipped in. The coupling rods are held on with bolts so just unscrew them and that's it.  

A guide to scratch building a 4-4-0 chassis would be take/make a length of plastic 7mm wide and, say 7mm high (depends how high you want the body to sit) and long enough to cover the wheelbase of the drivers. Cut/file 2 slots wide enough to take the axles and at the right distance apart, drop the wheel sets in and glue a strip of plasticard underneath to hold them in. You can attach the bogie in the same way Farish/Dapol do to this plastic block which may mean trimming a slot one end and pegging it in or attach it direct to the underside of the body. For coupling rods you can use an offcut of brass or a length of rail filed flat then drill a hole each end the same distance as the axle slots. To attach it to the wheels either use the screws that came with the wheels or drill holes and use a shortened track pin. Alternatively the 2mm SA and NBrass offer etched coupling rods and they may be the correct length. If you then want to add brakes, guard irons etc that's up to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just been sent this pic by the printer guy...

 

post-25124-0-34629800-1533111442_thumb.jpg

 

Lots of support removal to do! Once I get hold of the parts anyway... I'm living in Student Accomodation and all the site staff are away for the summer, so post doesn't get sorted - so I've had to get the prints sent elsewhere but I can't go and pick them up until the 11th August as it's a 4-6 hour drive away  :scratchhead:

 

Ah well, I should probably get on with the R class project in the meantime, or the F1 body, or the cakebox entry, or the servo testing, or...

Edited by TurboSnail
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just been sent this pic by the printer guy...

 

attachicon.giff class snip5.JPG

 

Lots of support removal to do! Once I get hold of the parts anyway... I'm living in Student Accomodation and all the site staff are away for the summer, so post doesn't get sorted - so I've had to get the prints sent elsewhere but I can't go and pick them up until the 11th August as it's a 4-6 hour drive away  :scratchhead:

 

Ah well, I should probably get on with the R class project in the meantime, or the F1 body, or the cakebox entry, or the servo testing, or...

 

Oh, but that does look good, and it's setting every acquisitive bone in my body twitching.

 

'F1 body' would be the correct answer to your current quandary!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, but that does look good, and it's setting every acquisitive bone in my body twitching.

 

'F1 body' would be the correct answer to your current quandary!

 

I've just spent rather too much money on the wheels for this, more than the 3D prints cost! It won't be a cheap model unless the laser-cutting investigations go particularly well. 

 

The approximate cost for the OO F class printed bits is about £50 from my 3Dhubs supplier (as Shapeways wanted £85 for it!). It's a bit more than I'd hoped but it is a large(ish) tender engine and I'm working on reducing that. It is about in line with models such as 'Lion' and a lot less than some others! The motorisation bits (wheels, gears etc.) are about another £50 but I need to double check that as it doesn't include all the detail bits.

 

As for the F1, I will probably get round to it soon, but first I'm rearranging the F class for N scale (assuming 1:148 is correct). This mostly involves making all the walls thicker so that they remain strong enough when printed and can get past Shapeway's minimum size requirements. 

 

The N gauge F class (without chassis) from Shapeways would be in the region of £35, but I'll ask the 3Dhubs guy and see if I can get that down a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just spent rather too much money on the wheels for this, more than the 3D prints cost! It won't be a cheap model unless the laser-cutting investigations go particularly well. 

 

The approximate cost for the OO F class printed bits is about £50 from my 3Dhubs supplier (as Shapeways wanted £85 for it!). It's a bit more than I'd hoped but it is a large(ish) tender engine and I'm working on reducing that. It is about in line with models such as 'Lion' and a lot less than some others! The motorisation bits (wheels, gears etc.) are about another £50 but I need to double check that as it doesn't include all the detail bits.

 

As for the F1, I will probably get round to it soon, but first I'm rearranging the F class for N scale (assuming 1:148 is correct). This mostly involves making all the walls thicker so that they remain strong enough when printed and can get past Shapeway's minimum size requirements. 

 

The N gauge F class (without chassis) from Shapeways would be in the region of £35, but I'll ask the 3Dhubs guy and see if I can get that down a bit.

 

N gauge at a scale of 1:148 should be perfect for most of us (certainly for me and Gareth, if he doesn't mind me speaking on his behalf). The estimated cost is not bad, considering I have a coach in my Shapeways cart for £24 (I'm leaving it there fore a while in the desperate hope of a Shapeways discount day!).

 

Forgot to add - definitely an F1 for me please, with the improved Wainwright cab and Maunsell extended smokebox (I'm operating in 1930).

Edited by CarriageShed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just spent rather too much money on the wheels for this, more than the 3D prints cost! It won't be a cheap model unless the laser-cutting investigations go particularly well. 

 

The approximate cost for the OO F class printed bits is about £50 from my 3Dhubs supplier (as Shapeways wanted £85 for it!). It's a bit more than I'd hoped but it is a large(ish) tender engine and I'm working on reducing that. It is about in line with models such as 'Lion' and a lot less than some others! The motorisation bits (wheels, gears etc.) are about another £50 but I need to double check that as it doesn't include all the detail bits.

 

As for the F1, I will probably get round to it soon, but first I'm rearranging the F class for N scale (assuming 1:148 is correct). This mostly involves making all the walls thicker so that they remain strong enough when printed and can get past Shapeway's minimum size requirements. 

 

The N gauge F class (without chassis) from Shapeways would be in the region of £35, but I'll ask the 3Dhubs guy and see if I can get that down a bit.

 

It does all add up, but that's not an out of proportion costs for filling an important gap.

 

1 F for me, please, if you put them on sale, and 2 F1s, if you do one. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the F class variants as far as I can work out are:

  • F class:
    • With/without smokebox rivets (I can't work out when or how many locos received this)
    • Original tender/modified tender (different top layout but otherwise identical, again, I don't know when the modified ones were introduced)
  • F1 class
    • With/without smokebox rivets
    • Original or extended smokebox front

Have I missed any?

 

I should then be able to produce a B1 fairly easily as they are identical to the F1 apart from the tender. I may then backdate and produce an original B class as well, although the B/B1 classes might wait until after other projects unless there is demand.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, D L Bradley in 'The Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway', 1963 says:

Class F original build

1883-1897 (p98); Stirling cab, no dome, steam reverser; Patrick Stirling-similar chimneys (early members), plain cast chimneys (later members); Smith's simple vacuum until 1888, then the automatic system replaced it as servicing came around; Nos 156 & 172 fitted with Westinghouse system.

 

Between May 1892 and April 1903 new boilers built at Ashford and fitted to many engines (p102), similar to the old ones but with deeper fireboxes.

 

Class F1 rebuilds
New domed boilers between 1903-1920: new cylinders and square cabs; but same overall boiler dimensions. Those rebuilt between 1903-1914 had short smokeboxes, but 1915-1920 had extended smokeboxes (p103). All shorter smokeboxes were extended by 1924 (some Class Fs were still domeless even by this date, which is when withdrawals started - p104 - but a few more F1 boilers were added to remaining Fs in 1925). All remaining locos soldiered in until withdrawn.

Rivets
Bradley doesn't mention these in his text.

Fig 50, though shows an early F (no 208 in 1884) and I can't see any rivets in the smokebox.
Fig 51 shows No 240 in 1889 - no rivets
Fig 52 shows No A172 in 1928 - rivets! (and old cab)
Fig 53 shows No 140 in 1903 after rebuilding, no rivets, rebuilt cab
Fig 54 shows No 1249 post-1931/32, rivets, extended smokebox, rebuilt cab

Tenders
Bradley doesn't mention these either.

The figures show three tenders but they all look the same to me. One is empty, the other two well-coaled.
 

It's a bit of a minefield if you're after a specific loco at a specific time, but in general, versions with those variations should cover them all at some time in their lives.

 

I hope that helps :)
Peter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, a mine of information there! That sounds like there's nothing major I've missed then. I guess it comes back to the old advice of modelling a locomotive you have a photo of in that condition, seems like there are a fair few to choose from in the book. I might have to try and get myself a copy of it sometime.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's also Locomotives Illustrated No. 115 South Eastern and London, Chatham & Dover 4-4-0s. Came with a pull-out centre spread of a painting of an F1 with a three-coach birdcage set in Southern days, which is framed on my wall.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Concerning rivets, a quick scan through Bradley shows no Stirling locos in Wainwright livery with snap-head rivets. Those that do have snap-head rivets on the smokebox are seen post WW1 or post-grouping. I suggest that all the F class were build, at Ashford, with flush-head rivets on the smokebox front and wrapper plate. Since some of them would have needed re-boilering before or during Mr. Wainwright's time, I further suggest these repairs left them with flush-head rivets on smokeboxes. I think any F-class that did end up with snap-head rivets would be the few that did not get rebuilt to F1.

 

Going even further on little evidence, I believe that most the F1 started out with flush-riveted smokeboxes and might have obtained snap-head rivets at later boiler changes. 

 

Finally, figure 91 in Bradley shows a sort of cross-over case. It's a B-class that clearly has flush-headed rivets on the smokebox, but those on the front plate and door are visible (possibly burnished bright) while those on the wrapper plate are lost in the paint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, a mine of information there! That sounds like there's nothing major I've missed then. I guess it comes back to the old advice of modelling a locomotive you have a photo of in that condition, seems like there are a fair few to choose from in the book. I might have to try and get myself a copy of it sometime.

 

It's a highly useful book to have. I also have the three LSWR volumes because that's my primary modelling area. With them you'll also get shed allocations for chosen periods in the history of the class (or you can ask me), and they're not especially expensive via our favourite online auction site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had Bradley's SER book from the library many years ago. Was it an F or a B that was in collision with a woodcock and came of worst?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'Railway Liveries of the Southern Railway', Brain Haresnape, has a very dark colour photo of F1 No 1043 in 1937 after repainting and still without its tender - rivets. rebuilt cab, dome, and extended firebox.

 

'Southern Steam 1923-39' in the Bradford Barton series has F1s No 1187 and No ? (p10), No A233 (p13), No A149 (p23), No 1079 and No 1089 (p40), and No 1204 (p63) with all of the above too. There's a Class F No A222 on p8 with short smokebox (still with rivets), half-dome (flat-top), and old cab.

 

All the rivet photos I've seen so far are post-Grouping.

Edited by CarriageShed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, D L Bradley in 'The Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway', 1963 says:

 

Class F original build

1883-1897 (p98); Stirling cab, no dome, steam reverser; Patrick Stirling-similar chimneys (early members), plain cast chimneys (later members); Smith's simple vacuum until 1888, then the automatic system replaced it as servicing came around; Nos 156 & 172 fitted with Westinghouse system.

 

Between May 1892 and April 1903 new boilers built at Ashford and fitted to many engines (p102), similar to the old ones but with deeper fireboxes.

 

Class F1 rebuilds

New domed boilers between 1903-1920: new cylinders and square cabs; but same overall boiler dimensions. Those rebuilt between 1903-1914 had short smokeboxes, but 1915-1920 had extended smokeboxes (p103). All shorter smokeboxes were extended by 1924 (some Class Fs were still domeless even by this date, which is when withdrawals started - p104 - but a few more F1 boilers were added to remaining Fs in 1925). All remaining locos soldiered in until withdrawn.

 

Rivets

Bradley doesn't mention these in his text.

 

Fig 50, though shows an early F (no 208 in 1884) and I can't see any rivets in the smokebox.

Fig 51 shows No 240 in 1889 - no rivets

Fig 52 shows No A172 in 1928 - rivets! (and old cab)

Fig 53 shows No 140 in 1903 after rebuilding, no rivets, rebuilt cab

Fig 54 shows No 1249 post-1931/32, rivets, extended smokebox, rebuilt cab

 

Tenders

Bradley doesn't mention these either.

 

The figures show three tenders but they all look the same to me. One is empty, the other two well-coaled.

 

It's a bit of a minefield if you're after a specific loco at a specific time, but in general, versions with those variations should cover them all at some time in their lives.

 

I hope that helps :)

Peter

 

Good work there, Peter, thanks

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the KWVR is definitely worth a visit (pun not intended). They were running a 'Vintage' day today, which involves some of the pre-grouping stock, including the old L&Y carriages. Lovely countryside for walks too, although the Worth Way is a bit disappointing between Damems and Keighley as it just follows roads. Got to see the 'Green Dragon' from the Railway Children film as well, which my family had on VHS when I was young(er) - although it is being rebuilt at the moment so does look a bit sorry for itself. 

 

post-25124-0-19349300-1533496118_thumb.jpg

 

post-25124-0-44716400-1533496212_thumb.jpg

 

post-25124-0-14802300-1533496334_thumb.jpg

 

post-25124-0-22153900-1533496575_thumb.jpg

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the KWVR is definitely worth a visit (pun not intended). They were running a 'Vintage' day today, which involves some of the pre-grouping stock, including the old L&Y carriages. Lovely countryside for walks too, although the Worth Way is a bit disappointing between Damems and Keighley as it just follows roads. Got to see the 'Green Dragon' from the Railway Children film as well, which my family had on VHS when I was young(er) - although it is being rebuilt at the moment so does look a bit sorry for itself. 

 

attachicon.gifP1000194.JPG

 

attachicon.gifP1000156.JPG

 

attachicon.gifP1000164.JPG

 

attachicon.gifP1000162.JPG

 

     I love the line, whenever I visit home I always make a point of trying to get up to it. Hopefully next time I'm up I'll actually manage! Glad to hear you've enjoyed your day out there, though; there's so many interesting items of rolling stock, and at Haworth there's often plenty of old magazines on offer in return for donations. I stick a fiver in once and walked away with plenty of interesting publications!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The N gauge (1:148) version is now ready (in original tender, no smokebox rivets form). Spot the difference to the OO version in previous posts!

 

I've checked with the printer who did the OO version and it looks like it will be around £25, so a bit cheaper than the Shapeways one but I'm not sure how different the materials are. I want to check the quality of the prints before I make it generally available, so it will be after I get back home this Friday to check the OO version.

 

post-25124-0-39279800-1533642430.jpg

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The contents of my workbench has been entirely non-modelling related for the last couple of days. I'm going to be leading on a summer camp for the next week and a bit, so I've had to fix my guitar and test build a lego torch making activity I'll be running, as well as making some coasters that I owe someone as a wedding present (many coats of oil and varnish to go...).

 

All of that is a rather roundabout way of saying I won't be doing much modelling for a while, although I hope to use some of the small amount of downtime I will have to work out how I'm going to get the F class models out to people who want them - and how the costs will work out! I'll post some more photos of the F class when I get home tomorrow and get my first good look at it, I'm really excited for that, hopefully I haven't built it up too much in my head...

 

post-25124-0-82531800-1533815678_thumb.jpg

 

post-25124-0-60367400-1533815694_thumb.jpg

 

post-25124-0-55013900-1533815709_thumb.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.