Fort William (old) -signalling

[Pacific231G]

This may be a slight long shot but does anyone happen to have details of the signalling controlled by the old Fort William box before the terminus  was moved up the line. I know that the single line leading to the station was effectively used as a head shunt for the goods yard, presumably as far as the entry trident of home signals protecting the three platform roads, but I undertand that goods trains arriving and departing from the yards had to proceed to the box to pick up or drop the single line token for the section between Fort William and Fort William Junction even though they'd just been shunting on the same metals.

a signal box diagram would be ideal.

 

I was fasciinated by the old Ft. William station when staying in the town during a family holiday in the 1960s. What I remember were the flurries of activiity when trains arrived simultaneously from Glagow and Mallaig and, at quieter times, a diesel shunter quietly shuffling up and down the single line with AFAIR a train of oil tank wagons. As a lover of steam it was the first place where I'd actually found the operation of diesel locos interesting and I have to say that the old station with diesels interested me more than the new station even with steam.

I do have a copy of John McGregor's "All Stations to Mallaig" which says a lot about operations at Fort William but I'd like to know a bit more about how it was all siignalled. For example, I've never seen any sign of a shunting signal to or from the quayside extension siding nor for that matter a trap point protecting the lochside platform from the quays even though these were once used for fish traffic.

[Corrour]

This may be a slight long shot but does anyone happen to have details of the signalling controlled by the old Fort William box before the terminus  was moved up the line. I know that the single line leading to the station was effectively used as a head shunt for the goods yard, presumably as far as the entry trident of home signals protecting the three platform roads, but I undertand that goods trains arriving and departing from the yards had to proceed to the box to pick up or drop the single line token for the section between Fort William and Fort William Junction even though they'd just been shunting on the same metals.

a signal box diagram would be ideal.

 

I was fasciinated by the old Ft. William station when staying in the town during a family holiday in the 1960s. What I remember were the flurries of activiity when trains arrived simultaneously from Glagow and Mallaig and, at quieter times, a diesel shunter quietly shuffling up and down the single line with AFAIR a train of oil tank wagons. As a lover of steam it was the first place where I'd actually found the operation of diesel locos interesting and I have to say that the old station with diesels interested me more than the new station even with steam.

I do have a copy of John McGregor's "All Stations to Mallaig" which says a lot about operations at Fort William but I'd like to know a bit more about how it was all siignalled. For example, I've never seen any sign of a shunting signal to or from the quayside extension siding nor for that matter a trap point protecting the lochside platform from the quays even though these were once used for fish traffic.

 

Here you go Pacific. I you are interested in other WHL diagrams drop me a PE.

 

kind regards,

 

Robert

Fort-William-Stn.m5-u.d.-Rev.2-rot.pdf

[Pacific231G]

Here you go Pacific. I you are interested in other WHL diagrams drop me a PE.

 

kind regards,

 

Robert

Thank you so much Robert. This is exactly what I've been wanting. It'll need some interpretation (I'm no expert on BR Signalling) and there are a few symbols I don't understand such as the one  apparently associated with the scotch block on the old pier siding (which I can't actually see in any photos so did  the scotch block become scotch mist when the quayside line bcecame effectively just an extension of the platform?)

I'm also not sure what the "zeros" that the Station GF operates actually do to the three stop signals 19,20,21 that control entry to the platforms. My first thought was some kind of calling on signal but there's nothing apart from the three stop arms on the "trident" so were these locks that had to be cleared at the station before the S.B. could clear the actual signal?  Presumably there had been a locking lever in the S.B. for the releasing crossover that used to exist between the two "bay" platforms.(and from all accounts hardly ever used)  

 

Finally, did the intermediate key token installation enable a token to be released for a goods train or light engine leaving the yard? That would have avoided the situation described by John McGregor where a goods train (or light engine) had to back up the the S.B. to receive the token that would clear them to Mallaig Junction  (and the equivalent for trains arriving. or have I completely misunderstood that.

 

I'm intrigued by the number of shunt signals controlled by the  Loco Shed G.F.and indeed the number of G.F.s for such an apparently simple station but Fort William never fails to surprise.

 

BTW to what year or period does the diagram refer? Was this the final configuration  before the station was demolished to make way for a by-pass?

 

I'll have fun matching this to the detailed maps and photos so many thanks again.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Graham R]

Hi Pacific,

 

Yes, the station ground frame had a dual control (a "slot") on the Home signals 19-21, so that the stationmaster or man in charge could ensure the platform lines were clear (or that standing vehicles had tail lamps placed) and that he was ready to receive a train into a platform. The ground frame originally had 5 levers: 2 controlled the crossover in the dock lines (platforms 2 and 3), 3 to 5 were the "slots" on Homes 19-21, and 1 was the "asking lever" to ask the signalman to release the ground frame using lever 7.   The dock crossover was proposed for removal in 1955, and the asking lever and signalbox release lever were removed at that point. Robert's diagram dates from 1955.

 

Here are the "local instructions" for Fort William from sectional appendices for the LNER and BR period. They provide some answers to your questions. My understanding is that the intermediate key token arrangement allowed a driver to obtain a token from the Fort William signalman, proceed to the yard, then place the token in the intermediate instrument at the shed ground frame while he and/or the yard pilot completed shunting and brake tests. With the key token locked in the intermediate instrument, the Fort William and Mallaig Junction signalmen could continue to work other traffic by co-operating to release tokens at one end or the other as usual. As long as the token was locked in the intermediate instrument, it was not available to unlock the ground frame, so the train was "locked in".

 

When the driver was ready to take his train out of the goods yard, he called the signalman and requested release of his token (by plunging at the same time as the Fort William signalman); he could then withdraw the token and the fireman would use it to unlock the ground frame, reverse the crossover points for the main line, clear the disc signal, wait until the driver had moved the train to the main line, restore the disc and crossover, remove the key from the frame, and finally rejoin the train giving or showing the key to the driver, then the train would proceed to Mallaig Junction. The crossover could thus not be left set for the yard because the key could not be removed from the ground frame unless all levers were normal, and the driver would not move his train without having the token (and if it was forgotten, there would be red faces when they arrived at Mallaig Junction and no further tokens could be obtained until the forgotten key was retrieved).

 

Others with better knowledge will hopefully correct any misconceptions in that explanation. I'd be interested to know if drivers really reversed back to Fort William box to get a token, or if they told their fireman to walk back and fetch it on foot when they were getting ready to leave. Maybe that would depend on the weather and season ...

 

regards

Graham

 

 

[Pacific231G]

Hi Pacific,

 

Yes, the station ground frame had a dual control (a "slot") on the Home signals 19-21, so that the stationmaster or man in charge could ensure the platform lines were clear (or that standing vehicles had tail lamps placed) and that he was ready to receive a train into a platform. The ground frame originally had 5 levers: 2 controlled the crossover in the dock lines (platforms 2 and 3), 3 to 5 were the "slots" on Homes 19-21, and 1 was the "asking lever" to ask the signalman to release the ground frame using lever 7.   The dock crossover was proposed for removal in 1955, and the asking lever and signalbox release lever were removed at that point. Robert's diagram dates from 1955.

 

Here are the "local instructions" for Fort William from sectional appendices for the LNER and BR period. They provide some answers to your questions. My understanding is that the intermediate key token arrangement allowed a driver to obtain a token from the Fort William signalman, proceed to the yard, then place the token in the intermediate instrument at the shed ground frame while he and/or the yard pilot completed shunting and brake tests. With the key token locked in the intermediate instrument, the Fort William and Mallaig Junction signalmen could continue to work other traffic by co-operating to release tokens at one end or the other as usual. As long as the token was locked in the intermediate instrument, it was not available to unlock the ground frame, so the train was "locked in".

 

When the driver was ready to take his train out of the goods yard, he called the signalman and requested release of his token (by plunging at the same time as the Fort William signalman); he could then withdraw the token and the fireman would use it to unlock the ground frame, reverse the crossover points for the main line, clear the disc signal, wait until the driver had moved the train to the main line, restore the disc and crossover, remove the key from the frame, and finally rejoin the train giving or showing the key to the driver, then the train would proceed to Mallaig Junction. The crossover could thus not be left set for the yard because the key could not be removed from the ground frame unless all levers were normal, and the driver would not move his train without having the token (and if it was forgotten, there would be red faces when they arrived at Mallaig Junction and no further tokens could be obtained until the forgotten key was retrieved).

 

Others with better knowledge will hopefully correct any misconceptions in that explanation. I'd be interested to know if drivers really reversed back to Fort William box to get a token, or if they told their fireman to walk back and fetch it on foot when they were getting ready to leave. Maybe that would depend on the weather and season ...

 

regards

Graham

 

fort-william-SA-local-instructions.jpg

Hi Graham

Thanks very much for this additional information. I'll now study it at my leisure.

According to John McGregor ,who while growing up in Fort William was clearly a keen and informed observer of the actual activities there, arriving and  departing goods trains did indeed run up the main line to Fort William S.B. to relinquish or collect their tokens . From his favourite viewing  spot on the batlemented retaining wall of the old graveyard he describes how

"all scheduled goods trains and any other main line workings  coming into Fort William kept to the through road and passed out of sight down the shore to surrender their last tablet at the town signall box, They then backed into the yards- or were drawn there by a pilot, leaving the train engine  to follow- over the points at the level crossing; these gave access to the long loop/neck that ran all the way to the battlements and allowed final entry to sidings and servicing. Outgoing freights followed a similar procedure. They drew out along the neck, reversed cautiously down to the town box to collect the essental tablet and departed on the main." All stations to Mallaig (1982) final paragraph of Chapter 1 

Given the thoroughness of McGregor's day by day observations over several years and all seasons,  I think that if loco crews were cheating he'd have noticed it. Presumably though, when departing goods trains backed up to the S.B, their firemen would have had to walk down the train to the box to collect the token as they'd otherwise have fouled the station. 

 

From a modelling standpoint it's amazing just how much operation this terminus with just two points at least at the station end - effectively a very large Inglenook sidings for passenger stock-  could generate. .  

 

Many thanks again to both of you for information I've been after for quite some time. .

 

Best wishes

 

David

Edited November 19, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Graham R]

Hi Graham

Thanks very much for this additional information. I'll now study it at my leisure.

According to John McGregor ,who while growing up in Fort William was clearly a keen and informed observer of the actual activities there, arriving and  departing goods trains did indeed run up the main line to Fort William S.B. to relinquish or collect their tokens . From his favourite viewing  spot on the batlemented retaining wall of the old graveyard he describes how

"all scheduled goods trains and any other main line workings  coming into Fort William kept to the through road and passed out of sight down the shore to surrender their last tablet at the town signall box, They then backed into the yards- or were drawn there by a pilot, leaving the train engine  to follow- over the points at the level crossing; these gave access to the long loop-######-neck that ran all the way to the battlements and allowed final entry to sidings and servicing. Outgoing freights followed a similar procedure. They drew out along the neck, reversed cautiously down to the town box to collect the essental tablet and departed on the main." All stations to Mallaig (1982) final paragraph of Chapter 1 

Given the thoroughness of McGregor's day by day observations over several years and all seasons,  I think that if loco crews were cheating he'd have noticed it. Presumably though, when departing goods trains backed up to the S.B, their firemen would have had to walk down the train to the box to collect the token as they'd otherwise have fouled the station. 

 

From a modelling standpoint it's amazing just how much operation this terminus with just two points at least at the station end - effectively a very large Inglenook sidings for passenger stock-  could generate. .  

 

Many thanks again to both of you for information I've been after for quite some time. .  

 

Hi David,

 

That is interesting. I think the key sentence regarding departing freights is "They drew out along the neck, reversed cautiously down to the town box to collect the essential tablet and departed on the main." In other words they did not use the intermediate token instrument or the crossover at the east end of the yard- they drew out of the yard into the headshunt, reversed back through the yard loop and points 15 after getting signal 16, got a token for Mallaig Junction and left on the main line. Presumably that was simpler than faffing around with the intermediate token machine, or maybe the machine was simply not always reliable and after a few experiences of long delays calling out the lineman to reset the machine, all concerned agreed to quietly ignore the S&T's fancy intermediate token machine and just do things the way that always worked.

 

[Edit - or maybe they only used it when all three lines at the station were occupied, preventing a propelling movement as far as the box by a freight, as you say above].

 

Regarding the explanation I gave, I should have made it clearer that key, key token, and token all mean the same thing in this context (a large metal key which fits only in the key token machines it is designed for, so it cannot be confused with tokens from adjacent block sections; the key also unlocks ground frames whose lock it fits).

 

The reason for the profusion of ground frames was the distance from the signalbox of the points they controlled (there were various distances depending on the period and whether a facing point for passenger traffic was controlled; generalising somewhat, anything more than 350 yards could not be directly controlled from the signalbox). In the days before reliable electrical releases or motor points, where traffic did not justify the staffing and equipment costs of an extra signalbox, control was most easily arranged using ground frames with a physical key release. The signalman kept the key, issuing it when required; there were varying levels of safety interlocks to ensure other trains did not interfere with a train using a ground frame. On single lines, the section token could conveniently act as a ground frame key as well). Even when technology improved, the cost of upgrading arrangements was not always justified; it often had to wait for some kind of area safety initiative with a limited budget which stretched out over the years to suit the manpower available, and would not be done at all unless the existing arrangement delayed traffic, increased costs, or was less safe, rather than just being inconvenient.

 

regards

Graham

Edited November 19, 2018 by Graham R

[Graham R]

Oh and I should add I am not any kind of expert on the West Highland or on Fort William - there are several RMWebbers who know it much better or who worked on the line - so I hope they'll not hesitate to correct or expand my ramblings!

[clachnaharry]

Would that reversing manoeuvre always halt the train at the bracket signal protecting the platform roads , or were there instances where  a particularly long train would require a platform entry signal to be cleared?

[Graham R]

Would that reversing manoeuvre always halt the train at the bracket signal protecting the platform roads , or were there instances where  a particularly long train would require a platform entry signal to be cleared?

 

The NLS map site now has a 1963 survey, 1:1250 map available - a big improvement on the 1901 survey, 1:2500 which was all thy had a couple of years ago! Here and here. Useful to see how the station, goods yard, various sidings and Mallaig Junction were laid out.

 

Measuring from these, the distance between the toe of the yard loop and the signalbox is 450 feet, and Robert's diagram gives the signalbox to bracket signal distance as 62 yards, so that is about 630 feet ... if a box van is about 20 feet over buffers, that's less than 30 wagons after allowance is made for a brake van and the loco. However, most of the loops on the WHR held less than 35 wagons and one or two were down to the mid-twenties (the 1960 BR(Sc) sectional appendix gives the loop lengths).  So I am not sure there would be longer freights leaving Fort William unless there was no other traffic (I think there was the "Ghost" service overnight?) or unless all other trains were shorter and were held for the freight to run straight through.

[Corrour]

Most interesting discussion gents. Pacific sadly I don't have a signal box diagram drawing for Mallaig Junction from 1955, only for after closure of FW box. I do have however an 'M1' track and signalling drawing for MJ and attach for your interest.

 

kind regards,

 

Robert

Fort-William-M1-c1955-rot.pdf

[uax6]

Robert,

 

Its just possible you may be able to answer a question that I have had for the last ten years, and that no-one in work can answer....

 

What does the square on a post symbol mean just to the right of the scotch block? We have that symbol on our board here.........

 

Andy G

[Corrour]

Hi Andy,

 

Its the symbol for a notice board. Normally the text on the board would be included on diagram.

 

kind regards,

 

Robert

[Corrour]

Robert,

 

Its just possible you may be able to answer a question that I have had for the last ten years, and that no-one in work can answer....

 

What does the square on a post symbol mean just to the right of the scotch block? We have that symbol on our board here.........

 

Andy G

Sorry Pacific this is M1 I meant to post....doh!

 

kind regards,

 

Robert

Mallaig-Jcn-M1-1946-rot.pdf

[uax6]

Thanks for that, sadly there is no information on our board to say what the notice board was saying.....

 

Andy G

[uax6]

Hi Andy,

 

Its the symbol for a notice board. Normally the text on the board would be included on diagram.

 

kind regards,

 

Robert

 

Thanks for that, sadly our board has not got any info on what the notice board was saying....

 

Andy G

[Corrour]

Where is the board for Andy? I might have a diagram in my collection that could give info...could you ping me a photo?

 

kind regards,

 

Robert

[uax6]

Littleport. Its a bit of a long shot, but I think somewhere between 1980 and 1992.

 

Andy G

[Corrour]

Ah sorry Andy I only have info for north of border.

 

Notice Boards tend to be for changes in working procedure i.e. between key token and yard working. 

 

kind regards,

 

Robert

[Pacific231G]

Sorry Pacific this is M1 I meant to post....doh!

 

kind regards,

 

Robert

Don't be sorry Robert. The Ft. William M1 diagram is, alongside the M5 diagram you posted yesterday, extremely interesting exspecially as it includes the interlocking (or at any rate the  "pulls") as well as the releasing crossover between plats. 2 & 3  which I think disappeared fairly soon after that, The Mallaig Junction diagram simply adds more to the  whole picture and the M1s are more useful for an overall understanding t than actual S.B. diagrams would be. 

 

Now I know where to look, I've been able to identify he Scotch block (or choke block as the LNER called them) and it is clearly visible in several photos and open despite the rule that it must be closed and padlocked except when stock is  passing it.  I assume it's more to protect the road approach to the steamer pier from anything getting loose on the pier sidings than to protect platform one itself.

 

Very many thanks again.

 

Best wishes

 

David

Edited November 20, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

 

 

Hi David,

 

 I think the key sentence regarding departing freights is "They drew out along the neck, reversed cautiously down to the town box to collect the essential tablet and departed on the main." In other words they did not use the intermediate token instrument or the crossover at the east end of the yard- they drew out of the yard into the headshunt, reversed back through the yard loop and points 15 after getting signal 16, got a token for Mallaig Junction and left on the main line. Presumably that was simpler than faffing around with the intermediate token machine, or maybe the machine was simply not always reliable and after a few experiences of long delays calling out the lineman to reset the machine, all concerned agreed to quietly ignore the S&T's fancy intermediate token machine and just do things the way that always worked.

 

 

regards

Graham

Hi Graham

Reading the notices I think the intermediate token instrument was only used for the purpose you referred to earlier of enabling a goods train holding a token to clear the main line and then free it for other trains by shutting in to the yard and then putting the token in the machine. When shunting was complete the driver would recover his original token as you describe and either proceed en route to Mallaig Junction box or continue shunting the up end of the yards. It's possible that the intermediate machine only held one token and was normally empty. I'm assuming that shunting movements could be signalled by the town box as far as the down end of the two yards without issuing a token to the driver. though a driver would need a token to unlock either of the two ground frames at the up end of the yards beyond the range of the town box. The interlocking would not allow signal 22 to be cleared while such a shunting move was taking place. It would be interesting to see the interlocking diagram for the Ft. William box.

 

I've just dug out some notes from Ian Futers about operations at Ft. William in the 1970s before it closed. They confirm that trains entering or leaving Fort William did have to go to the box to get their tokens so wouldn't have started (or ended) their journeys from the intermediate token machine. I found quite a useful explanation of intermediate electric token instruments here http://www.railsigns.uk/info/etoken1/etoken1.html

 

All this suggests that a fully interlocked model of Fort William would offer a great deal of operation for a station with just two points (if the two yards and loco sheds were "off-stage")

Edited November 21, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Graham R]

I found quite a useful explanation of intermediate electric token instruments here http://www.railsigns.uk/info/etoken1/etoken1.html

 

 

Hi David,

 

Yes I wish I'd remembered about that site before replying, it gives a much clearer explanation! and makes it clear that both the signalmen at the ends of the section have to co-operate to release the token from the intermediate machine, which I had not really understood.

 

I agree, Fort William has a lot of potential.

 

Graham

[Rugd1022]

Random photo found in my hard drive, origin unknown... 

 

 

 

[Pacific231G]

Random photo found in my hard drive, origin unknown... 

 

SCR FW.jpg

Hi Nidge

It was taken by Rob Newman  in August 1973, the caption says "Class 27 diesel electric locomotive No 5359 shunts coaching stock at the old Fort William station on a wet day in August 1973. Today a new station has been built to the rear of the camera position and this site is now a main road"  It is Rob Newman's copyright but he's released it under  a creative commons licence (Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic (CC BY-SA 2.0)  which allows it to be used provided the author is properly credited.

.

[Max Legroom]

Quayside, footpath, railings, track, railings on low wall, road with parked cars including VW T2, house fronts! This is almost too perfect to model. Even if Fort William isn't your thing, you could do a lot worse than incorporate some of the elements in the photo. Very inspirational!

[Pacific231G]

Quayside, footpath, railings, track, railings on low wall, road with parked cars including VW T2, house fronts! This is almost too perfect to model. Even if Fort William isn't your thing, you could do a lot worse than incorporate some of the elements in the photo. Very inspirational!

I model French railways but La Bastide Guillaume is tempting ! You'd probably get much lower railings though.

This photo (Creative Commons by Gregory Deryckere) was taken in Houlgate on the 20km branch from Deauville-Trouville to Dives-Cabourg in 2005. I've seen this line and there are numerous foot crossings between the road and the shore. Deauville-Trouville is a reversing terminus rather like Fort William- though a far larger station- and the rapides from Paris used to have through  coaches that were detached at Deauville and reversed down to Dives-Cabourg. Nowadays the line is purely local with just a regional TER DMU shuttling up and down (but not in the winter) and there is no signalling after the junction, I think the double champignon (bullhead) track has also now been replaced by concrete sleepered Vignoles (FB)

 

 XGC 76528 on the sea wall at Houlgate (CC by Carmos May 2017)

 

At this time of year the line is closed completely and the service reduced to a bus a few times each  week.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Pacific231G