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TomE

3D Printing in 2mm Scale

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Plank detail added to the cupboard doors and top edge - also bevelled the top inside edges a bit to try and reduce the impression of the thickness of the sides. I also added a vague representation of the rope securing loops on the ends. 

 

post-3740-0-89478900-1545834407_thumb.png

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Welcome to the club Richard! Excellent work on the wagon.

 

Plank detail added to the cupboard doors and top edge - also bevelled the top inside edges a bit to try and reduce the impression of the thickness of the sides. I also added a vague representation of the rope securing loops on the ends. 

 

attachicon.gifGER10tonOpen2.png

Nice work Justin, looking forward to seeing how this one turns out!

 

Tom.

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I’m continuing to evaluate different resins and settings on the Photon to try and reach the most consistent results.

There has been a lot of comment on the Facebook groups about how Phrozen Grey Is a good resin for fine detail, and here is a palvan printed with it.

post-1467-0-54131200-1545835380_thumb.jpeg

I am impressed the the sharpness of the detail compared to some other resins tried so far. It also seems to respond well to sanding & a quick waft with a fibreglass brush to take out some minor surface imperfections. It is a little on the brittle side however (possibly a result of not mixing it well enough) and I lost the side strapping below the van body removing the supports, so on the next print I’ll do this before it’s fully cured and still a little of the soft side.

Tom.

Edited by TomE
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Further to the post on the '2mm workbench' thread, here are the 3D printed J3s.

 

post-943-0-99302200-1545866122_thumb.jpg

 

I got another set of Peco Collett wheels and coupling rods as part of my Christmas present so both have now been put on their wheels. The chassis for both of these have been printed as an experiment to see if such things were possible in N gauge. The axles have bearings which are held captive between the chassis and keeper plate. Neither are powered as the plan was to use a modified Union Mills unit. However, I think I might have a go at designing my own - it'll be interesting to see if I can get sufficient weight into the tender.

 

Hopefully the picture shows just what a minefield the J3s could be in terms of details - they both have slightly different tenders as well, just to complicate things further...

Edited by Atso
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Its a dull day today, so this afternoon spent looking at another open wagon project. This time a 12t 6Plank open wagon. The design was originally for the GNR, but adopted and developed for the LNER. According to Tatlow, some 20,000 were eventually built, mostly at Darlington and Doncaster. This is designed to fit the 2mm Scale Association 2-330 9ft wheelbase chassis. I'll do a test print tomorrow to check that all is well.

 

post-14910-0-87566100-1546024354_thumb.jpg

Edited by RichardW1
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Its a dull day today, so this afternoon spent looking at another open wagon project. This time a 12t 6Plank open wagon. The design was originally for the GNR, but adopted and developed for the LNER. According to Tatlow, some 20,000 were eventually built, mostly at Darlington and Doncaster. This is designed to fit the 2nn Scale Association 2-330 9ft wheelbase chassis. I'll do a test print tomorrow to check that all is well.

 

attachicon.gifGNR 12t 6 Plank.JPG

That looks really good Richard but what is wrong with the plastic body kit that the Assocation sells?

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That looks really good Richard but what is wrong with the plastic body kit that the Assocation sells?

Technically, nothing. I must confess not looking at the product list for a while! But it will be nice to compare.

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Please excuse my use of some spare (and free) Peco 9' chassis on these unfitted examples of the Association body kit.

 

post-943-0-64915600-1546032093_thumb.jpg

Edited by Atso
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I seem to have settled down to some consistently successful prints using rotation of 30 degrees in both directions, and an uplift of 5mm off the build support raft.

 

I was getting to the very end of the green resin that was supplied with the printer - decided to try two more open wagons while I was out for New Year's Eve - to my surprise they came out, with only a miniscule amount of resin left in the vat after!

 

post-3740-0-56969600-1546378391_thumb.jpg

 

I've been working on some chassis for these wagons. The refrigerator van has a 9' wheelbase generic chassis with steel solebar conversion kit, and the open wagon the generic 9'6" wheelbase 17' long chassis. This one seems a bit of a different design, and as I merrily used the solebar overlays that included the springs and axleboxes, before adding the steel solebar, it ended up a bit wide and seems to sit a bit oddly under the wagon. I don't know whether to live with it, or take the solebars back off and remove the overlays.

 

post-3740-0-93150900-1546379173_thumb.jpg

 

There is a slight diagonal slump in the open wagon here - I think this is one that was printed at 20 degrees rather than 30 - others are even closer to perfect. It's less noticeable in real life.

 

In any case, pretty pleased with the wagons made this way! I've drawn up some decals for the refrigerator wagon (brown on a yellow body) so hopefully I can get some of these properly finished off soon.

 

J

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I've been working on some chassis for these wagons. The refrigerator van has a 9' wheelbase generic chassis with steel solebar conversion kit, and the open wagon the generic 9'6" wheelbase 17' long chassis. This one seems a bit of a different design, and as I merrily used the solebar overlays that included the springs and axleboxes, before adding the steel solebar, it ended up a bit wide and seems to sit a bit oddly under the wagon. I don't know whether to live with it, or take the solebars back off and remove the overlays.

 

 

You have used the steel solebar conversion designed by Bill Backburn for his style of chassis together with a chassis designed by Bob Jones. Which is why it has come out too wide. The solebar rivets also dont line up as they are for a 10' wheelbase wagon. Did these wagons really have a steel solebar?

 

Chris

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You have used the steel solebar conversion designed by Bill Backburn for his style of chassis together with a chassis designed by Bob Jones. Which is why it has come out too wide. The solebar rivets also dont line up as they are for a 10' wheelbase wagon. Did these wagons really have a steel solebar?

 

Chris

Hi Chris - yes it's the Bill Blackburn steel conversion - but part 2-339, which is supposedly 17' length on 9' wheelbase - so wouldn't be an exact fit anyway, but figured close enough.

 

Makes sense if the chassis was by Bob Jones - certainly a different style. I think I'm decided to take it apart again and remove the solebar overlays, perhaps see if I can cut the springs off neatly, otherwise I'll just use the printed axleboxes and springs I made to use with Bill's chassis designs.

 

Justin

 

EDIT: Yes, the Great Eastern was an "early adopter" of steel underframes. Virtually all of their wagons were steel u/f from something like 1900 onward.

Edited by justin1985

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For the palvan I'd been wondering about including the solebar as part of the print but using etched brake assembly & w Irons etc. Not sure if feasible but worth a try perhaps. 

 

Now Christmas is back in the cupboard & the van CAD is finished I'm hoping to get some printing done this weekend. 

 

Tom.  

Edited by TomE

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There is a slight diagonal slump in the open wagon here - I think this is one that was printed at 20 degrees rather than 30 - others are even closer to perfect. It's less noticeable in real life.

 

In any case, pretty pleased with the wagons made this way! I've drawn up some decals for the refrigerator wagon (brown on a yellow body) so hopefully I can get some of these properly finished off soon.

 

J

 

I have found this thread rather interesting. Despite my reply to that other chap on the VAG, I find myself considering whether getting myself a 3D printer would be a good idea. So can I ask some advice from those who use such a beast:

How well does the quality of the print compare with Shapeways - can you get the same or similar level of detail? The ones above look pretty good to me.

Where is a suitable place to locate them - can they be used in a garage or shed or do they need better protection than that?

Are theire environmental issues - I particularly mean noise and or/smells? Might be important in gaining approval from the Domestic Authorities.

I suppose that the design for the print needs to incorporate supports. My one essay in the field was printed by Shapeways so I didn't have to consider that. Are there any guidelines on how that should be done and where wopuld I find them?

 

Thanks in anticipation,

 

Bill

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I have found this thread rather interesting. Despite my reply to that other chap on the VAG, I find myself considering whether getting myself a 3D printer would be a good idea. So can I ask some advice from those who use such a beast:

How well does the quality of the print compare with Shapeways - can you get the same or similar level of detail? The ones above look pretty good to me.

Where is a suitable place to locate them - can they be used in a garage or shed or do they need better protection than that?

Are theire environmental issues - I particularly mean noise and or/smells? Might be important in gaining approval from the Domestic Authorities.

I suppose that the design for the print needs to incorporate supports. My one essay in the field was printed by Shapeways so I didn't have to consider that. Are there any guidelines on how that should be done and where wopuld I find them?

 

Thanks in anticipation,

 

Bill

 

Hi Bill.

 

To answer some of your questions:

 

  • The quality of the prints from the Anycubic Photon *can* be just as good, if not better, than those from shapeways. I say can because there are a lot of variables that you need to get right to get the best from the printer, so there is a learning curve when it comes to different resins, curing times & optimum alignments of the components to be printed etc. 
  • The ideal place to print would be in a workshop/garage, the only thing to watch for is the temperature. Some resins don't print well at colder temperatures and I've seen some photon owners in colder climates devise heating systems for the printer, although in the UK you should be OK most of the time. 
  • The resin does have an odour, some types more than others, but if you have a well ventilated room you can mitigate that to some extent. As I have no outdoor space, my printer sits on a chopping block on top of the hob with the hob extractor fan on full, plus the kitchen ceiling extractor running and a window open if the weather is good enough. This seems to deal with most of the smell, although again the ideal place would be the workshop/garage. 
  • The supplied software is capable of automatically adding supports but it's not perfect and I quickly found it was less hassle in the long run and resulted in better prints if I added them manually. It's really quite simple once you get the hang of it! 

 

Hope that's useful for you. The Photon is not a perfect product, with a few niggly little issues here and there, but for the price I don't think you can beat it. 

 

Tom. 

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Hi Bill.

 

To answer some of your questions:

 

  • The quality of the prints from the Anycubic Photon *can* be just as good, if not better, than those from shapeways. I say can because there are a lot of variables that you need to get right to get the best from the printer, so there is a learning curve when it comes to different resins, curing times & optimum alignments of the components to be printed etc. 
  • The ideal place to print would be in a workshop/garage, the only thing to watch for is the temperature. Some resins don't print well at colder temperatures and I've seen some photon owners in colder climates devise heating systems for the printer, although in the UK you should be OK most of the time. 
  • The resin does have an odour, some types more than others, but if you have a well ventilated room you can mitigate that to some extent. As I have no outdoor space, my printer sits on a chopping block on top of the hob with the hob extractor fan on full, plus the kitchen ceiling extractor running and a window open if the weather is good enough. This seems to deal with most of the smell, although again the ideal place would be the workshop/garage. 
  • The supplied software is capable of automatically adding supports but it's not perfect and I quickly found it was less hassle in the long run and resulted in better prints if I added them manually. It's really quite simple once you get the hang of it! 

 

Hope that's useful for you. The Photon is not a perfect product, with a few niggly little issues here and there, but for the price I don't think you can beat it. 

 

Tom. 

 

Hi Tom,

 

Thank you for that.

I take it that is this device: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ANYCUBIC-Printer-Masking-Technology-Upgrade/dp/B07DLRGWVV/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1546446468&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=anycubic+photon&psc=1

 

It does look good. I was considering buying a milling machine, but this costs less and might well get more use.

 

Bill

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That’s the one Bill.

 

The same technology but the next step up if you are feeling flush would be the Phrozen Shuffle, but it’s getting on for twice the price of the Photon.

 

Tom.

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I should add that if you are thinking of diving in and have a Facebook account, there is a really useful & helpful Facebook Group called Anycubic Photon DLP Printer Owners that is worth joining.

 

Tom.

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Is there a rule of thumb for 3D printing bodies, as it pertains to getting enough weight in a loco for it to have any meaningful haulage capacity? I would have thought a 3D printed tank loco on an etched chassis would be extremely light, for example.

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I think Tom's comments pretty much hit the nail on the head in terms of printing. I'd actually say that once you've cracked the orientation etc., the prints are better quality than Shapeways.

 

A lot of people on the Facebook group seem to get very exercised about the smell, but I don't really find it that offensive. It's noticeable but not as unpleasant as some make out. I do have a garage workshop to run it in though.

 

Several people do seem to be experimenting with loco bodies, but weight is the real issue. I think JBS recently wrote up his GWR Star, that used a 3D printed smokebox and boiler but other parts in metal and PCB etc. I think that's probably a much better idea than a totally 3D printed body. Designing supports and orientation to fit around more complex shapes of cabs, boilers etc, would also be really really tricky.

 

The printed solebar integral to the body and just etched w irons sounds like a really good solution - and time saving! Reminded me that the 2mm LBSCR wagons on Shapeways are designed that way.

 

J

 

J

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Probably a solid choice for a firebox/tapered boiler/smokebox/saddle assembly - I gather if the supporting structure (where there isn't a cutaway for a gearbox/motor) has that lattice support, then it could be filled with liquid gravity, right?

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Is there a rule of thumb for 3D printing bodies, as it pertains to getting enough weight in a loco for it to have any meaningful haulage capacity? I would have thought a 3D printed tank loco on an etched chassis would be extremely light, for example.

 

At least using the Shapeways method for FUD, you can easily make a thin-walled boiler into which weight can be inserted. Not sure how that plays with the support method which is used on these printers though.

 

I do my coach roofs hollow these days as it seems to stop them warping. Credit goes to David Calderwood for putting me onto this.

 

Chris

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There are alternatives to 3D printing in plastics/resins.   iMaterialise will print things in metal, some metals via a direct sintering process, some via an intermediate print used for investment casting.  Prices are not crazy. 

 

 

"liquid gravity" has a lot of air gaps; doesn't matter on the diameter of the balls, its still a large amount of space lost in air gaps no matter how the balls are packed together.  I think David Eveleigh put the maths in the 2mm magazine some years ago.

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I re-work the roof fan model today, and changed a couple of exposure settings. The model is printed in AC grey resin, over 1200 layers of 0.02mm . Tomorrow i’ll Look at the GN wagon again, I have a couple of ideas to try and counter the bulge in one side. post-14910-0-23807300-1546630817_thumb.jpegpost-14910-0-11484200-1546630859_thumb.jpeg

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Probably a solid choice for a firebox/tapered boiler/smokebox/saddle assembly - I gather if the supporting structure (where there isn't a cutaway for a gearbox/motor) has that lattice support, then it could be filled with liquid gravity, right?

If you use lead balls, don’t set them with PVA glue. The acidity in the glue is reported to react with the metal, causing it to expand, with disastrous results.

John

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