How were OldOak Commom's allocation of Standard 80000 tanks used?

[Tallpaul69]

Hi All,

In Summer 1962 six or so Standard 2-6-4 Tank Locos in the 80000 number series were allocated to Old Oak Common.

What were these used for?

Were they regarded as, and used as, equivalents to the GWR 61xx tanks, or did they have a specific use?

 

Many thanks

Best regards

Paul

[Pannier Tank]

I didn't realise that Old Oak Common had an BR Std 4 Allocation. However on checking my Database I note that 80070, 80098, 80102, 80104, 80131 and 80132 were allocated to 81A in August 1962. 80098 and 80131 left 81A in September 1962 and the other 4 left in December 1962.

[roythebus]

I don't remember seeing any there and I was a fairly regular spotter there in those days., even though I was only 10 at the time! I do remember the first batch of Western diesels there, all in different liveries.

 

[The Johnster]

BR classified the 80xxx as 4MT, the same as the GW large prairies, so the most likely explanation is that the BR locos worked turn and about with 61xx and 5101, though like Pannier Tank I was never aware that 80xxxx were ever allocated to the London end of the WR.  Landore inherited some from Paxton St in Swansea, but Old Oak is news to me! 

 

OTOH the locos were only there for a short period.  ‘98 and ‘131 may well have only been ‘paper’ transfers that never actually spent anytime at the shed, and frankly I’m dubious about the others (cue avalanche of photos proving me wrong!).

Edited June 15, 2019 by The Johnster

[pH]

I also thought that all of these could be paper transfers. However, this page: http://www.southern-locomotives.co.uk/80104/80104_BR_Service.html says that some Standard 4 tanks were stored at Old Oak, and this page: https://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2018/07/old-oak-common-1957-1964.html shows 80102/04/32 on shed at Old Oak on 7 October 1962.

 

80070/98/102/104/131/132 were part of a large batch of Standard Class 4 tanks at Tilbury made redundant by the LT&S electrification and transferred away from that shed in June and July1962. From the information on the BR Database site: http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=726401&type=S&page=alloc some of these went to Western Region sheds where they remained for a significant time. But batches went to Old Oak and Stratford, and only stayed at these sheds for short times before moving on to more permanent homes. I think they went to these two sheds only while it was decided where they could be most usefully employed. I would be quite surprised if they did any work while they were there but, like The Johnster, I'm prepared to be corrected by photographs. (I've done a quick search for any taken at Old Oak or Stratford in 1962, but haven't found any.)

[chrisf]

I left West London in July 1962 [aged 14] so would not have seen the Standard 4 tanks and had not been aware of their presence at Old Oak until now.  As others have said, I doubt that they did any useful work while they were there.

 

Chris

[pH]

I had a thought, and looked up my copy of the Ian Allan Locoshed Book for Autumn 1962. Allocations are as at July 28 1962 for the Eastern Region and as of July 14 for the Western.

 

80070/98/102/104/131/132 are shown with an allocation of 'WR'. I take that to mean they had already been transferred from Tilbury to the Western Region, but had not yet been allocated to a specific shed.

 

(There were also some of the ex-Tilbury engines shown as still allocated to Stratford on July 28.)

[The Stationmaster]

I certainly never saw any working in the area and I suspect, as others have said already, they were probably moved to Old Oak pending distribution to other sheds on the WR.  I definitely don't know of any Old Oak men talking of working on them at any time and I would have thought they would have been unlikely not to be mentioned.

[bike2steam]

Towards the end of summer 1962 the London end of the GE were in indecent haste to rid themselves of steam. Stratford proved it with it's solution to the 80103 problem. So yes, I agree with the 'paper transfer' idea ( as I can't remember seeing them at OOC), while the WR made it's mind up where to put the locos, in the end it was a good move - to the Cambrian, another problem they hived off to the LMR a few months later.

Edited June 15, 2019 by bike2steam

[Mallard60022]

Slightly OT but the Exeter District got some Teddy Bears in the early 60s and they proved very popular with many crews in the Cornwall and North Devon area. I saw a few at Central around 62/63 but I have not yet seen any pics of them at Seaton Junction except for a RCTS or SLS Special working around 1965. Personally I liked them as good looking Tank engines.

P 

[Tallpaul69]

Thanks everyone for your contributions!

 

I tend to go with the paper transfer idea, although I might stretch things a bit and use the standard 4 tank that I have as an alternative to one of my several 61xxs!

 

Best regards

Paul

 

[The Johnster]

They were handsome machines and quite stylish with those tumblehomed tanks.  Never heard of 'em being called Teddy Bears, which in my world applied to the D95xx hydraulics not introduced until 1965, which confused me a little in relation to Exeter! 

Edited June 15, 2019 by The Johnster

[Mallard60022]

14 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

They were handsome machines and quite stylish with those tumblehomed tanks.  Never heard of 'em being called Teddy Bears, which in my world applied to the D95xx hydraulics not introduced until 1965, which confused me a little in relation to Exeter! 

Teddy Bears they were at Exeter 72A. Big, powerful but cuddly I was told! Unsure how they worked the last one out!

Some dieseasel bods got confused and thought that the 95XX were the same thing, but I believe that came from them (the loco's.....maybe the disease bods as well) lurking in the Forest of Dean 

[Mallard60022]

6 hours ago, bike2steam said:

Towards the end of summer 1962 the London end of the GE were in indecent haste to rid themselves of steam. Stratford proved it with it's solution to the 80103 problem. So yes, I agree with the 'paper transfer' idea ( as I can't remember seeing them at OOC), while the WR made it's mind up where to put the locos, in the end it was a good move - to the Cambrian, another problem they hived off to the LMR a few months later.

What was "the 80103 problem" b2s?

P

[Pannier Tank]

46 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

What was "the 80103 problem" b2s?

 

The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_4_2-6-4T

 

No. 80103 was withdrawn in 1962 after being reported for rough riding. It was towed between two other locomotives to Stratford Works, where it was discovered that the mainframe was broken in half. Considered beyond economic repair, 80103 was withdrawn and scrapped. It was the first of the 'Standard' locomotives to be withdrawn, and the only one scrapped at Stratford.

[Mallard60022]

1 minute ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_4_2-6-4T

 

No. 80103 was withdrawn in 1962 after being reported for rough riding. It was towed between two other locomotives to Stratford Works, where it was discovered that the mainframe was broken in half. Considered beyond economic repair, 80103 was withdrawn and scrapped. It was the first of the 'Standard' locomotives to be withdrawn, and the only one scrapped at Stratford.

Ouch.

P

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Slightly OT but the Exeter District got some Teddy Bears in the early 60s and they proved very popular with many crews in the Cornwall and North Devon area. I saw a few at Central around 62/63 but I have not yet seen any pics of them at Seaton Junction except for a RCTS or SLS Special working around 1965. Personally I liked them as good looking Tank engines.

P 

Some worked between Exeter and Yeovil on the pick-up duties that had previously been the province of the Black Motors and, after they went, very occasionally (for a short while) the W class.

 

There was a down working referred to locally as the water train which often had an 80xxx on, it dropped off churns for boxes and crossings without a mains supply. This arrived at Axminster around six in the evening and shunted the yard before proceeding west. Other classes turned up on this duty from time to time and I particularly remember a rebuilt West Country that the driver considered himself fortunate to get in and out of the sidings without incident. There was an awful lot of flange squeal going on..... I think it was ether 34047 Callington. or 34048 Crediton.

 

The drivers were generally complimentary about the Standard tank's abilities and the (relative) comfort on offer, though I gathered there were a couple of rough ones that were less popular! Don't know if the train called in at Seaton Junction though.

 

John

 

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

They worked between Exeter and Yeovil on the pick-up duties that had previously been the province of the Black Motors and, after they went, very occasionally (for a short while) the W class.

 

There was a down working referred to locally as the water train which often had an 80xxx on, it dropped off churns for boxes and crossings without a mains supply. This arrived at Axminster around six in the evening and shunted the yard before proceeding west. Other classes turned up on this duty from time to time and I particularly remember a rebuilt West Country that the driver considered himself fortunate to get in and out of the sidings without incident. There was an awful lot of flange squeal going on..... I think it was ether 34047 Callington. or 34048 Crediton.

 

The drivers were generally complimentary about the Standard tank's abilities and the (relative) comfort on offer, though I gathered there were a couple of rough ones that were less popular! Don't know if the train called in at Seaton Junction though.

 

John

 

 

Thanks John. An excuse for a W at last then!!!!!

I'm not sure about SJ either and I've never read what you have just told me so thanks a bundle. Now I think of it I do have a couple of pics that were taken from a TBT cab at the Junction. One pic might well be of the 1965 special but I can't quite remember but I am sure one has a Hymek lurking and they were used on the milk occasionally. I shall have to go and have a poke about in my books.

SJ had a good water supply for the Station itself and the Dairy was fed from pumps and then a pipeline down from Honiton bank near the tunnel. In fact, on OS maps now they show 'pumps' or something similar sounding and I think that is to do with the springs that were always a problem up the bank top end but I may be wrong. There were (and may well have been since for all I know) quite a few occasions of landslip in that top cutting.

[The Johnster]

The story of the naming of the D95xx class may or may not be apocryphal, and goes that a foreman at Swindon Works, seeing the drawing of what he was to oversee the making of, commented that ‘well, we made the Great Bear, now they want us to make a bl**dy teddy bear’. 

 

I have to say that I don’t see anything especially cuddly about either loco, but a frontal view of a D95xx does suggest big sticky out ears, or it does if you accept the Micky Mouse argument for Ivatt/BR Standard 2MTs. 

[pH]

8 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

I saw a few at Central around 62/63 but I have not yet seen any pics of them at Seaton Junction except for a RCTS or SLS Special working around 1965.

 

I can't give you any evidence of one at Seaton Junction, but I can 'bracket' it - 80037 at Axminster on August 6 1963 and 80035 at Honiton on August 8 1963. I can't remember, and don't have notes of, what duties they were on.

 

8 hours ago, bike2steam said:

So yes, I agree with the 'paper transfer' idea ( as I can't remember seeing them at OOC), while the WR made it's mind up where to put the locos, in the end it was a good move - to the Cambrian, another problem they hived off to the LMR a few months later.

 

Some of the batch that went to Stratford eventually went further than the Cambrian. Via March and Ardsley, six of them ended up in Scotland. None of them lasted more than a few months there before being withdrawn.

[roythebus]

I asked this question of an old railway colleague Noel Hutchinson. He started at 83A in 1958, was train crew supervisor at Southall until it closed, and was latterly TCS at Waterloo in the mid 1980s. 

 

He remembers the 80000's at 83A but says they were more or less based at Acton. They were used on ECS to Paddington and OOC as well as cross- London freight to Chelsea and the suvvern, and WR freight work.  As they were based at Acton that's possibly why I didn't see any at OOC!

 

Here's Noel's reply to me:  I was there in 1958, those engines were used on empty coach working, OOC to Paddington and back, also local freight, Stewart's lane, Chelsea, Park Royal, mainly worked from Acton yard, hope that helps.

Edited June 15, 2019 by roythebus

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Thanks John. An excuse for a W at last then!!!!!

I'm not sure about SJ either and I've never read what you have just told me so thanks a bundle. Now I think of it I do have a couple of pics that were taken from a TBT cab at the Junction. One pic might well be of the 1965 special but I can't quite remember but I am sure one has a Hymek lurking and they were used on the milk occasionally. I shall have to go and have a poke about in my books.

SJ had a good water supply for the Station itself and the Dairy was fed from pumps and then a pipeline down from Honiton bank near the tunnel. In fact, on OS maps now they show 'pumps' or something similar sounding and I think that is to do with the springs that were always a problem up the bank top end but I may be wrong. There were (and may well have been since for all I know) quite a few occasions of landslip in that top cutting.

We're getting a long way off topic from the OP but a couple of points arising:

 

Hymeks were regular, if not the universal, traction on the SJ milk trains from September 1963, I think trial trips began a month or two earlier. 

 

The spring-water supply available to the Express Dairy was massive, I was told that something in the region of 300,000 gallons a day was possible, though that probably exceeded normal demand. The pipeline carried on serving a couple of farms and a few cottages long after the creamery closed - I granted line occupations from Honiton for disconnection/capping when the last went over to a mains supply - circa 2002 I think.

 

The landslips in the cutting at the London end of the tunnel were an occasional but potentially dangerous issue. In the worst incident I had anything to do with, a down ECS (Class 159 unit 159019) "surfed" on deep mud and came to rest with the front two cars off the road and all three just inside the tunnel. This happened around 0600 on 8th December 2000. The Eastleigh re-railing gang arrived around 1000 and we had the very mucky unit in the engineers' siding just as the late man arrived to relieve me.

 

John    

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[dibber25]

A couple of Standard 4MT tanks were broken up at Thorney Mill on the West Drayton-Staines West branch. Not sure where they came from. (CJL)

 

[bike2steam]

22 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

A couple of Standard 4MT tanks were broken up at Thorney Mill on the West Drayton-Staines West branch. Not sure where they came from. (CJL)

 

80031 & 80148.  And 3 ended their days at Cox and Danks at nearby Park Royal, barely a stones throw from OOC.

[pH]

8 hours ago, roythebus said:

I asked this question of an old railway colleague Noel Hutchinson. He started at 83A in 1958, was train crew supervisor at Southall until it closed, and was latterly TCS at Waterloo in the mid 1980s. 

 

He remembers the 80000's at 83A but says they were more or less based at Acton. They were used on ECS to Paddington and OOC as well as cross- London freight to Chelsea and the suvvern, and WR freight work.  As they were based at Acton that's possibly why I didn't see any at OOC!

 

Here's Noel's reply to me:  I was there in 1958, those engines were used on empty coach working, OOC to Paddington and back, also local freight, Stewart's lane, Chelsea, Park Royal, mainly worked from Acton yard, hope that helps.

 

That does surprise me. 

 

A couple of points, and I'm not trying to be awkward or clever, I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. You say "He remembers the 80000's at 83A" - I presume you mean 81A (Old Oak Common). Also, you write that he says " I (i.e. Noel) was there in 1958". The original post referred to Summer 1962 - was he still there in 1962? 

 

The real surprise is that Noel says Standard 4 tanks were used on ECS into and out of Paddington. I did wonder if, when talking about cross-London freights to and from south of the river, he was remembering Southern Region engines being used. The Southern Region had some of these engines shedded at Stewarts Lane, Bricklayers Arms, Feltham and Nine Elms at various times. But even if they were used on transfer freights to the WR, I don't think they would have been borrowed for ECS to and from Paddington.

 

What we need are pictures!