Imaginary Locomotives

[The Johnster]

Ireland? That had me scurrying to Wikipedia - without enlightenment - as I thought they were unique to Britain. Anyway I learnt that not just the NYC but also the Pennsylvania RR used "track pans". 

 

Ireland's railways were controlled by British interests until independence in 1922, and for longer in Ulster.  The general design philosophy and methods of working were to all intents and purposes identical, as were rules and regulations and the influence of the RCH.

[The Johnster]

Since the LMS apparently carried out design studies and at least, provisional design work on 4-6-4 and 4-8-4 designs, it might be instructive to know what tenders were envisaged for those designs?

 

Whatever they were, the Stanier pacifics were close to the limit of what could reasonably expected of manual firing, and had coal pushers, so one might expect coal pushers, mechanical stokers, or oil firing.  I would envisage a 4 wheel version of the Duchess tender, but of course this is pure guesswork.  It would not be for another couple of decades that bi-direcional running at speed might be required, which might feasibly require bogie tenders and attention to drivers' view of the track ahead of a loco running tender first at high speed.

[The Johnster]

Surely that's not unique to a tender full of coal or water? E.g. a parcels train that drops off at intermediate stops?

 

On the other hand, I think the changing load in a tender is why having motorised tenders isn't so useful, as the tractive effort diminishes as the water and coal is used up.

 

 

Passenger rated coaching stock is given a nominal weight which includes passengers, parcels, or mail, and the 'load 2 tons equally distributed' branding on BGs does not affect this.  This is not to deny that the difference might be felt on the footplate and reflected in the loco's performance, particularly with long trains where the overall change to the load might amount to the better part of 30 tons, almost the weight of a coach, over a long journey!

 

On a train of passenger rated stock, the guard's signed load slip given to the driver does not include the locomotive or a tender if that is part of the locomotive's all up working weight; the driver is expected to allow for this.

Edited January 22, 2018 by The Johnster

[DavidB-AU]

Separate water tanks are/were fairly common around the world.

 

The Victorian Railways has 4 wheel water tanks usually used only on good trains on branch lines although most tenders had the hose fitting to connect to a tank. In preservation, it is more common to use a converted bogie oil tank. Also in preservation, the fittings on the tanks and tender have been changed to the same type used by the fire services so it is possible to fill from a fire hydrant or in remote locations from a fire tanker.

 

In New South Wales, where a "branch line" could be 50 miles long, there was a fleet of 4 wheel and bogie travelling water tanks. Most were goods rated but some had passenger bogies. Originally they were simply piped to the loco with a one way valve but later ones had small gas-powered pumps in an enclosure on the end of the wagon. Most locos were through water piped so one or more tanks could supply two or more locos. Even some tank engines were piped.

 

Queensland Railways had unusually shaped water tanks of not very high capacity. QR Heritage now has a repurposed bogie oil tank.

 

Extra water tanks were common in South Africa.

 

Union Pacific converted some of the gas turbine fuel tenders into water tanks, originally for MOW purposes but a couple are now used as water tenders for its steam fleet.

 

Cheers

David

Edited January 22, 2018 by DavidB-AU

[DCB]

So.... 'Conqueror' now pictured with roller bearings, smoke deflectors and different rear bogie. Stanier and Ivatt versions pictured above.

The rearmost bogie wheel now sits roughly where the rear wheel on the 4-6-2 is. The firebox is stretched but same depth. 

I like the proportions more now.

stanier-4-8-4-6.jpg

I reckon the back end is pretty much spot on now, just musing about that rear end with the Duchess front end as a 4-6-4 as I reckon the 4-6-4 would have needed a 60 sq ft firebox and mechanical stoker to have competed with the late 1940s diesels, not to mention a 15 ton capacity bogie tender.  I am wondering what services the 4-8-4 would have operated. The Pacifics were stretched on the overnight sleeper trains from Perth to Crewe if not Crewe to Euston, Maybe they could have run right through?

In fact Inverness has a Triangle/ wye and there are some handy triangular junctions Willesden way so why not roster them all the way on the Inverness to Euston sleeper?  Could have replaced 2 black 5s and two Pacifics on that run, now that starts to make economic sense.

[rockershovel]

I reckon the back end is pretty much spot on now, just musing about that rear end with the Duchess front end as a 4-6-4 as I reckon the 4-6-4 would have needed a 60 sq ft firebox and mechanical stoker to have competed with the late 1940s diesels, not to mention a 15 ton capacity bogie tender.  I am wondering what services the 4-8-4 would have operated. The Pacifics were stretched on the overnight sleeper trains from Perth to Crewe if not Crewe to Euston, Maybe they could have run right through?

In fact Inverness has a Triangle/ wye and there are some handy triangular junctions Willesden way so why not roster them all the way on the Inverness to Euston sleeper?  Could have replaced 2 black 5s and two Pacifics on that run, now that starts to make economic sense.

.. which also makes sense in that London-Inverness by way of Shap, with a sleeper train, must be the most challenging passenger turn anywhere on British metals?

[rockershovel]

Or taken to the extremes, a triplex:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplex_(locomotive)

28884.jpg

Indeed. A locomotive so overburdened by its own weight, consuming so much steam that it can only manage short periods at 3-5mph would fit the term... the thing I find amazing about the 2-8-8-8-4 is that it was ever built at all. Edited January 22, 2018 by rockershovel

[Zomboid]

.. which also makes sense in that London-Inverness by way of Shap, with a sleeper train, must be the most challenging passenger turn anywhere on British metals?

So we've justified a fleet of about 3, then?

I don't know if it's factual, but I want to say that Holyhead could have had some big boat trains as well, which might make use of something big. Hope it'll get over those tubular bridges...

They'd probably have done some good work on London - Glasgow intermodals, too. If such a thing had existed in the steam era.

[rockershovel]

So we've justified a fleet of about 3, then?

I don't know if it's factual, but I want to say that Holyhead could have had some big boat trains as well, which might make use of something big. Hope it'll get over those tubular bridges...

They'd probably have done some good work on London - Glasgow intermodals, too. If such a thing had existed in the steam era.

Given that the London-Glasgow service would include Shap, and the Holyhead services, North Wales; and that part of the problem with the Greeley 2-8-2s was that coal traffic was required to give precedence to fast passenger traffic, so that passing loops became an issue, I could easily envisage a fleet of such locomotives working turns like that

 

I don’t see an issue with the bridges, given a low enough axle loading. The long bogie tenders would distribute the weight, and speeds would be low.

Edited January 22, 2018 by rockershovel

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Some minor tweaks to Conqueror.  Ivatt version with triple Lempor exhaust, all weather cab and 12 wheel water cart tender.

 

[Budgie]

Some minor tweaks to Conqueror.  Ivatt version with triple Lempor exhaust, all weather cab and 12 wheel water cart tender.

 

conquerer2.jpg

How about putting roller bearings on the coupling and connecting rods? Somewhat akin to the N&W's J class.

[Corbs]

A few more variations on the theme.

 

A 4-6-4, basically a Duchess with a larger firebox, in BR express passenger blue. Any ideas for names?

 

A 2-8-2, Top half is all the same as a Duchess but with a 2 cylinder layout, slightly shorter than the pacific.

 

A 2-10-4. Not sure why, fast ultra heavy goods maybe. Uses the same boiler as the 4-8-4 but 2 cylinder front end.

 

(also updated with the Berkshire thanks to the good Doctor)

 

Pictured with the others. The goods locos in black.

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Corbs

[scots region]

A few more variations on the theme.

 

A 4-6-4, basically a Duchess with a larger firebox, in BR express passenger blue. Any ideas for names?

 

A 2-8-2, Top half is all the same as a Duchess but with a 2 cylinder layout, slightly shorter than the pacific.

 

A 2-10-4. Not sure why, fast ultra heavy goods maybe. Uses the same boiler as the 4-8-4 but 2 cylinder front end.

 

Pictured with the others. The goods locos in black.

 

stanier-misc-2b.jpg

 

Where might I pre-order? 

[Corbs]

It did occur to me that crew fatigue is a factor if we are going from Inverness to Euston non-stop. Perhaps the bogie tender should be redesigned with a corridor connection, and the old ones cascaded to the goods locos or the Baltics.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I love the 2-8-2 and the 2-10-4!  

[rockershovel]

It did occur to me that crew fatigue is a factor if we are going from Inverness to Euston non-stop. Perhaps the bogie tender should be redesigned with a corridor connection, and the old ones cascaded to the goods locos or the Baltics.

Sleepers don’t travel non-stop; indeed, they might be fast when moving, but make numerous stops. The “Royal Scot” used to change crews at Carlisle, despite LNER setting the precedent of corridor tenders. The GWR didn’t make a feature of long-distance non-stop services, and the SR operated over such a short range that this wasn’t something they concerned themselves with. So apart from the publicity value, there seems to have been little real value in the practice.

 

It’s also instructive, considering the discussion of water-cart tenders, to learn that the LNER Pacific types were constrained not by water consumption, but by their range on a single tender of coal.

[Zomboid]

It’s also instructive, considering the discussion of water-cart tenders, to learn that the LNER Pacific types were constrained not by water consumption, but by their range on a single tender of coal.

Probably a function of having troughs, and of course water is easy to replenish at station stops by comparison with coal. One of the benefits of the enormo-tender would be increased coal capacity as well as water. I would guess that a 6 axle tender could be designed to carry around double what a normal sized one would.

[Coryton]

Ireland's railways were controlled by British interests until independence in 1922, and for longer in Ulster.  The general design philosophy and methods of working were to all intents and purposes identical, as were rules and regulations and the influence of the RCH.

 

Yes, but....I wouldn't have thought that meant that they had everything that was used in Britain.

 

So far as I know the Southern Railway didn't use water troughs, but couldn't you make the same argument to say they did?

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I added one more to your Standards - a 2-8-4 Berkshire, for fast freight service.

 

[Corbs]

To be honest I prefer that to the 2-10-4. Hope you don't mind me pinching the concept! I stuck the Ivatt front on but with inside frames and changed the number.

 

We have 3 phases here now. Using the Duchess boiler for a goods loco, then enlarging the firebox in phase 2, and finally pairing the larger firebox with a huge boiler.

 

(I updated the pic on the previous post to include the Berkshire)

Edited January 22, 2018 by Corbs

[scots region]

What could be used to make the bogie trucks? The wheels do seem close together to me, plus I can't help but wonder if a pair of four wheel bogies would be used rather than two of six.

[Corbs]

I used some Stanier coach bogies to make them. Likewise the BR Standard bogie tenders a few pages ago use Mk.1 bogies as a basis.

[scots region]

I used some Stanier coach bogies to make them. Likewise the BR Standard bogie tenders a few pages ago use Mk.1 bogies as a basis.

 

Oh, very good.

[60021 Pen-y-Ghent]

Makes you wonder why they didn't just convert the troughs to enable diesel to be picked up on the move...

Class 40s were fitted with water scoops so they could replenish steam heating boilers on the move.

 

Well I must confess to reading the original as troughs with diesel fuel to be picked up not pickup enabled diesels! I had visions of some rather oily looking trackside workers and equipment and a whole new meaning to trackside fires.

[Regularity]

The standard mikado was sublime, but this...

I added one more to your Standards - a 2-8-4 Berkshire, for fast freight service.

 

284.jpg

Has very obvious links to the Princess Coronation class, particularly the cab.

That’s not necessarily a criticism.

 

Please excuse me for a few minutes: I need to go somewhere private with a box of tissues.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Regularity