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halsey

Revising an old layout - track plan done DCC wiring next

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Hi,

I want to modify/simplify the layout below which is now dismantled due to a house move...……………….. this was created for me by a collective of members on here and was almost right first time I just want to remove and add factors which I would have done first time if I had known more …..the house move has helped me get to that point 

 

Main issues with which I would really love and appreciate some help please - the space available is pretty much the same as before app 9ft X 7ft 

 

I still want to retain DC so zones and isolation would be good to know (again)

Remove the upper BLT completely

I do want to create a 2 track "roundy-roundy" capability

Retain the dedicated connection between goods and fiddle on the left hand side of the plan as shown below

I will want the simplest area of track to encompass an easy lift out section  - probably as you look at the plan below on the right hand side where the shaded area is marked

 

A last thought (for now ) I may need/choose to have the two main modelled areas set out "together" across a corner rather than opposite each other as they are below in simple terms that would involve the fiddle having to move to the left hand side as below - I don't want to do this but it needs more thought as to the physical needs of my space which is not a dedicated 9*7 shed as last time but part of a much bigger 5m*3m building used for other things.

 

To me this is a daunting task to those experts of you out there I suspect not so much...………..

 

Please remember I'm starting from scratch.

 

Thanks

 

 

Shed Goods Layout v3.jpg

Edited by halsey

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Hi,

 

In the other thread you said that the new shed was 5m * 3m but that you would reserve some room for your work area.

 

Could you move the work area inside the operating well of the railway? Then the railway could run around the outside of the entire space. It wouldn't have to be all scenic but it would allow a good long run along one side for a scenic station with larger radius curves at the ends.

 

Was reaching across the baseboards ever a problem with the old layout? What would you consider the maximum baseboard width, bearing in mind the need to reach the back corner?

 

Finally, I'm just going to put the cat among the pigeons! :wink_mini: Since you are proposing to change era and replace a lot of your stock, have you thought about changing scale at the same time? How about O gauge in your 5m * 3m space??? :smile_mini2:

 

Edited by Harlequin
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How about N Gauge to rival Pendon?  Seriously - I have seen layouts which run the non-scenic bit across the back of the workbench - for example, others that have put the whole lot on top of second hand/old kitchen cabinets.  Like all these things its what you want or have available.  Obviously if you have a pillar drill on your workbench that idea might not work!

 

I think most of us would kill for 16' by 10' or so - it's garage size.  The PROBLEM with that is over complication which results in taking too long to get anything running and hence losing interest.  I had a friend like that.  What we did was rework his design so he could build a station and fiddle yard with a circular track for some fun, and move on to fill in an extra station and so on in time.  Even then it never got "finished" and I had the sad job of scrapping it when he passed to the great layout in the sky.

 

MOST big layouts I know of are either created and run by clubs or by groups of friends - amny hands etc..  If you do have the time and resources to "go big" then think modular, "how can I incrementally build this" so you can maintain enthusiasm and get some FUN out of it. No fun = give up.

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19 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Hi,

 

In the other thread you said that the new shed was 5m * 3m but that you would reserve some room for your work area.

 

Could you move the work area inside the operating well of the railway? Then the railway could run around the outside of the entire space. It wouldn't have to be all scenic but it would allow a good long run along one side for a scenic station with larger radius curves at the ends.

 

Was reaching across the baseboards ever a problem with the old layout? What would you consider the maximum baseboard width, bearing in mind the need to reach the back corner?

 

Finally, I'm just going to put the cat among the pigeons! https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_wink_mini.gif Since you are proposing to change era and replace a lot of your stock, have you thought about changing scale at the same time? How about O gauge in your 5m * 3m space??? https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_smile_mini2.gif

 

The shed is 5m*3m BUT I want to keep the two areas separate - definitely OO app 9*7 space - max baseboard width/depth 32" and I'm building it on kitchen base units so 36" high 

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13 minutes ago, imt said:

How about N Gauge to rival Pendon?  Seriously - I have seen layouts which run the non-scenic bit across the back of the workbench - for example, others that have put the whole lot on top of second hand/old kitchen cabinets.  Like all these things its what you want or have available.  Obviously if you have a pillar drill on your workbench that idea might not work!

 

I think most of us would kill for 16' by 10' or so - it's garage size.  The PROBLEM with that is over complication which results in taking too long to get anything running and hence losing interest.  I had a friend like that.  What we did was rework his design so he could build a station and fiddle yard with a circular track for some fun, and move on to fill in an extra station and so on in time.  Even then it never got "finished" and I had the sad job of scrapping it when he passed to the great layout in the sky.

 

MOST big layouts I know of are either created and run by clubs or by groups of friends - amny hands etc..  If you do have the time and resources to "go big" then think modular, "how can I incrementally build this" so you can maintain enthusiasm and get some FUN out of it. No fun = give up.

Hi,

Long time no "speak"

Definitely not "N" as my eyes and big hands preclude

Very happy with the scale and potential of the layout you had a hand in last time - just want to tweak its failings

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2 hours ago, halsey said:

just want to tweak its failings

 

Ah! But what were they?  I wouldn't have built what you built - but Rule 1 applies - it's yours do it your way.

 

So if you want a critique, you need to tell us what you think you got wrong.  Was it the design, the emphasis on goods over passenger, too much rail/not enough.  Or was it I wouldn't have used those points, the buildings could have been better (not in my opinion but it may be yours, say).

 

We need to know to help ........

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Would it not be better to try and get 2 continuous runs on the lower level. At the moment you have 1 and it means running thought a set of facing points?

 

Also a headshunt for the goods yard so you can run trains and still shunt the yard?

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3 hours ago, imt said:

 

Ah! But what were they?  I wouldn't have built what you built - but Rule 1 applies - it's yours do it your way.

 

So if you want a critique, you need to tell us what you think you got wrong.  Was it the design, the emphasis on goods over passenger, too much rail/not enough.  Or was it I wouldn't have used those points, the buildings could have been better (not in my opinion but it may be yours, say).

 

We need to know to help ........

As per the first post on this thread above ...…………………………...

 

The main issues with which I would really love and appreciate some help please - the space available is pretty much the same as before app 9ft X 7ft 

 

I still want to retain DC so zones and isolation would be good to know (again)

Remove the upper BLT completely

I do want to create a 2 track "roundy-roundy" capability

Retain the dedicated connection between goods and fiddle on the left hand side of the plan as shown below

I will want the simplest area of track to encompass an easy lift out section  - probably as you look at the plan below on the right hand side where the shaded area is marked

 

A last thought (for now ) I may need/choose to have the two main modelled areas set out "together" across a corner rather than opposite each other as they are below in simple terms that would involve the fiddle having to move to the left hand side as below - I don't want to do this but it needs more thought as to the physical needs of my space which is not a dedicated 9*7 shed as last time but part of a much bigger 5m*3m building used for other things.

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2 hours ago, Aire Head said:

Would it not be better to try and get 2 continuous runs on the lower level. At the moment you have 1 and it means running thought a set of facing points?

 

Also a headshunt for the goods yard so you can run trains and still shunt the yard?

 

If you refer to the first post the higher level is to be completely removed as per my wish list.

 

Headshunt is a good idea but the dedicated (goods/fiddle) link is intended to serve as both.

 

Thanks 

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1 hour ago, halsey said:

As per the first post on this thread above ...…………………………...

 

The main issues with which I would really love and appreciate some help please - the space available is pretty much the same as before app 9ft X 7ft 

 

I still want to retain DC so zones and isolation would be good to know (again)

Remove the upper BLT completely

I do want to create a 2 track "roundy-roundy" capability

Retain the dedicated connection between goods and fiddle on the left hand side of the plan as shown below

I will want the simplest area of track to encompass an easy lift out section  - probably as you look at the plan below on the right hand side where the shaded area is marked

 

A last thought (for now ) I may need/choose to have the two main modelled areas set out "together" across a corner rather than opposite each other as they are below in simple terms that would involve the fiddle having to move to the left hand side as below - I don't want to do this but it needs more thought as to the physical needs of my space which is not a dedicated 9*7 shed as last time but part of a much bigger 5m*3m building used for other things.

 

That all makes sense, and I guess we can all see roughly how the new layout might be arranged, but with respect it doesn't tell us what the problems were. It tells us about the solutions that you've already decided on...

 

If you tell us the problems you encountered we might have different solutions to suggest - things that you might not have thought of.

 

:smile_mini2:

Edited by Harlequin
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1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

 

That all makes sense, and I guess we can all see roughly how the new layout might be arranged, but with respect it doesn't tell us what the problems were. It tells us about the solutions that you've already decided on...

 

If you tell us the problems you encountered we might have different solutions to suggest - things that you might not have thought of.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_smile_mini2.gif

OK fair comment

Too complicated to model 

Higher level didn't work for reach and access AND MADE LIFT OUT SECTION WAY TOO CUMBERSOME

Wanted roundy roundy

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So you want a 2 track roundy which is freight biased with lots of shunting possibilities?

Any passenger facilities needed? (You don't have to have a station to run passenger trains, of course - I wouldn't bother personally if I were building a freight focussed layout).

 

Your last one was in the Freezer kind of mould, with lots of track and a slightly Trainset vibe, is that still what you'd like to go for? (I liked it for that reason) 

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Here's your old layout scaled to 9ft wide and dropped into your new 5 * 3m wide space:

Halsey1.png.4534b4ca756c2a5d5970a81ea9914040.png

 

it looks like you've got more than 9ft to play with and if I've guessed the orientation correctly the lifiting section would have to be a in different place than the old layout.

 

We need more info, please. It would help us if you could measure up and tell us the internal dimensions of your new space, including where the entrance is and where the layout would sit in the space.

 

Accuracy matters because a few centimetres might make the difference between being able to fit in a set of points that make the layout work or not and having to do something very different, possibly not as good.

 

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On 25/10/2019 at 18:28, Zomboid said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Here's your old layout scaled to 9ft wide and dropped into your new 5 * 3m wide space:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/Halsey1.png.4534b4ca756c2a5d5970a81ea9914040.png

 

it looks like you've got more than 9ft to play with and if I've guessed the orientation correctly the lifiting section would have to be a in different place than the old layout.

 

We need more info, please. It would help us if you could measure up and tell us the internal dimensions of your new space, including where the entrance is and where the layout would sit in the space.

 

Accuracy matters because a few centimetres might make the difference between being able to fit in a set of points that make the layout work or not and having to do something very different, possibly not as good.

 

You are right in your general interpretation and I apologise - I do need to provide more info - the "space" is a log cabin with double doors and windows centrally located  (at the bottom of the plan above) I am prepared to forego opening the LH window and the double doors open outwards one of which can be obstructed and could provide a general area for the "lift out"  - the external dimensions of the cabin are 2.8*4.8 - and my internal space is 9ft *7ft6".

I hope that helps

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On 25/10/2019 at 18:28, Zomboid said:

So you want a 2 track roundy which is freight biased with lots of shunting possibilities?

Any passenger facilities needed? (You don't have to have a station to run passenger trains, of course - I wouldn't bother personally if I were building a freight focussed layout).

 

Your last one was in the Freezer kind of mould, with lots of track and a slightly Trainset vibe, is that still what you'd like to go for? (I liked it for that reason) 

Not entirely goods some passenger - if you would like to review the photos on my first main thread of the layout just before I broke it up it shows how the fiddle yard actually developed into a goods shed and a station which again worked well 

I didn't retain any photos so the old thread is the only reference point for a layout that was sooo close (sorry) 

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On 26/10/2019 at 21:02, halsey said:

 

You are right in your general interpretation and I apologise - I do need to provide more info - the "space" is a log cabin with double doors and windows centrally located  (at the bottom of the plan above) I am prepared to forego opening the LH window and the double doors open outwards one of which can be obstructed and could provide a general area for the "lift out"  - the external dimensions of the cabin are 2.8*4.8 - and my internal space is 9ft *7ft6".

I hope that helps

Yes, thanks.

 

I think the space is something like this then: (I have rotated by 90 degrees again so we are just looking at the left hand side of the cabin.)

Halsey2.png.3d82bd00778c286417fd3960fac742c2.png

 

The grid squares are 1ft*1ft (305*305mm). I've plonked on some baseboards just to get an idea. The top and right baseboards are 32in deep as per your maximum. That means that the reach into the top right corner is 45 inches! Too far?

I imagine that the lifting section would be in the bottom board somewhere.

 

This is just to get a feel for the space, it can all be sliced and diced in different ways and ultimately the baseboards should fit the railway, not the other way round! How do you feel about the boards obstructing one of the double doors like that?

 

Is the cabin insulated enough for use in winter? If not, you might need to allow some depth inside the wals for insulation and that would affect the railway size, of course.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Yes, thanks.

 

I think the space is something like this then: (I have rotated by 90 degrees again so we are just looking at the left hand side of the cabin.)

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/Halsey2.png.3d82bd00778c286417fd3960fac742c2.png

 

The grid squares are 1ft*1ft (305*305mm). I've plonked on some baseboards just to get an idea. The top and right baseboards are 32in deep as per your maximum. That means that the reach into the top right corner is 45 inches! Too far?

I imagine that the lifting section would be in the bottom board somewhere.

 

This is just to get a feel for the space, it can all be sliced and diced in different ways and ultimately the baseboards should fit the railway, not the other way round! How do you feel about the boards obstructing one of the double doors like that?

 

Is the cabin insulated enough for use in winter? If not, you might need to allow some depth inside the wals for insulation and that would affect the railway size, of course.

 

Pretty much on the button - I don't mind blocking one door - the solid walls are 44mm thick and triple T&G jointed and the roof is very well insulated externally - it is double glazed and will be background heated 24/7 by 6x120w greenhouse tubular heaters with whatever is needed to increase temp when in use.

I was possibly thinking the LH board would be narrower but it actually doesn't matter - 45 inches is OK if really beneficial but less would be better but it could just be landscaping to enable better/kinder curves 

Thanks

AS you are watching my other thread(s) it will definitely be Leominster or this :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, halsey said:

Pretty much on the button - I don't mind blocking one door - the solid walls are 44mm thick and triple T&G jointed and the roof is very well insulated externally - it is double glazed and will be background heated 24/7 by 6x120w greenhouse tubular heaters with whatever is needed to increase temp when in use.

I was possibly thinking the LH board would be narrower but it actually doesn't matter - 45 inches is OK if really beneficial but less would be better but it could just be landscaping to enable better/kinder curves 

Thanks

AS you are watching my other thread(s) it will definitely be Leominster or this https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gif

 

 

I suggested putting the lifting flap in the room rather than near the door so that you can move in and out of the operating well without having to open the external door.

 

Thinking about making the best use of the space and how to fit a representation of Leominster into it(!), how would you feel about something like this:

Halsey3.png.b47c8c5622a597d31f3b26cbdddbb2db.png

 

It's 9 by 9 overall , so I've borrowed 1ft 6in from your workshop area on the right but in compensation I've given back space near the doors.

I imagine your station and its goods yard would fill the two big boards with the goods yard doubling as a scenic fiddle yard.

 

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2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

 

I suggested putting the lifting flap in the room rather than near the door so that you can move in and out of the operating well without having to open the external door.

 

Thinking about making the best use of the space and how to fit a representation of Leominster into it(!), how would you feel about something like this:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/Halsey3.png.b47c8c5622a597d31f3b26cbdddbb2db.png

 

It's 9 by 9 overall , so I've borrowed 1ft 6in from your workshop area on the right but in compensation I've given back space near the doors.

I imagine your station and its goods yard would fill the two big boards with the goods yard doubling as a scenic fiddle yard.

 

OK - hmmmmmmmmmmm - do-able I think i'll have a look for real in the morning:rolleyes:

Thanks

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14 hours ago, halsey said:

OK - hmmmmmmmmmmm - do-able I think i'll have a look for real in the morninghttps://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gif

Thanks

 

Looks very do-able keep it up...………………...

I like the idea of the "bridge" being angled and accessible from the inside without opening the door very practical thinking...……….

Thanks

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Could you go further along the back wall?

 

I don't want to push you to make something bigger than you can cope with or adversely affect your workshop, just exploring to find the best compromise to make the railway as good as it can be for you.

 

The thing that worries me most about the 9 by 9 baseboard above is the lack of an off-scene fiddle yard, meaning that there's nowhere for trains to go to or come from... The back of the layout would basically just be double-track running lines - not doing anything very useful other than allowing trains to circulate. How do you feel about that?

 

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32 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Could you go further along the back wall?

 

I don't want to push you to make something bigger than you can cope with or adversely affect your workshop, just exploring to find the best compromise to make the railway as good as it can be for you.

 

The thing that worries me most about the 9 by 9 baseboard above is the lack of an off-scene fiddle yard, meaning that there's nowhere for trains to go to or come from... The back of the layout would basically just be double-track running lines - not doing anything very useful other than allowing trains to circulate. How do you feel about that?

 

Hi All,

Been following this thread with interest, and thought now might be a good time to throw in my thoughts!

 

1) While I agree with Phil that he and I would want a fairly extensive fiddle yard, others who are less inclined to try to operate to a particular timetable may not see the need for it.

2) Following on from this, Leominster (to me!) cries out for timetable operation. Something much less based on a real location less so, and if operation is not your aim then perhaps you need less of a fiddle yard but I would suggest a loop each way off the main lines to allow trains to be alternated is the very minimum. 

Without this every train has to start and terminate in your station or goods yard, or appear twice in them in quick succession, or stop in the mainline somewhere which then blocks the line!

 

3) another factor is train length:- with short trains, the loops I mentioned above might hold two trains each. even with longer trains one can play crafty and have two trains in each loop, but one is a light engine, or a engine + brake van, or an auto train?

 

Hope the above helps?

 

Happy modelling (or model planning!)

Paul

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2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Could you go further along the back wall?

 

I don't want to push you to make something bigger than you can cope with or adversely affect your workshop, just exploring to find the best compromise to make the railway as good as it can be for you.

 

The thing that worries me most about the 9 by 9 baseboard above is the lack of an off-scene fiddle yard, meaning that there's nowhere for trains to go to or come from... The back of the layout would basically just be double-track running lines - not doing anything very useful other than allowing trains to circulate. How do you feel about that?

 

 

Hi,

Fiddle yards don't appeal

You could have another foot (width) at most but that's it

Circulating trains against a simple backscene is OK with me 

There was quite a lot of goods movement on my last layout - not that I played trains a lot as it was so new...…..

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sorry that was a bit rushed I am dealing with a very poorly dog at present...……...

The goods movement potential of the last layout was never fully explored but felt good esp (if you refer to photos) with the added engine sheds and turntable, not on any of the plans but a later development photographed on one of the two threads on the links see below

BFN

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42 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

Hi,

Fiddle yards don't appeal

You could have another foot (width) at most but that's it

Circulating trains against a simple backscene is OK with me 

There was quite a lot of goods movement on my last layout - not that I played trains a lot as it was so new...…..

 

30 minutes ago, halsey said:

sorry that was a bit rushed I am dealing with a very poorly dog at present...……...

The goods movement potential of the last layout was never fully explored but felt good esp (if you refer to photos) with the added engine sheds and turntable, not on any of the plans but a later development photographed on one of the two threads on the links see below

BFN

 

No problem (I hope your dog is OK!)

 

This is a useful post to visualise the old layout: 

 

 

Your answer about fiddle yards is very useful, thanks. So, the kind of thing I showed above, all scenic with a skinny bridge connecting the ends to make a circuit should fit the bill.

 

The scenic area should have quite dense trackwork, in the Freezer style of the old layout, as @Zomboid pointed out. So maybe we could have two opposing goods yards at either end, an Up yard and a Down yard, with a passenger section in the middle and a turntable and engine shed somewhere. To operate the goods you'd make up a train in one yard and send it out to run on the doube-track circuit for a while before it enters the other yard where you shunt it to break it down again. And while one goods train is running, maybe with a passenger going the other way round at the same time, you'd be shunting the other yard (headshunts allowing). Sounds like fun to me! What do you think?

 

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