When did Brake Vans stop being used on fitted goods trains?

[paulbb]

Noticed in one of the mags Steam World possibly, a USA tank at Eastleigh taken in 1967, towing a rake of (old style) containers, with no apparent guards brake at the rear. Seem to recall also seeing WR fitted freights in Devon around 1966 with no brake vans either. Is my memory playing tricks on me?

[Aire Head]

I've always read that it was very early 1970s.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Requirement for brake vans on Class 3,4,5 and 6 trains ceased on 5th May 1969. A van was still needed if the loco was single cab such as a Class 20, as the Guard couldn't ride with the driver except as required under certain conditions laid down in the Rule Book. 

Modifications to Class 20s (some to do with fire alarms IIRC) allowed them to be used in multiple with the Guard travelling in the rear loco.

 

Some discussions in this thread 

 

 

Regarding the Eastleigh picture, there were certain places where wagons or empty passenger vehicles could be moved, usually between two signal boxes in a station area, without the use of a brake van. These were specified in the Sectional Appendix

[micknich2003]

Agreement with the unions was reached c1966, the guard then traveled in the back cab of the train engine, and this obviously could only be done with diesel traction.

 

 At many locations, trains could be worked between specific points without a brakevan, such workings would be specified in the Sectional Appendix.

[Caledonian]

21 minutes ago, micknich2003 said:

At many locations, trains could be worked between specific points without a brakevan, such workings would be specified in the Sectional Appendix.

 

It may have been a long-established arrangement. David L. Smith has a story in his Legends of the Glasgow & South Western Railway in LMS Days of a breakaway one night in Ayr Station in 1944:

 

"Presently a down goods came through with No.574 and three goods vehicles. I was slowly pondering whether Ayr had been added to the list of places where short goods trains can be run without a brake van when..."

[russ p]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Requirement for brake vans on Class 3,4,5 and 6 trains ceased on 5th May 1969. A van was still needed if the loco was single cab such as a Class 20, as the Guard couldn't ride with the driver except as required under certain conditions laid down in the Rule Book. 

Modifications to Class 20s (some to do with fire alarms IIRC) allowed them to be used in multiple with the Guard travelling in the rear loco.

 

Some discussions in this thread 

 

 

Regarding the Eastleigh picture, there were certain places where wagons or empty passenger vehicles could be moved, usually between two signal boxes in a station area, without the use of a brake van. These were specified in the Sectional Appendix

 

 

It was a strange thing with 20s they had to be fitted with an emergency brake valve for the guards to be able to ride on them . Supposedly  if it were a twin cab locomotive the guards must have gone through the engine room to tell the driver to stop rather than use the drivers brake valve to dump the brake. 

An odd situation as the guard may not necessarily know the route through the engine room and if the loco was flat out would he want to go in there?

[The Johnster]

The story is a little complex but I’ll do me best...

 

The introduction of freightliner trains in 1966 was originally intended by BR to have guards riding aboard the locomotive in the front cab in the secondman’s seat, the loco being ‘single manned’ by the driver in terms of the footplate grades.  ASLEF, the locomen’s trade union, with the interests of preserving secondmens’ positions (this was after all their job), objected to guard’s riding on locos anywhere and a dispute ensued.  

 

ALSEF initially got their way, the secondmen stayed, and some passenger brake 3rds were fitted with air brakes and bottled gas heating, and painted in grey Freightliner livery for Freightliner guards to ride in; there were also some odd little gas heated fibreglass containers with goldfish bowl side lookouts that could be attached to the container wagons.  The NRM has one of these. 

 

The NUR on behalf of the guards now entered the fray, objecting to the fibreglass boxes which suffered from draughts, condensation from the gas heating, and which had a reputation for poor riding, as a result of which they were withdrawn, unlamented by anyone.  A new agreement with both unions allowed ‘single manning’ on Freightliner and (IIRC) Cartic trains, but the guards were to ride in the rear cab, communicating with the driver by means of hand signals; I believe this was in 1968. The Freightliner ex-passenger brake vans were withdrawn, some having further lives as departmental stock. 

 

BR were unhappy with this situation, and in 1969 implemented a new and much more comprehensive single manning agreement which provoked further industrial action from ASLEF.  This introduced single manning on all classes of train except light engines (which I’ll come back to shortly), specials or out of course workings, royal trains, breakdown or departmental working, out of gauge loads, and any train requiring steam heating, which was operated by the secondman. 

 

There were restrictions that demanded the presence of a secondman on the loco, such as any duty that involved the driver being on duty for more than 8 hours booked, or where he could not be given a 20 minute ‘physical needs’ break off the loco between the 5th and 7th hour of his duty.  But on the single manned duties, guards were expected to be ‘acting secondmen’ under the driver’s supervision for a distance of up to 15 miles from the home depot on a loco proceeding to pick up it’s train, or any distance returning to the home depot. 

 

Note that this applied to all classes of train.  The use of brake vans on fully fitted trains was discontinued at this time, and guards were henceforward ‘traincrew’, and booked on duty at the same sheds or signing on points as the locomen; they had previously been ‘Traffic’, and had signed on at stations, or goods yards and depots.

 

Brake vans were still used  on class 7, 8, and 9 part or un- fitted trains.  On empty stock trains and parcels class 3, 4, and 5 trains the guard rode on the loco even when there was a vehicle in the train with guard’s accommodation, as there was no heating available to him.  Locos increasingly had steam heating boilers removed and in any case on a single manned such train, there was nobody to operate the boiler.  Some fully fitted trains had brake vans for operational reasons, such as propelling. 

 

In practice guards on single manned fully fitted trains communicated with the driver using the fire alarm test bell, and sat in the secondman’s seat in the back cab.  If the driver, who was and is in charge of the loco, requested it, they rode in front with him.  

 

The industrial disputes connected with these changes caused a considerable amount of bitterness and bad feeling, especially between secondmen and guards and between the two unions, for some time, and this was still palpable when I passed out on rules 2 years later.  Time healed most of the rifts, but promotion in the footplate grades was  by seniority, dead men’s shoes, and secondmen who had little chance of making driver before they retired or were made redundant because family or other commitments prevented them from moving to London depots to advance their careers were understandably less than tolerant of the guards, especially new intake men like me who they saw as having been recruited specifically to devalue their grade.  Some drivers felt the same way, and we had a bit of a point to prove!

 

Guards could and did find their way through engine rooms, flat out or not, summoned by drivers or secondmen  who had made tea.  The only ones I felt a bit uncomfortable in were the Valentas in the HST; these b*stards were uncomfortably loud in the original guard’s accommodation in the Power Car, one of the reasons it was moved into the TSO next door...

 

Single manning had of course been in place for years, on diesel and electric multiple units and on diesel shunting engines whose duties kept them off running lines. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by The Johnster

[Ken.W]

2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Requirement for brake vans on Class 3,4,5 and 6 trains ceased on 5th May 1969. A van was still needed if the loco was single cab such as a Class 20, as the Guard couldn't ride with the driver except as required under certain conditions laid down in the Rule Book.

 

Another exception was a van was still required when conveying certain classes of dangerous goods.

In event of an incident, the driver goes forward to protect the opposite line(s)

The guard goes back to protect his train and any parallel running lines...

He couldn't do so if on the engine if certain dangerous goods were involved.

 

1 hour ago, russ p said:

Supposedly  if it were a twin cab locomotive the guards must have gone through the engine room to tell the driver to stop rather than use the drivers brake valve to dump the brake. 

An odd situation as the guard may not necessarily know the route through the engine room and if the loco was flat out would he want to go in there?

 

Or he used the test button to ring the fire alarm

(yes, I have had that done)

[Sails]

This thread from a while back talks about the longevity of use of brake vans. 

 

 

Mark 

[Marshall5]

Either grey or bauxite - makes no difference on an unfitted train.

Ray.