Bay platform signalling issue

[Junctionmad]

In the attached photo.  You can see the bay starter , this position isn’t really working out as clearances are too tight  and to improve clearances , id have to move the starter back towards the buffers and the bay is already short , so putting the starter behind the loco/auto coach that typically lives here 

 

I know most likely the solution would be a two doll starter one for the up loop and one for the bay. But that would mean bringing the up loop starter back and that platform is short anyway ,

 

if I just converted the up loop starter to a two doll , it would cause the bay starter to be in the wrong position as locos would foul the goods exit 

 

so I’m thinking of leaving the up loop starter as a single pole 

 

what about one of these for the bay without the modern H&S stuff of course ,

unfortunately the platform is narrow ( things are tight in O gauge ) and another member just fitted a water crane !!! ) but the Reading engineers can pull rank !  

 

essentially I’m looking for “ prototype cover “ for my 

decision.  ( ps the wrong pattern loading gauge is now gone ) 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

This shows a similar arrangement with a single pole starter to the right and an offset gantry to the left ( it’s the same location different timeframe I think ) 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Junctionmad

[RailWest]

Err....there appear to be two routes beyond that ringed-arm signal, but only one arm.....?????

[Grovenor]

It looks just fine to me with the signal where it is, the clearances must be OK if its not getting hit.

Rgds

[Trainshed Terry]

I would be inclined to relocate the  bay plateform starter signal on to the platform to reduce signal confusion. Or a bracket signal post from the main plateform as have be illstruated by some of the images on the thread. 

 

From the image it looks that there could be limited clearance for trains leaving the goods road.

 

 

I hope you don't mind I fliped you image.

 

Terry.

[Junctionmad]

Thanks guys 

 

yes there are two routes out of the goods yard , there isa ground disk going on at the base of the goods signal to signal this move ( which is into the headshunt ) 

 

in fact because of the adjacent walk , sighting requirements would probably dictate that ground disk should be elevated up on a stub gantry ! 
 

I would have thought as a general comment that discs would be on the inside of the curve so it could be seen towards the front of a propelling train , no ? 
 

I appreciate the path of the shunter is into the V , 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

1 hour ago, Trainshed Terry said:

I would be inclined to relocate the  bay plateform starter signal on to the platform to reduce signal confusion. Or a bracket signal post from the main plateform as have be illstruated by some of the images on the thread. 

 

From the image it looks that there could be limited clearance for trains leaving the goods road.

 

 

I hope you don't mind I fliped you image.

 

Terry.

I agree , that my current thinking 

[Junctionmad]

2 hours ago, Grovenor said:

It looks just fine to me with the signal where it is, the clearances must be OK if its not getting hit.

Rgds

It’s too tight when we store long wagons or coaches in the sidings , and the Falcon is virtually brushing it. !!! 
 

Also to maximise bay space and signal sighting confusion , I think the gantry of the platform is a better bet. 

[The Stationmaster]

Simple answer is to just bring the signal back - probably onto the platform.  It definitely looks too tight for clearance where it is currently sited.  I doubt if you would have room for the larger diameter post of the bracket in the vicinity. 

 

A few other points -

 

1. The bracket at Banbury had no 'modern H&S stuff on it all when the picture you posted was taken, the only 'modern' thing is the addition of the numberplate.

2. I can't see any problem placing a co-located ground disc immediately in front of the siding signal - the path, to what extent there is on on that side is in the wrong place for a shunter to work as it goes into the vee of the pointwork and is on the wrong side for sighting on the curve - the path should be on the other side where there is more space and there is a clear view on the inside of the curve.

3. The position of the Rule 55 'diamond' on the big bracket slightly puzzles me as it is not clear which line it applies to. 

 

[Junctionmad]

The goods exit signal and the ground disc to be added are positioned to the eight solely because there is no space under the baseboard to the left at all. !!  Sometimes real life intrudes 

 

the comment Re the rule 55 diamond on the big gantry is valid. But all tracks ( 2) leading to this signal are track circuited as was the prototype , and hence the diamond applies to both approaching tracks. If you think there’s a better way to indicate this I’m all ears 

[RailWest]

>>>The goods exit signal and the ground disc to be added...

I would be surprised at mixing ground signal and ringed arm at the goods exit. I would have thought either bracket with two ringed arms (old method and no room for it really) or a double disc. Is there (to be) any signal at the far end of the LH road?

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The position of the Rule 55 'diamond' on the big bracket slightly puzzles me as it is not clear which line it applies to. 

There was a signal with one doll for each of the Up Main and Up Platform lines, albeit in LMR days, with a diamond on the doll for each line.

[TheSignalEngineer]

When I replaced the signal at Leamington with a cantilever colour light I provided a diamond sign next to each number plate.  These were removed when control was transferred to the panel.

[Junctionmad]

6 hours ago, RailWest said:

>>>The goods exit signal and the ground disc to be added...

I would be surprised at mixing ground signal and ringed arm at the goods exit. I would have thought either bracket with two ringed arms (old method and no room for it really) or a double disc. Is there (to be) any signal at the far end of the LH road?

 

The LH road is into the headshunt and hence imho is correctly signalled with a disc at the base of the running signal. There is no further signal on that road 

 

the ringed signal is there because that route leads out onto a main running line and onwards to the up main line 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

3 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

When I replaced the signal at Leamington with a cantilever colour light I provided a diamond sign next to each number plate.  These were removed when control was transferred to the panel.

My justification is all tracks to that signal are track circuited 

 

I draw my perspective from the likes of this 

 

having said that I can easily mod that signal and put diamonds on each main doll 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Junctionmad

[RailWest]

>>>>The LH road is into the headshunt and hence imho is correctly signalled with a disc at the base of the running signal. There is no further signal on that road...

 

But as far as I can tell from the photo the 'headshunt' converges with another line in the distance?

 

>>>My justification is all tracks to that signal are track circuited ....I draw my perspective from the likes of this...

 

But there is a difference. Your latest photo shows the (much missed!) former Exeter West Up Main Inner Homes, all of which applied to the one line visible in the foreground which was the Up Main, so IMHO one diamond on the whole bracket would suffice. However the bracket on your model appears to apply to two parallel lines and it could be the case that a diamond would be applicable only to trains on one of those lines and not the other.

[The Stationmaster]

On 31/10/2019 at 11:32, Junctionmad said:

The goods exit signal and the ground disc to be added are positioned to the eight solely because there is no space under the baseboard to the left at all. !!  Sometimes real life intrudes 

 

the comment Re the rule 55 diamond on the big gantry is valid. But all tracks ( 2) leading to this signal are track circuited as was the prototype , and hence the diamond applies to both approaching tracks. If you think there’s a better way to indicate this I’m all ears 

The diamonds should be on each main doll to make it clear which line(s)?signals they apply to.  

 

In the Exeter photo you posted (looks suspiciously like one of mine??) the signal only applies to one line  and you'll notice the diamond has been placed below the doll for the principal route although that  was probably the best place to put it for visibility - it does of course apply to the entire signal (the Up Main Inner Home Signal).

20 hours ago, RailWest said:

>>>The goods exit signal and the ground disc to be added...

I would be surprised at mixing ground signal and ringed arm at the goods exit. I would have thought either bracket with two ringed arms (old method and no room for it really) or a double disc. Is there (to be) any signal at the far end of the LH road?

A very pertinent comment which would exactly mirror the situation at, for example, Bodmin Road which can be found on this page of this thread although I've also added it below -

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48504-gwr-signals-and-where-they-go/page/4/

 

However that is an old signal so the arrangement using the smaller arm to read to the headshunt was well and truly obsolescent by the time tubular steel posts came into use.  You could - again thinking of examples from the real world - use the arrangement arrangements of two arms, one above the other, on a single post in this situation and not a bracket.  However we are one step ahead of ourselves here because the first thing to consider is the type of movement taking place from the signal and a semaphore would normally only be used where a train movement started away from such a location as a refuge siding.  if we are talking about a station goods yard even well before the tubular steel era signals reading out of  goods yard seem to have been exclusively ground discs (although as ever I wouldn't be surprised to find a variation somewhere or other - but that would have been unusual and for a very specific reason) and in any event for this siding anf train will come to a signal with a running arm before entering a block section so there is to justify a semaphore arm.

 

Whether it would be a single or double disc is partially an era thing as the GWR's approach did change over the years.   However one factor here is that we are in a situation where two different lines lead towards the headshunt and the siding has two routes towards it (unless the locking prevents that) so a double disc makes some sense in that respect as it would at least which route the movement will take out of the two available.   The headshunt will of cpurse not be of much use when a train has to be admitted to the loop platform because it is a conflicting route in terms of GWR locking.

 

[The Stationmaster]

37 minutes ago, RailWest said:

>>>>The LH road is into the headshunt and hence imho is correctly signalled with a disc at the base of the running signal. There is no further signal on that road...

 

But as far as I can tell from the photo the 'headshunt' converges with another line in the distance?

 

>>>My justification is all tracks to that signal are track circuited ....I draw my perspective from the likes of this...

 

But there is a difference. Your latest photo shows the (much missed!) former Exeter West Up Main Inner Homes, all of which applied to the one line visible in the foreground which was the Up Main, so IMHO one diamond on the whole bracket would suffice. However the bracket on your model appears to apply to two parallel lines and it could be the case that a diamond would be applicable only to trains on one of those lines and not the other.

Posted while my reply was being put together (as I needed to check some locking tables in respect of my final comment).   Agreed as posted above re the Rule 55 'diamond'.

 

Now as I partially explained the I also presume the headshunt in fact joins the line in advance of the passenger loop and the large bracket signal.  This immediately opens a 'lock yourself up in one easy lesson' situation because the point leading into the headshunt will be a potential conflicting route with the route from the platform loop as the distance between the two is comparatively short.  This in turn means the headshunt cannot be used from the sidings when a passenger train has to be signalled into the platform unless the road is set for it to rejoin the main line beyond the platform (the reason being that the FPL lever for the point back out onto the main line releases the signal reading from the main line into the loop and that needs all relevant points set accordingly) OR another ground disc is provided roughly parallel with the big bracket structure.

 

There are a some parallels with the situation on the i upside at Chipping Sodbury but the distances inbvolved are much shorter than they were there.

[Junctionmad]

We have discussed this track plan before, but to put the discussion in context , heres the control panel mimic ( i hope the numbers are clear )

 

Mike I will change the  diamonds 

 

 

 

Signal 41 is the bay that we discussed and 42 and 28 are the goods signal and the disc below it 

 

The slips are single slips , with no facing routes 

 

the  + and * are placeholders for LEDS etc 

 

Im confused re the discussion about the goods exit signal , to me the arrangement makes sense  of course you could argue that a double disk might be more realistic , but I like the goods exit signal !!!!. I would not agree it should be a splitting signal with two goods exit signals as the second route is not onto a main line, but I do accept in this era of largely tubular steel signals , it would have been a double disk ( I can easily retask that signal if I decide to replace it ) Its visibility makes it easy for the actual real life operators to see as well !!!. 

 

 

Disk 13 in the headhunt is being upgraded to a double disk 

 

Mike not sure what you mean re route " lockout " . Surely if a train is stopped at the starter in the UP loop , the exit from the goods is available , equally if a train is signalled back from the Up loop to the UP main , the route from the goods yard into the headhunt is still available !! ( via disc 28) 

 

what we call the "goods avoiding line" ,  ( which in the prototype was a loop with the goods shed ) , allows us to shunt while a train is standing on the UP loop platform .  Its  ( the  headhunt ) also designed to be converted to a Branch line in the future 

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Junctionmad

[Flying Pig]

That clears up a lot of confusion! Was I the only person looking at the photos and wondering why the 'headshunt' seemed to connect to an up running line without a trap or signal when junctionmad was saying it didn't?

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

We have discussed this track plan before, but to put the discussion in context , heres the control panel mimic ( i hope the numbers are clear )

 

Mike I will change the  diamonds 

 

 

 

Signal 41 is the bay that we discussed and 42 and 28 are the goods signal and the disc below it 

 

The slips are single slips , with no facing routes 

 

the  + and * are placeholders for LEDS etc 

 

Im confused re the discussion about the goods exit signal , to me the arrangement makes sense  of course you could argue that a double disk might be more realistic , but I like the goods exit signal !!!!. I would not agree it should be a splitting signal with two goods exit signals as the second route is not onto a main line, but I do accept in this era of largely tubular steel signals , it would have been a double disk ( I can easily retask that signal if I decide to replace it ) Its visibility makes it easy for the actual real life operators to see as well !!!. 

 

 

Disk 13 in the headhunt is being upgraded to a double disk 

 

Mike not sure what you mean re route " lockout " . Surely if a train is stopped at the starter in the UP loop , the exit from the goods is available , equally if a train is signalled back from the Up loop to the UP main , the route from the goods yard into the headhunt is still available !! ( via disc 28) 

 

what we call the "goods avoiding line" ,  ( which in the prototype was a loop with the goods shed ) , allows us to shunt while a train is standing on the UP loop platform .  Its  ( the  headhunt ) also designed to be converted to a Branch line in the future 

 

Using a ringed arm signal is of course a matter of choice and even though it's not strictly correct it does look nice and a bit different.  It's when we come to the route towards the spur (the GWR didn't do 'headshunts') that we hit a slight problem.  After a lot of searching I've found a single example of a ringed arm signal with a co-located disc but it is in a very unusual situation and to be honest I do wonder if the drawings, albeit in two separate secondary sources, are accurate. But I can find umpteen examples of 3ft signal arms, and even one of a centre pivot arm, on tubular steel post splitting signals - without or without ringed arms - reading towards a spur or dead end siding.

 

The 'locking yourself up' issue wouldn't apply with a train standing at the Up Loop starter when that signal is at danger but in view of the short distance between it and the big bracket I think the flank locking would be similar to the situation at Chipping Sodbury where the similar signals were 120 yards apart and there was a ground disc on the siding immediately in rear of the trailing point where the two lines join towards the spur so the flank situation was little different.  But in order to pull the Home Signal leading into the loop, and the loop starter towards the bracket without the route set out to the main line, the ground signals in the yard reading towards the spur were locked at danger.  So on a similar basis, and without an intermediate disc, you could not clear the disc from the sidings towards the spur at the same time as the Home Signal reading to the Up platform loop unless the loop exit points are set towards the mainline.    However it is highly unlikely that anybody who doesn't have an idea of (G)WR locking principles  is going to question it on a model railway

[Junctionmad]

I’ll need to read that several times to understand it 

 

Quote

But in order to pull the Home Signal leading into the loop, and the loop starter towards the bracket without the route set out to the main line, the ground signals in the yard reading towards the spur were locked at danger.

 

im quite happy that the route into the spur ( headshunt ) , would be locked out if the points were not set out to the main line , I would not expect a movement to be authorised simultaneously up the spur from the goods yard while the road from the platform loop to the spur was  not put to the main. 

 

But am I not correct in assuming that once the up loop is clear , with no route into it signalled , it’s entirely possible to exit the goods yard or exit to the spur , ie where the exit road to the main is not set , but there is no route into the loop signalled , ie only the main line is clear 

 

However i I would have assumed if the train was standing at the loop starter it would be possible to both exit the goods yard to the main line or exit to the spur 

 

if not what would you suggest should happen to allow the signalling to support it. 

 

Also would you therefore suggest a splitting goods exit or a double disk ?  Are you saying this arrangement wouldn’t have been used , I’d be happy to loose the ring 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Junctionmad

[The Stationmaster]

On 01/11/2019 at 23:06, Junctionmad said:

I’ll need to read that several times to understand it 

 

 

im quite happy that the route into the spur ( headshunt ) , would be locked out if the points were not set out to the main line , I would not expect a movement to be authorised simultaneously up the spur from the goods yard while the road from the platform loop to the spur was  not put to the main. 

 

But am I not correct in assuming that once the up loop is clear , with no route into it signalled , it’s entirely possible to exit the goods yard or exit to the spur , ie where the exit road to the main is not set , but there is no route into the loop signalled , ie only the main line is clear 

AGREED

 

However  I would have assumed if the train was standing at the loop starter it would be possible to both exit the goods yard to the main line or exit to the spur 

YES - PROVIDED THAT THE DRIVER OF THE TRAIN STANDING AT THE PLATFORM/LOOP STARTING SIGNALS WAS REMINDED THAT THE SIGNAL FOR HIS TRAIN IS AT DANGER AND HE HAS BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO MOVE HIS TRAIN

On 01/11/2019 at 23:06, Junctionmad said:

 

if not what would you suggest should happen to allow the signalling to support it. 

 

Also would you therefore suggest a splitting goods exit or a double disk ?  Are you saying this arrangement wouldn’t have been used , I’d be happy to loose the ring 

 

 

 

 

 

A co-located disc at a signal with siding/goods ring on the arm appears to have been extremely rare - as noted I have only been able (so far) to find a single example.  

 

The situation then boils down to which you want to use of the most commonly used signals in the real world in such a situation - that is either a splitting semaphore signal (with rings on the arms or modernised with ordinary 3 foot arms with no ring on the arms) or a double disc.  Splitting semaphore signals in such a situation definitely lasted into the 1960s and had been extremely common however, having looked now at numerous diagrams, the vast majority of them used separate dolls for each route and very few had the two arms on a single post.

 

However the use of a semaphore instead of a disc reading from a goods siding or small goods yard was unusual - their use normally being confined to situations where a train started away (e.g. a refuge siding or loop) although sometimes used to improve sighting in locations where there were a lot of movements (e.g. coming off a large loco depot).  That therefore points towards using a disc signal if you want to aim for real world realism and as you are using a double disc elsewhere you could reasonably use one here - that is what I would do in that situation. 

 

The potentially simplest way forward from where you currently are, with the least work - although very unusual in that sort of site in the real world - is to lose the ring off the arm and add a co-located disc.  Not really right and definitely atypical;  but maybe the simplest way to go?

[Junctionmad]

Thanks , double disk it is