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GWRSwindon

North Staffordshire Railway Derby to Crewe line

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5 hours ago, Argos said:

I should also add one imaginary line that was planned although I don't think got submitted to Parliament might be worth investigation.

 

The NSR did at one point promote its own line to Liverpool across the Cheshire plan with a viaduct across the Mersey of a similar length to the bridge at Runcorn.

 

If my memory serves me correctly this was probably more political manoeuvring because the LNWR at the time was running its Manchester traffic via Crewe over its own rails thus depriving the NSR of revenue. The route through Stoke to Manchester is shorter.

 

The NSR were very conscious of the power of their larger neighbour and the fact the the majority of their traffic departed (or entered) via connections to the LNWR at Colwich, Norton Bridge, Macclesfield and Crewe.

 

The LNWR in turn was always concerned that the NSR might fall into the ownership of a rival in the form of the Midland or the GCR (if memory serves even the GWR were sniffing around at one point).

 

They reached a truce whereby the LNWR routed a proportion of its Manchester traffic via Stoke and had running rights over the entire NSR network with a similar reciprocal arrangement for the NSR.

 

The NSR used these running rights for its longest passenger service from Derby to Llandudno which ran further on the LNWR than on its own metals, despite being NSR hauled for the whole journey.

It also accessed Buxton over the LNWR from the Middlewood curve off the Macclesfield - Marple line.

Well, I have a GWR username and a Watkin avatar, so it appears I'm always in a state of confusion!

 

Thanks for the help, my current plan is this: at some point in the 1890s, the MS&LR/GCR decide to get a Nottingham cut-off, and reach an agreement where they use the NSR for Macclesfield to Egginton Junction, and the GNR for Egginton to Nottingham. While "might-have-beens" don't have to be plausible, I like to at least try.

 

It would have been quite interesting to see what would have happened had the MS&L been able to acquire the NSR, as they nearly did in 1876. 

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21 hours ago, Poggy1165 said:

For an imaginary scheme you just have to imagine that railway history changed from what it actually was. No one will put you in jail for coming up with something improbable.

 

In the 1890s or very early 1900s the GC had a scheme for a massive "cut-off" from the Nottingham area to the Manchester area by way of Leek and Ashbourne. (I came across this when reading a book about the history of the Leek and Manifold.) I have to say it was one of a number of grandiose schemes the GC was allegedly involved in at this time, for which greater or lesser amounts of evidence exist.

 

How they (or anyone) imagined the capital might be raised is beyond me. However you could, for example, imagine a situation where the NSR granted running powers to avert such a proposal. If I wanted to model such a scenario, I'm afraid I would not allow trifles such as financial probability stop me, nor yet the likely opposition of the LNWR. After all, the London extension was not exactly built on the basis of the plaudits and support of other companies.

 

Sabre rattling is rife throughout British railway history, this scheme probably had no intention of being built, but was a percieved threat from one railway company to another to get the former what they wanted from the latter one way or another

The great thing about proposals like this is that it gives us great opportunities to model what ifs, you can use prototypical stock but invent your own history and reality, the world's your lobster.

 

Mike.

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8 hours ago, Argos said:

Here we go. They were the G class:-

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSR_G_class

 

These were tender versions of the 4-4-2 (K class I think)

 

I believe the Knotty also provided the motive power for some LNWR London - Manchester expresses routed via Stoke; possibly between Crewe and Manchester? I thought I'd seen a photo; having tracked it down, it does show G Class 4-4-0 No. 170 at the head of a Manchester express leaving Crewe but it's piloting a Claughton. Stock is LNWR of course.

 

J.H. Adams' later North Staffs classes were uniformly handsome - their high-pitched Belpaire boilers and heavy front framing (piston valves) giving the a go get 'em look. The Gs were built at Stoke in 1910 and the Ks the following year (as one might expect for the class letter!) so it's presumably a case of the latter being a tank engine version of the former; the New C class 0-6-4Ts of 1914 have many of the same family characteristics. The LMS classified the Gs and Ks 3P, a classification that they handed out rather sparingly to pre-grouping 4-coupled classes, so they must have been pretty good.

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The Knotty did indeed provide the motive power for the Manchester -Euston service. The change over point was Stoke. Although I always presumed this was via Macclesfield rather than Crewe due to the shorter distance. The Knotty's range of tank engines was normally sufficient for this service.

 

Using Stoke as a change over point ways puzzled me as the LNWR had no engine shed or servicing facilities at Stoke.

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17 minutes ago, Argos said:

The Knotty did indeed provide the motive power for the Manchester -Euston service. The change over point was Stoke. Although I always presumed this was via Macclesfield rather than Crewe due to the shorter distance. The Knotty's range of tank engines was normally sufficient for this service.

 

Using Stoke as a change over point ways puzzled me as the LNWR had no engine shed or servicing facilities at Stoke.

 

Ah, that's what I thought; the photo at Crewe must have been an unusual event. 

 

It wouldn't be that unusual for one company to have reached a rental agreement for use of another's shed facilities; on the other hand the LNWR engine may simply have turned and headed off again fairly promptly.

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19 hours ago, DonB said:

 

Can't argue from a firm footing here. I don't know whether the NSR predated the LNWR at Derby. I based my assumption on someone referring to the pair of lines adjacent to the foundry wall as being "LNWR metals", the evidence of the LNWR loco shed being on land which became part of the foundry, and the S.Staffs Willington Junction from Derby and B'ham metals.

 

The junction where the goods lines joined the main lines on the 'West' road between Derby and Pear Tree is known as LNW Junction. Tracks on the opposite side to the goods lines led to St. Andrew's Goods Yard which is marked on a 1921 map as "L&NW & NS Goods Station", those companies accessing the facility by running powers from either Willington North Stafford Junction or Wychnor Junction. The North Stafford also had their own engine shed in Derby on the site where the power signal box was built in the 1960s.

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The HMRS journal ran a series of articles by David Jolley on the NSR carriages, volume 17, numbers 1; 3; 6; 8; and volume 18, number 3.

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4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Sabre rattling is rife throughout British railway history, this scheme probably had no intention of being built, but was a percieved threat from one railway company to another to get the former what they wanted from the latter one way or another

The Settle & Carlisle is a classic example of sabre rattling not having the intended purpose.

Like Austria's response to the events of summer 1914 in Sarajevo...

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Other than Christiansen and Miller's history of the NSR and Chadwick's book on wagons, does anyone have some recommendations for books to give me some background on the NSR, especially the Derby-Crewe line?

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1 hour ago, GWRSwindon said:

Other than Christiansen and Miller's history of the NSR and Chadwick's book on wagons, does anyone have some recommendations for books to give me some background on the NSR, especially the Derby-Crewe line?

 

Those are the only books I've ever read on the Knotty; I have a copy of the latter though have yet to build a NSR wagon.

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Hi GWRswindon,

 

There is another history written by "Manifold" which I believe is a pseudonym used by a group of NSR enthusiasts. I haven't read it yet as I'm still trying to track down a reasonable prices copy.

 

As with most railways it is the branch and secondary lines that seem to get all the published attention.

 

There is a comprehensive NSR bibliography here

 

http://www.nsrsg.org.uk/books.php

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5 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Other than Christiansen and Miller's history of the NSR and Chadwick's book on wagons, does anyone have some recommendations for books to give me some background on the NSR, especially the Derby-Crewe line?

 

North Staffordshire Album by George Dow. Ian Allan 1970, SBN 7110 0128 6

 

North Staffordshire Railway by Basil Jeuda. Cheshire Libraries 1986, ISNB 0 904332 21 6

 

The Potteries Loop Line, An Illustrated History by Allan C. Baker. Trent Valley Publications 1986, ISBN 0-948131-20-9 (Hardback) or 0-948131-21-7 (Paperback)

 

There is also a book covering the Churnet Valley Line but that has gone into hiding at the mo.

 

Admittedly not specific to the Derby to Crewe line but that line is included in some of them and the rest may be of interest to others.

 

54 minutes ago, Argos said:

Hi GWRswindon,

 

There is another history written by "Manifold" which I believe is a pseudonym used by a group of NSR enthusiasts. I haven't read it yet as I'm still trying to track down a reasonable prices copy.

 

I believe that 'Manifold' was a pseuodonym of the late Doctor John Hollick who was a GP in Ashbourne. Presumably he took the name from the valley of that name famous for it's narrow gauge railway.

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Theres:

 “The Knotty- an illustrated survey of the North Staffordshire Railway” Basil Jeuda Lightmoor Press 1996

ISBN 1 899889 01 9.

”North Staffordshire Locomotives-an illustrated history” Ken Hopkins Trent Valley publications 1986

hardback ISBN 0 948131 13 6, softback ISBN 0 948131 14 4

”Locomotives Illustrated No. 136- North Staffordshire Railway Locomotives” March - April 2001

RAS publishing.

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18 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Other than Christiansen and Miller's history of the NSR and Chadwick's book on wagons, does anyone have some recommendations for books to give me some background on the NSR, especially the Derby-Crewe line?

 

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Those are the only books I've ever read on the Knotty; I have a copy of the latter though have yet to build a NSR wagon.

The Basil Jeuda books others have noted are excellent publications, and he has contributed detailed articles in Railway Archive as well.

The Chadwick book is, to me, very much a curate's egg. Lots of details, including many company drawings, but there seem to be yawning gaps with little or no information in some areas. There is another book on rolling stock, the Oakwood Press one from 1981, by R W Rush. This seems to be rather more comprehensive, as it includes carriages and locos, as well as wagons, but the author had a slightly tarnished reputation for his sometimes imaginative interpretation of drawings, which are fairly basic, but it does fill some gaps, providing photographic evidence can be found to back up the drawings.

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:offtopic:

Possible expansion plans beg the question of what about the NSR's ambitions for the rest of Staffordshire, which after all was a large county in those days. Even one end of the Victoria Bridge on the Severn Valley was just in the extreme south-west corner. 

 

The Lines on Cannock Chase were ripe for picking in the 1850s. The Cannock Mineral Railway was being eyed up by the South Staffordshire Railway with a view to extension north of Walsall and a possible direct link with the NSR rather than joining the LNWR at Rugeley to form a link from the Black Country to the edge of Lancashire.

Other suitors of the CMR had ambitions to build a branch linking with the OWW at Wolverhampton. One possibility would have been to link the OWW at Cannock Road via the Cannock network to the NSR thus giving a through route to the Manchester area via the Macclesfield, Bollington & Marple and the MSL/Mid joint line through Romiley.

Edited by TheSignalEngineer
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26 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_offtopic.gif

Possible expansion plans beg the question of what about the NSR's ambitions for the rest of Staffordshire, which after all was a large county in those days.

 

The North Staffordshire, along with the Furness, had the most geographically restrictive names of any of the pre-Grouping companies* - just one part of a county - rather in contrast to the vast territory eyed up by the compact Hull, Barnsley & West Riding Junction Railway & Dock Co. or Lancashire, Derbyshire and East Coast!

 

*At least in their settled form, not counting early lines that became constituents of other pre-Grouping companies, such as the South Staffordshire. 

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In fairness to the NSR they didn't really have ( or need) grand ambitions. They came into being to plug the gap in the rail network through the Potteries left after the Manchester & Birmingham abandoned it's intended line south of Macclesfield when it agreed to the amalgamation that formed the LNWR.

 

It was always going to dependent on its neighbours for traffic arrangements and was keen not to upset the status quo. In return through its local industrial and passenger traffic it became one of the most consistently profitable pre-grouping companies.

 

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1 hour ago, Argos said:

In return through its local industrial and passenger traffic it became one of the most consistently profitable pre-grouping companies.

By virtue of its position and history and with the area being well served by canals (which the NSR bought up) at the beginning of the railway age it had a virtual monopoly of originating traffic from the Potteries up to Grouping. Its neighbours needed it to get their incoming traffic to its destinations so it was in a win-win situation.

Edited by TheSignalEngineer

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Concerning 'Manifold', this was the very fitting name chosen by the group of authors who combined to publish 'The North Staffordshire Railway' in 1952.  In its Foreword the members were named as J R Hollick, C A Moreton, G N Nowell-Gosling, F M Page, and W T Stubbs, most of whom contributed to the magazines of the time.  And it is worth tracking down. 

Edited by Boldon Boy
spelling!
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9 minutes ago, Boldon Boy said:

Concerning 'Manifold', this was the very fitting name chosen by the group of authors who combined to publish 'The North Staffordshire Railway' in 1952.  In its Foreword the members were named as J R Hollick, C A Moreton, G N Nowell-Gosling, F M Page, and W T Stubbs, most of whom contributed too the magazines of the time.  And it is worth tracking down. 

There was also a small additional volume published by them. I was once offered a copy, but at the time was extremely impecunious and could not afford it. 

Never seen it since.

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7 hours ago, Boldon Boy said:

Concerning 'Manifold', this was the very fitting name chosen by the group of authors who combined to publish 'The North Staffordshire Railway' in 1952.  In its Foreword the members were named as J R Hollick, C A Moreton, G N Nowell-Gosling, F M Page, and W T Stubbs, most of whom contributed to the magazines of the time.  And it is worth tracking down. 

 

Several copies on Abebooks.

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Returning to the theme of what was, or might have been, carried on the Stoke- Derby line; gypsum was mined near Tutbury. It was used for mould-making for ceramics. There was also beer traffic from Burton; a shift on a pot-bank was hot, dusty and tiring, and the workers would have a terrible thirst.

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On 03/11/2019 at 11:04, DonB said:

Can't be sure, but the NSR GN may have carried Scandinavian pig iron from the docks to a large malleable iron  foundry (Leys) at Derby, who had a siding (1875 -on) alongside the main lines approaching Derby station, and an array of sidings within the works which expanded with the growth of the business. see  Industrial Railway Record (No. 125 IIRC) 

Reference to the IRS Archive gives:

No.122  September 1990

Eighteen Inch Gauge Heavyweights (S.Africa)

A Light Rly on Stanton Moor, Derbyshire

Ley's Sidings (Derby),

Hope that this helps,

Martin

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Thanks Martin,  I have mislaid my copy of the IRS No.122 -- Which is very careless of me since I worked for Ley's for 25 years and wrote the IRS article.

It took me about 4 years to gather all the information about the sidings, I pestered anyone leaving for any historical items or photos that may have been lurking in desk drawers, and I was allowed access to a basement full of historical   bits and pieces. 

On the 50th anniversary of the 1875 foundry opening, all employees were photographed at their place of work. I found the original 5"x 7" glass plates which should also be in the Derby Museum stores.  All my original finds were passed on to a Colleague (Bob Read) who wrote a history of the works.

There was follow up information in the IRS journal a few months later. 

The foundry closed in about 1995, and is now an Industrial estate although the wall bordering the Railway was still standing when I last passed over the rail bridge a couple of years ago.

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