Maunsell and Bulleid 2 and 3 car sets for the B.R.(S) S.E. section in 'O'/7 m.m.

[SouthernEMU]

Hi.  I have a very helpful and comprehensive list printed off from the SEMG web site (circa 2008) of S.R/B.R.(S) coach sets.  I am interested in what would still be running in 1963 up to possibly 1964, on the S.E. Section of

B.R.(S) using suitable/available Maunsell kits in 'O' gauge?  I found a U.K. site that is still selling the Kirk kits of Maunsell stock, and Slaters still shows one model of a Maunsell kit in 'O'.  I am assuming that the 1936 built Maunsells with high windows (and maybe low window stock?) were still running up to possibly 1965, but mostly on the Reading to Tonbridge Wells to Brighton lines?  Similarly, what Bulleid stock was running on the S.E. Section in either 2, 3, or even 4 car formation in 1963/4, and would any of the r.t.r. Bulleid coaches manufactured by J & M Hughes in 'O' be prototypical?  Thanks again for all the very informative help on this forum for newbies such as myself.  Cheers, EW

Edited November 22, 2019 by SouthernEMU
the site moved a line of type for unknown reason

[Simond]

Ian Kirk is still trading.  I think he’ll be at the Reading show on 7th Dec.

 

hth

Simon

[Nearholmer]

And, he is an active participant in RMWeb.

[mike hughes]

14 hours ago, SouthernEMU said:

Hi.  I have a very helpful and comprehensive list printed off from the SEMG web site (circa 2008) of S.R/B.R.(S) coach sets.  I am interested in what would still be running in 1963 up to possibly 1964, on the S.E. Section of

B.R.(S) using suitable/available Maunsell kits in 'O' gauge?  I found a U.K. site that is still selling the Kirk kits of Maunsell stock, and Slaters still shows one model of a Maunsell kit in 'O'.  I am assuming that the 1936 built Maunsells with high windows (and maybe low window stock?) were still running up to possibly 1965, but mostly on the Reading to Tonbridge Wells to Brighton lines?  Similarly, what Bulleid stock was running on the S.E. Section in either 2, 3, or even 4 car formation in 1963/4, and would any of the r.t.r. Bulleid coaches manufactured by J & M Hughes in 'O' be prototypical?  Thanks again for all the very informative help on this forum for newbies such as myself.  Cheers, EW

That’s me mentioned. At the moment for the Maunsell coaches, I do the high window 6-compartment corridor Brake third, corridor door third, corridor composite, Restaurant Dining, Restaurant First (which can be modified for variants) Buffet car. When I get a chance I’ll add the diagram numbers. I do the low window open third which along with the 1935 Brake composite form the push-pull sets 601 etc. I do the 1935 open third as well. The high window ones can be made into Restriction 1 stock as well.

For the Bulleid coaches at the moment I do the brake semi open third, corridor composite and Brake corridor composite (diagrams D2405 & 6) all these are 10” vents. 

Other diagrams can be drawn up if required. 

The Oakwood press books on the Maunsell and Bulleid coaches are very helpful with the sets and when they were withdrawn. 

 

Michael 

[Oldddudders]

15 hours ago, SouthernEMU said:

Hi.  I have a very helpful and comprehensive list printed off from the SEMG web site (circa 2008) of S.R/B.R.(S) coach sets.  I am interested in what would still be running in 1963 up to possibly 1964, on the S.E. Section of

B.R.(S) using suitable/available Maunsell kits in 'O' gauge?  I found a U.K. site that is still selling the Kirk kits of Maunsell stock, and Slaters still shows one model of a Maunsell kit in 'O'.  I am assuming that the 1936 built Maunsells with high windows (and maybe low window stock?) were still running up to possibly 1965, but mostly on the Reading to Tonbridge Wells to Brighton lines?  Similarly, what Bulleid stock was running on the S.E. Section in either 2, 3, or even 4 car formation in 1963/4, and would any of the r.t.r. Bulleid coaches manufactured by J & M Hughes in 'O' be prototypical?  Thanks again for all the very informative help on this forum for newbies such as myself.  Cheers, EW

Kent Coast Electrification virtually wiped out steam-hauled trains on the SE Division by 1962. Yes, Reading-Tonbridge (not Tunbridge Wells) was still steam until 4.1.65, but I think 3D DEMUs had infiltrated the Tonbridge-Brighton route by then. And Maunsells were on their uppers, with so many newer Bulleid vehicles being cascaded from the SED by your dates. 

[Nearholmer]

There were through trains from Brighton, I think as far as Redhill, but not all the way to Reading, and possibly not as late as 1963.

 

i can check for 1950s if needed, but I don’t have the timetables for early 60s, just books with photos, so less definitive.

[SouthernEMU]

Thanks again for all the replies.  I re-checked the SEMG site, and it shows a photo on the Maunsell page of unit 457 at Reigate, looking towards Redhill, but on the listing of coach sets, it notes that 457 - consisting of coach 3701 and 5612 (formed June 1963, withdrawn May 1964), was used on the Reading - Tonbridge (not TWW as I had noted) - Brighton.  Could REA(ding) be a typo on the listing?  Similarly unit 459 (photographed at Eridge) consisting of 3713 and 5628 - which remained in service until 1965 - is noted as running on the same route according to the list. Note: Redhill, or its abbreviation code, is not listed on the site. 

I also found units 955 and 958 consisting of BTK-CK-BTK operating on the London - Folkstone - Ramsgate service until 1963.  It does not indicate the coach type(s) in all cases.  I will look for the Oakwood Press book(s).

Just curious, but was Reading to Tonbridge to Brighton a regular route for B.R.(S). in the 60s, or as Nearholmer notes, not likely?

 

 

[Kubes]

I think Sets 955 and 958 were from the last Maunsell designs with frameless droplights and a different arrangement of windows and doors on the corridor side. Unfortunately they cannot be made from Slaters or Kirk kits.

Kubes

[Nearholmer]

I would be interested if anyone can give a definitive answer on this, but my reading(!) of the situation is that:

 

- there weren't public passenger timetabled services that extended beyond Brighton-Tonbridge, and Tonbridge-Reading. They are shown in different tables, and none that I have access to seem to have notes indicating services spanning the two;

 

- however, there were definitely, at some dates, locomotive diagrams that continued uninterrupted from Brighton-Tonbridge services as far as Redhill, the implication being that it was the same loco and coaches ceasing to be service X at Tonbridge, and becoming service Y. Dead easy given the arrangement of platforms;

 

- given that Redhill is a reversing point,  with shed and turntable, it is logical that the loco came off there to be replaced by one on the other end, but equally logical that the coaches continued to Reading.

 

So, it needs some close work looking at timetables for services with suspiciously similar arrival and departure times at Tonbridge, which I haven't got time to do now, or copies of carriage working diagrams.

 

K

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Kubes]

And Set 459 sounds like a scratch set formed from two coaches from disbanded set  219 which was an eight coach set of 8' 6" Maunsell high window carriages. Again not Slaters or Kirk

Kubes

[Kubes]

You are quite correct about the diagramming. Many services on the secondary Central and Eastern SR lines were worked like this and the stock would be widely travelled across the division.

[SouthernEMU]

21 hours ago, Kubes said:

I think Sets 955 and 958 were from the last Maunsell designs with frameless droplights and a different arrangement of windows and doors on the corridor side. Unfortunately they cannot be made from Slaters or Kirk kits.

Kubes

 

21 hours ago, Kubes said:

21 hours ago, Kubes said:

And Set 459 sounds like a scratch set formed from two coaches from disbanded set  219 which was an eight coach set of 8' 6" Maunsell high window carriages. Again not Slaters or Kirk

Kubes

 

Many thanks Kubes as this will save me both time and money if the kits are not correct for the location and date that I have chosen.  On double checking the later SEMG site list rather than mine from 2008 (which is faded and hard to read), it would seem that with the B.R.(S) electrification scheme (1959 onwards?), many of the Bulleid and Maunsell coaches were moved to the Central and Western Section (I found much of this info. on the 4 m.m. models and kits pages of SEMG).  So, back to the drawing board!

Cheers.

[SouthernEMU]

Thank you Mike - I struck Gould.  Found his book (new copy) on Maunsell coaches at a U.K. booksellers and it's on its way.  The book on Bulleid coaches (1994) is out of print, and not available.  Would a used 1980 copy be as up-to-date?