Small layout - 4x1 comments please!

[Steam Rich]

Hi all

I am just getting back into modelling after a few yeaars break.

Planning a small OO 4ft x 1ft western region steam micro.

Got a couple of OO tank locos, 2 mark 1 coaches and a pile of wagons along with 2 of each short left, short right, small wye points.

 

A quick play around today and I have come up with these 2 ideas.

 

First is a single track through station with station, coal yard (bottow leftt) and goods siding bottom right, The grey is a road,.  This will have a fiddle yard at both sides.

 

The other is similar but has two tracks off to the left to give a bigger loop to allow longer passenger train.  This can be a thorough station with a fiddle stick to the right or could be a terminus.

 

Any comments welcome

 

[Dava]

Quote

 

 

If you go for the top one with the loop and move the point for the first siding to the loop road immediately after the loop point, your siding can be as long but will shunt better. You could also extend the loop with the space saved.

 

Dava

[Dungrange]

I think the loop is too short in the first image.  If you intend for this to perform the function of a 'passing loop' then it's not long enough to accommodate both a locomotive and one single coach.  Whatever you run in the opposite direction will hit either the locomotive or the coach depending on where your train is placed.   If it was only to be used as a 'run round loop' then it looks big enough to accommodate a single coach (there looks to be around 10" between your clearance points), but that doesn't fit with the idea of a fiddle yard either end, which implies through running.

 

As such, I'd prefer your second image, although I'd be tempted to shift the platform to the left, so that it is actually adjacent to a train sitting in the loop, so that you can run round whilst passengers are boarding or alighting from the train.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Steam Rich]

1 hour ago, Dava said:

If you go for the top one with the loop and move the point for the first siding to the loop road immediately after the loop point, your siding can be as long but will shunt better. You could also extend the loop with the space saved.

 

Like this?

[Dungrange]

Yes, that's better.  The only potential issue is that you've changed the hand of the point leading into the siding.  I'm not sure if that is a problem (ie you already have the points), but if it is, then you should be able to use the right hand point shown in your first plan by moving the left siding closer to the right one.  It looks like your loop is now around 15" between clearance points, so depending on the length of your tank wagons, that's probably enough space to allow two one coach trains to pass, but I'd make sure you test the clearances before you commit to the plan.

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, Steam Rich said:

Planning a small OO 4ft x 1ft western region steam micro.

Got a couple of OO tank locos, 2 mark 1 coaches and a pile of wagons along with 2 of each short left, short right, small wye points.

 

So, if you are willing to be flexible on prototypical accuracy, perhaps consider 1 or 2 of Hattons upcoming Genesis coaches - these are entirely fictional but based on a combination of the various pre-grouping designs (and essentially designed by RMweb committee).  Good price, nice and short so they may fit your short run around loop or alternately allow you to have the illusion of a bigger train with more (short) coaches.

 

Perhaps your model is a branch line where the good traffic is still reasonable, but the passenger part is barely hanging on and so hasn't seen any upgrading in the coaching stock in 30 years?

 

Just an idea to consider.

[DCB]

4 X 1 is very small for a reasonable representation of a standard gauge station in 00 gauge, You really need 14" each end of the run round, = 28" plus the length of the train you wish to run round for an effective run round loop even with Peco small radius streamline points, a Mk1 is 11 " so that's 39" for one Mk1 or 48" for two and that's the length of your board, without anywhere for the loco to stand clear of the points. lower plan in post 1 is OK  but you are going to need a FY a couple of feet long minimum or a traverser so you are up to 6X1 effectively.

Much better to do it as some industrial sidings or a shunting plank  with 4 wheel wagons and small locos until you can blag some more space.

[Harlequin]

Hi SteamRich,

 

If there’s room for a fiddle yard at either end, then the same space would support a larger scenic area and a single FY. That would mean yet another BLT layout, admittedly, but you can see why they are so common.

 

The platform needs to be aligned with the loop.

 

The road crossing makes it very difficult to disguise the track's exit to the right.

 

What do the two sidings do and why do they have separate connections to the main line? More likely to just have one connection and then fan out but In the space available it might be better to just have a single siding.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Harlequin

[Harlequin]

Branch Line Terminus

[Pacific231G]

On 04/01/2020 at 22:01, Steam Rich said:

Hi all

I am just getting back into modelling after a few yeaars break.

Planning a small OO 4ft x 1ft western region steam micro.

Got a couple of OO tank locos, 2 mark 1 coaches and a pile of wagons along with 2 of each short left, short right, small wye points.

 

A quick play around today and I have come up with these 2 ideas.

 

First is a single track through station with station, coal yard (bottow leftt) and goods siding bottom right, The grey is a road,.  This will have a fiddle yard at both sides.

 

The other is similar but has two tracks off to the left to give a bigger loop to allow longer passenger train.  This can be a thorough station with a fiddle stick to the right or could be a terminus.

 

Any comments welcome

 

Hi Rich

Some kind of shunting layout is a good alternative and an Inglenook sidings or a double crossover  arrangement will fit in 4ft x 1ft without needing a fiddle yard. I don't though know for how long  a shunting puzzle would keep one's interest.

If you want a branch line terminus with both passenger and goods operation, a scenic length of four feet is tight but possible and many such layouts have been built.  To give just one example, I saw a very neat BLT layout called Amworth built by Ron North at Wycrail in 2016. I'm pretty sure Amworth was five foot by one foot  but that included at least a foot of fiddle yard. I think the points may even have been medium rather than small.

 

Ron was using a wagon card  system and inviting the public to operate the layout. I did have a play with it but others seemed more hesistant which was curious as he'd done the same with his very neat 4ft x 1ft Littleworth Sidings Inglenook two years earlier and a lot of visitors tried their hand with that Possibly they felt daunted by the idea of operating a "proper" layout.

Amworth does also show the value of introducing a slight curve in the trackplan and avoiding geometrically straight lines. I also liked his idea of sceniccing the back and layout side of the fiddle yard so that when you looked through the bridge you saw the other side and not a void. 

 

 

[class37418stag]

Hello 

 

I like narrow and longer layout of 5 feet x 1 feet of Amworth 

 

maybe I follow Amworth track plan BUT will be modern 1990s of DMU class 122, 150, 153 and some Railfreight wagons and vans and station of wooden platform 

[LBRJ]

That has achieved a remarkable amount of spaciousness for such a small scene, and a very deft touch with the scenics, colours, proportions etc

[Dungrange]

On 06/01/2020 at 15:16, Pacific231G said:

To give just one example, I saw a very neat BLT layout called Amworth built by Ron North at Wycrail in 2016. I'm pretty sure Amworth was five foot by one foot  but that included at least a foot of fiddle yard. I think the points may even have been medium rather than small. 

 

I doubt Amworth is that short.  Looking at your photograph from above the length of the layout is much more than five times it's width, which means that it can't be 5' x 1'.  Looking at the stock, I suspect that the layout is 1' wide, but the layout seems to be made using two baseboards of equal length, which I'd suggest are about 3' 6" each, giving the layout a total length of about 7'.  I suspect that might be 5' from one end to the point in front of the bridge and a further 2' for the bridge that forms the scenic break and the fiddle yard- ie the fiddle yard proper is probably about 18 - 20".

 

It is however a very nice layout.

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

I doubt Amworth is that short.  Looking at your photograph from above the length of the layout is much more than five times it's width, which means that it can't be 5' x 1'.  Looking at the stock, I suspect that the layout is 1' wide, but the layout seems to be made using two baseboards of equal length, which I'd suggest are about 3' 6" each, giving the layout a total length of about 7'.  I suspect that might be 5' from one end to the point in front of the bridge and a further 2' for the bridge that forms the scenic break and the fiddle yard- ie the fiddle yard proper is probably about 18 - 20".

 

It is however a very nice layout.

Yes. It did seem a bit tight so I must have had it confused in my notes with with another layout that was 5x1 inc Fiddle. It's taken a bit to track it down but, according to  one exhibition page John Gay's Amworth is 8ft  long in total. I'l try to find that other layout but I've come across several "proper" termini that were only 4ft long plus fiddle but looked much longer (plus a few that looked cramped)   

[PatB]

For what it's worth, a sketch for a 4x1 terminus appears in the back of older editions of 60 Plans for Small Railways. It used the then new small Y throughout, included a bay platform, a loco shed and two sidings, along with a run-round loop that appears intended for 2 coaches (although that may have been short Triang clerestories rather than full length Mk1s. 

It's not exactly lavish, and the use of Y points for the loco release introduces a kink in the platform that many would find annoying, but it does look build able. Whether anyone has is another matter. 

On similar lines, a very young Ian Futers built a quickie layout for RM c1972 which was a BLT in, IIRC, 4'6". It didn't look bad at all. The compromises inherent in building a layout in a week were far more intrusive than those resulting from building a layout in a yard and a half. 

So it can be done, even if such compression is unfashionable. 

[alastairq]

Set diagonally across 4x1 might add a few bits of inches?

 

Personally I like the BLTs that have a smaller [run around] loop for goods only, with the exit track having a single platform on it, for an auto train or railcar.

Most of the board length given over to sidings, etc....with passengers being dealt with ona come & go basis.

[FraserClarke]

On 04/01/2020 at 22:01, Steam Rich said:

Planning a small OO 4ft x 1ft western region steam micro.

Got a couple of OO tank locos, 2 mark 1 coaches and a pile of wagons along with 2 of each short left, short right, small wye points.

 

First is a single track through station with station, coal yard (bottow leftt) and goods siding bottom right, The grey is a road,.  This will have a fiddle yard at both sides.

 

Small stations, short trains, GWR...  you could do a lot worse than look at the Culm Valley Railway in Devon for inspiration.  Ian Rice has a few plans based on this line. I think "Finescale in Small Spaces" has a few of them.  

The prototype stations to scale would work out more like 7-8ft, but you could compress them a bit. In particular, if you're happy to use the fiddle yard as the run-around loop.  Attached are a couple of ideas roughly inspired by Hemyock, which was the end of the line.  The goods line though extended a bit further to a dairy - so you could have quite a short fiddle stick to represent this.  

I used 'mid-size' points for this, as I think the flow is better even in a small space. 

 

The first one I swapped the station around a bit. It gives some nice view blocks, but I don't think it really looks very GWR.  The three-way point is a useful tool in this space though.  Headshunt + coal yard/cattle dock would get complicated and you'd probably end up pushing everything to the left. 

 

 

Second one uses a single slip to provide the entrance to the run-around and the goods yards in one.  I think this has a more open country feel to it. 

I measured up a 14xx+autocoach, and made the platform long enough for that (440mm).  Hemyock had a cattle dock beyond the platform, which could add nicely to the shunting potential.  The single slip makes the run-around a bit more challenging to use...

View blockers less obvious in this one...

 

 

 I'm not sure I'm quite happy with either of these. I think there is a better plan in there (no doubt others have already found it!) -- but the washing up needs doing! 

 

How much do you want through running for the main trains? I've also been thinking about doing a similar kind of layout -- small scenic section + two fiddle yards, because I want to have some trains run straight through -- even if only for four feet! 

 

[PatB]

Here's a fairly rough and ready SCARM effort at the 60 Plans 4x1 terminus. It's early 60s origins are fairly obvious, but it's a complete and operable terminus, using r-t-r track, in 4x1. Bay platform at top, loco shed upper left, general goods siding bottom, loading/cattle dock alongside loco release. Unless I'm missing something in my measurements, there's also ample clearance for a pair of Mk1s between fouling points in the loop. Shunting needs to take place on the main line, so a fiddle yard road must be kept clear. Motive power would be limited to 0-6-0 tanks or similar, which probably isn't a major problem in so tiny a station.

 

[Nearholmer]

At 4ft x 1ft in ‘public railway standard gauge’ its always a choice between:

 

- a small extract of reality modelled to near-accurate dimensions, which tends to heavily restrict operational possibilities; or,

 

- something that has greater operational potential (as per previous post) but is unashamedly a caricature.

 

Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice!

 

One arrangement that I think offers a lot it little is the “high level passenger shuttle; low level goods yard”. I don’t know who first devised it, but it’s been done by multiple people down the years and Paul Lunn has made it his own in recent years.

 

Here is a back of a fag packet version, which I know will work using Peco small radius points in 4ft x 1ft, and which I think could be scenified very well for 1950/60s West London Suburbs. 14xx and autotrailer or various railcars  upstairs; a lot of different tank engines and diesel shunters downstairs. The GWR had a couple of Sentinel 4wVBTG that were used in this area, I think, as well as their first 350hp diesel shunter (lined green livery, with shunter's truck!), and some special short-wheelbase pannier tanks, and that's before BR designs arrived.

 

I'm thinking Brentford, Southall, Acton, Ealing, Greenford, Park Royal, Hanwell sort of area, which was very busy with all sorts of medium/large factories making everything from chocolate to porcelain (enamelled iron) baths from the 1920s to 1960s.

 

The big view-blocker building to the left foreground could be almost any factory - Wernham Hogg Paper Company, with David Brent’s dad in charge of the office at the time, would work rather well!

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Booking Hall]

If you take a look at my thread 'Far Wittering' - link below - on page 1 I've posted it's inspiration, a trackplan of a layout in 4ft x 9inch (plus fiddle yard) which appeared in the RM for December 1984. I've upsized this to 4' 10" x 1' 2" (because that's the maximum size that will fit comfortably in the car!) and added a couple of extra sidings. A fiddleyard only 1' 6" long would be adequate for the original plan.

[Dzine]

Hi Steam Rich,  I'll be at the York (Heworth) exhibition later this month with my layout planning and design clinic.  Sessions are free (though you'll have to part with a little money to get into the exhibition), so if York is near to you please pop in and I'll do my best to help.  Regards Paul

[class37418stag]

Hello 

 

Amworth layout is 8 feet x 1 feet ?

 

 Thank you 

[sb67]

Hi SteamRich, how are you getting on with your plan, have you looked at many layouts? There's a few good ideas been posted.   Far wittering is fantastic and there's a couple I'd recommend searching for, although there's not too many pics of them. Hepton Wharf and Llanstr are superbly modelled stations as is Ruyton Road which is a fantastic light railway station.

I'd recommend looking at stuff by Chris Nevard and Paul Lunn's plans, there's a micro layout book of his which is great and full of ideas, if you can get to the York show and visit his clinic that would be worthwhile.

Although you're building a micro layout I'd recommend taking a bit of time over planning it and making sure it gives you what you want. 

Good luck, I'll look forward to seeing some pics of your layout.

[Nearholmer]

Has anyone mentioned the great resource assembled by Carl Arendt?

 

Start here, but the current curator has slightly rearranged things, so go back to the root of the tree too - there is a lot more on other branches. http://www.carendt.com/articles/

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Dungrange]

7 hours ago, class37418stag said:

Hello 

 

Amworth layout is 8 feet x 1 feet ?

 

 Thank you 

 

Yes - that looks to be the most likely dimensions for the layout. 

 

Look at the photograph of the layout from above and it does indeed appear to be around seven or eight times longer than it is wide.  It would be impossible to fit what has been portrayed including the fiddle yard into a length of five feet and retain the spaciousness.