Owen E Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 I received a Triang LMS Jinty with an X03 motor today (nice and cheap). Typically the second-hand seller's description wasn't quite on the money! (But this doesn't surprise me now.) The motor works - it takes current, it turns, the loco runs. However, even with a fullish service, it's very, very jerky, running poorly, and stopping - but there's still an electric hum, so I take it there's still adequate current. Nothing is getting visibly stuck. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Demagnetised magnet would be my first guess. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen E Posted January 16, 2020 Author Share Posted January 16, 2020 I had wondered if it seemed a little weak. Have I seen some people offering magnetizing services? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Where are you based? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted January 16, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2020 @Owen E First of all I'd establish if it is the motor or the chassis that's at fault. Remove the motor, it's only one screw and a clip, and see how well the chassis runs without it. If it binds or sticks etc then the wheels may be out of quarter. If the chassis runs fine then we can start to look at the motor. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Some folk have used a neo magnet just placed on the existing one in attempt to prove/improve magnetism fade. A simple test is can you pick up the motor with a screwdriver blade attracted to the magnet. If not then send it for remagnetising - several folk provide this service. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen E Posted January 16, 2020 Author Share Posted January 16, 2020 I'm in Durham. I'm pretty sure the magnet is the problem. Aside from being notably weak on picking up a screwdriver, I've also used a phone app. On the other two engines on my bench (Ringfield A4 Silver Fox and HP Class 101) it measured 1200; the X03 measured 500 at most. Redgate: I will unscrew that back screw just to check if the fit there is poor. Thanks for the idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Could be pickups, they sometimes get gunge between the brass strip and the back of the wheel. Super Neo magnets work better than tired old standard ones but usually the armature is well roasted and the commutator solder well fried by the time anyone thinks of changing or remagnetising the magnet. I bought some super neo disc magnets with a hole in which revitalised an X04 without rattling the bearings around like the "Proper" X04 shape super neo magnets you can buy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen E Posted January 18, 2020 Author Share Posted January 18, 2020 Thought an update might be in order. I got some Neo magnets and fit one, though my magnetometer app did read higher on the old magnet than it had before. I wonder whether really, in the final event, it's just the motor windings that are knackered; the new magnet will give them one last bit of work, though, I guess. (I can always buy a new X03). With the Neo magnet it immediately began driving notably better, but a bit jerkily/noisily, so I checked dry spots and lubricated with Fleischmann. It's now running *MUCH* better. However - the wheels sound noisy on the track, and it's very slightly less happy going forward than back. Either direction, for reliable running, it needs nearly half power to go, and then it's quite quick, but I understand that's normal for the motors. If anyone has any final advice on that slight directional preference/noisy wheels, please do say, Other than that, many thanks, so far it's been a marginally successful repair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 To respond to the comment about jerky movement and needing a lot of welly to get going - I put a circular neo into a ringfield and it is as smooth and responsive as I could wish for, however putting a pair of arch shaped neos into a different ringfield gave the same result as yours, in that it would not run at less than half throttle and slow control was impossible so I reverted to a new normal magnet set. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) On 18/01/2020 at 21:52, Owen E said: However - the wheels sound noisy on the track, and it's very slightly less happy going forward than back. Either direction, for reliable running, it needs nearly half power to go, and then it's quite quick, but I understand that's normal for the motors. If anyone has any final advice on that slight directional preference/noisy wheels, please do say... Noise. There's direct conduction of the motor chatter and gear noise via the chassis block to the axles and thus wheels, and so to the rails. If the rails are well coupled to the baseboard (pinned or glued down), this acts like the loudspeaker cone of a wind up phonograph, the large area providing quite efficient coupling to the air mass. (Run it on flying leads and compare how the noise output is very much reduced when you pick it up. All that vibration you can now feel in your hand is converted fairly efficiently into sound by any coupling of the track to the base board.) Directional preference. Most models spend a lot more time going forwards than in reverse. More wear on the gears for the forward direction; and if it has really had a lot of use, also on the axle and crankpin bearing surfaces. Seen plenty of old examples with the axle and crankpin holes worn oval. Edited January 21, 2020 by 34theletterbetweenB&D word ordering to correct 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 On 18/01/2020 at 21:52, Owen E said: Thought an update might be in order. I got some Neo magnets and fit one, though my magnetometer app did read higher on the old magnet than it had before. I wonder whether really, in the final event, it's just the motor windings that are knackered; the new magnet will give them one last bit of work, though, I guess. (I can always buy a new X03). With the Neo magnet it immediately began driving notably better, but a bit jerkily/noisily, so I checked dry spots and lubricated with Fleischmann. It's now running *MUCH* better. However - the wheels sound noisy on the track, and it's very slightly less happy going forward than back. Either direction, for reliable running, it needs nearly half power to go, and then it's quite quick, but I understand that's normal for the motors. If anyone has any final advice on that slight directional preference/noisy wheels, please do say, Other than that, many thanks, so far it's been a marginally successful repair. Sounds like the driving wheel flanges could be hitting the rail chairs. The old solid non see through Triang wheels are prone to this on modern track, Code 75 you can guarantee it, code 100 track it depends on the make, The wheels come in Mazak and Iron versions. Mazak, grey monkey metal, can be filed down fairly easily in a lathe, drill chuck or by spinning the loco wheels against a file or emery cloth, even a stone, where as the Iron ones basically can't. Far too hard. To check take the motor out and push the chassis by hand, if you feel the sleepers then its the flanges hitting. You can also fit Markits wheels but the loco won't be a cheap and cheerful "cheapie" any more. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I still have some of these chassis with the solid mazak wheels that run ok on my code 75 track. B2B has been adjusted though. Stewart 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen E Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 Very helpful, all. I'll have a look at the wheels - I certainly have noticed their comparative size/depth/weight, say compared to my 70s and 00s J83s! If I can file them slightly that might help. They're pretty grey wheels, so perhaps mazak? I have done a little of gauging on the wheels (they're a little narrow), though the sheer width of the wheels has made the need less pointed - there's no wobble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 you might want to check the resistance of the motor winding with an ohm meter. Triang used to supply one as a dealer service tool. you can use any multi meter set to ohms. Take the brushes out, put the probes on the segments of the commutator, then do the same with the next 2 and the next 2. you should get more or less the same reading between the pair. That will show if one or all the windings are defective. I can't remember what the figure should be, it's a long time since I learnt about such things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen E Posted February 14, 2020 Author Share Posted February 14, 2020 Thanks Roy. Will try that at some point. Follow up question to all: both my Jinty and Pannier with said motors are cleaned up and technically up for anything. However, both now share a worrying habit: sparking/arcing on the commutator face/cylinder as they run. Any thoughts? This has happened in the context of being clean, including commutator slots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 14, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2020 2 hours ago, Owen E said: Thanks Roy. Will try that at some point. Follow up question to all: both my Jinty and Pannier with said motors are cleaned up and technically up for anything. However, both now share a worrying habit: sparking/arcing on the commutator face/cylinder as they run. Any thoughts? This has happened in the context of being clean, including commutator slots. Perhaps you got a small about of oil on the commutators slots? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen E Posted February 14, 2020 Author Share Posted February 14, 2020 Perhaps, but I doubt it - I clean the slots, and have done so on both *since* I last lubricated motor bearings on either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted February 14, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2020 How bedded in are the brushes? They should have a small concave face on them (not the whole face being concave). Have you got any suppression components connected across the motor? Andy G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebbles Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 It is possible that you have raise a slight burr between the commutator segments when cleaning them. Wrap a piece of P1200 fine wet and dry around the commutator and revolve the armature by hand without imposing undue pressure. You can finish off by using metal polish on a piece of fine cloth and cleaning with thinners. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen E Posted February 14, 2020 Author Share Posted February 14, 2020 Andy - they've both sparked with old brushes, I did replace the brushes on the Jinty last night as hers were very low, but that didn't increase sparking (it did improve running, though!). The Pannier has a suppressor at the wire join, Jinty doesn't anymore. Pebbles, I'll have a go - that sounds plausible! It would explain why normal cleaning methods have exacerbated an issue. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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