Block instruments and bells

[St Enodoc]

14 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Too many bells all going off together and constant "Was that you" called from one station to another.

The same with a superb layout I have the privilege to operate when I'm in Melbourne - 9 stations so too many bells. That's why I'm using lights.

[Richard Mawer]

17 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I never used to bother with bells until I learned when I got to operate a big layout with 12 stations that had them. Even then, I wasn't hooked. Too many bells all going off together and constant "Was that you" called from one station to another. It was, however, where I learned the basics of working hem.

 

Then I got to operate Buckingham. As I knew the basics, I could just drop onto a station and run it, as if I had known it for years.

 

The timetable and the operating system, including the bells, were and are just so absolutely natural and an integral part of the joy of the layout. Now, even when I operate a layout that doesn't have bells, it just feels as if something is missing. I find myself muttering "ding, ding" under my breath! It is a bit of a standing joke amongst my friends. Many see the bells as a joke and make comedy "Ding " noises or Quasimodo references every time they are mentioned. 

 

I would never suggest or dare to say that those who don't like block bells and block instruments should be forced to use them, or should even try them if they have no interest in that type of operating. But I wouldn't want to go back to asking the next operator "Can you take the express now?" when the real railway had a perfectly good way of doing it that I can replicate in model form.

 

But at the risk of upsetting folk, dare I suggest that "I don't like/want/enjoy block bells" or "Should model railways use block bells?" is not really what the thread is about.

 

   

I thought you must have missed it! Glad to help.

 

I have to echo Tony’s comments: for me the operation is what it is all about and the bells (like a timetable and fast clock) add the missing dimensions to the normal 3D model. For me a layout is not complete without them.

 

I was enthralled by the Gainsborough Model railway and Buckingham as a lad. Thanks to Tony, operating Buckingham became a dream come true.

 

DCC has put operators in the role of the driver, but I like layouts where you are in the role of the signalman. 

 

My layout is a massive tip of the hat to Buckingham (very obviously!) and we use block bells. The positioning of the bell and the pitch and tone are key to recognising which ones are ringing and frequent operators tend to recognise them. Using a timetable and fast clock also helps because you should be expecting a bell or not. However visitors (and the rest of us) do get confused from time to time, so we have lights as well. These are operated by Arduinos and are triggered by the bell. Because of the layout design, all but one operating panel has just one bell so a simple LED suffices. When a bell is rung, the light illuminates for a few seconds and then flashes quickly for a couple of seconds, then slowly before going out. A simple glance solves the problem of “was that you?”.

 

This comes into its own at Evenley where there are 3 bells and of course for visitors.

 

At present I do not have Block Instruments, but I have designed the wiring and bought the components. They will be wired with the signals into the cab control we use. I have designed a pair of semi-virtual single-line token instruments for the branch too. I am in two minds whether to make all of them. Its an added layer of operation that I would love, but many visitors have a bit of trouble with the Block system as it is.

 

I do not have room for proper Instruments so haven’t even attempted. My bells are under the layout and simple not latching solenoids strike them. The tappers are Morse Keys bought from eBay. 

 

The instruments (if I make them) will be small plastic boxes with chicken-head knobs, pictures of the GWR block instrument quadrants with coloured LEDs in each corresponding segment. No moving needles I’m afraid.

 

I’m sorry but the photos are quiet early on in my thread and I can’t drag them here.

 

 

 

[uax6]

Here we go, photo overload! Hopefully I have got all you need, but the block is fairly easy to find in the store, so I can drag it out if required again! I think I can confirm that the metal legs are indeed nickel plated brass, as you can see they have been rubbed through on mine! Also the two holes on the base are for screwing the block to the block shelf, any wiring to the block going up through the legs. I don't have a key to lock mine, so its all open (which is good and bad at the same time! Anyway, on with the photos:

 

Andy G

[uax6]

 

Theres another 35 photos to go, but I've reached my upload limit for the minute, so I'll have to come back and add them later!

 

Andy G

Edited May 4, 2020 by uax6

[uax6]

11 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Hi Andy,

Do you know hold old? I have a good run of early RMs.

There was an article in the March 1948 MRC by C.W.Aatkin  describing what amounted to a tokenless block system. He'd faced the same problem of wanting to operate a single track line in a way that for the operators would simulate a token block system without actually having tokens.

 

 

A wiper on the arm connected to the knob bridged the two or three contacts in each of the instruments three positions. In the "normal" token in position each local controller had control of its station as far as the shunting limit but the "token" section between was dead. After the usual exchange of bell codes, with the knob actinf as plunger, both operators would turn their pointer to up or down token out as approrpriateand the offering end would then keep control of its own shunting area, and get control of the token section and the accepting station's approach as far as the home signal. If the pointers were not in agreement than the token section would remain dead.   Aatkins suggested that the home signal at each station could close a switch to extend the sending station's control all the way into the platform but  I think I prefer the convention  that an operator drives a train towards them not away but that would simply involve reversing some of the wiring.

 

 

I have to say that the above looks to be a very nice way of doing things. I would love to have a pair of these instruments made up, as they are probably the best way of doing single lines for model railways. What we would need is someone who could make you some nice timber cases.... ;-) I would suggest that the knob is slightly different though, have a tubular commutator spindle, with the bell plunger running down the middle, that way you will be able to grip the commutator and bell with the palm of you hand and then turn in one action.

 

Andy G

[uax6]

And I continue: Can you guess where this block came from?

 

[uax6]

[t-b-g]

Brilliant photos! Many thanks for taking the time and trouble to do that.

[uax6]

[uax6]

And as a final shot, here she is in full glory:

 

Andy G

[SHMD]

Just clicking thanks is just not enough!

 

These photos are showing me more detail than I could ever have assumed!

They also show how to (re)produce these much more easily.

I particularly like (find useful) all the close up and especially, the workings of the mechanisms.

 

 

I big thank you to you, I will endeavour to put your efforts to good work.

 

 

Kev.

[uax6]

Thats a pleasure! Its rare that I have something that someone else wants to see, and in this case it was no real hardship to take as many photos as I did! It was harder loading them up here TBH!

If you need any more info let me know!

 

Andy G

[Harlequin]

Yes, many thanks Andy. I've been watching this thread with great interest and it's fascinating to see the workings of these old machines.

 

Just out of curiosity, a lot of the electrical components are made from a dull silvery metal, that doesn't look like iron (no rust) or stainless steel (not shiny). I've encountered it before in pre-electronic devices. I guess it's some sort of alloy. Does anyone know what it is?

 

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I'm probably being dense but, apart from tokenless block instruments used by the W.R. how did a single line block instrument that wasn't part of a token machine function? I thought the token machine was the block instrument on a single track line. 

 

Let's see if I've got this right  so can explain it in simple English.

On a double track line,  in 'our' box, each instrument connected to another box (one each side unless ours is a junction box) has a commutator and a lower needle (to confirm the state of the circuit)  for the line towards us. When the other box offers us a train and the  line is clear we can accept it and confirm that by setting our commutator (and their upper needle) to line clear. The other box can then clear the train to enter the block and lets us know by sending train in section on the telegraph. We then move the commutator to  train on line, until the train arrives intact and clears the block. We then send train out of section on the telegraph and confirm that by restoring the commutator to 'normal/line blocked' and the other box can then in due course offer us another train.  

Conversely, when we offer a train to the other box and they can accept it they confirm that by moving their commutator to line clear, and the upper needle in our instrument shows that. We can then signal the train to enter the block and send train in section on the telegraph when we expect to see our upper needle moving to train on line until it clears the section.

In simple terms each instrument has a commutator to set a needle in the instrument in the other box and a needle that their commutator sets in ours (the lower needles just confirms that the appropriate indications are being sent)   but the two circuits are independent of one another as are the two lines of track.  

 

Assuming I've got that right so far,  what I don't understand is how that works with a single track as the section cannot be in two states at once, it's either occupied or not so can't (or can it? ) be blocked/normal in one direction and clear or train on line in the other and you surely couldn't have line clear in one direction and train on line in the other though the normal block instruments could be set that way.   So how does an instrument that indicates the state of a line where there can be both up and down trains (not at the same time) operate and is it part of the token (or tablet or even ball in India) instrument?

Not sure if this is the right place (especially as i recently covered much of this elsewhere) but there are various things which are very different with Tokenless Block.  I must immediately add that my experience and familiarity (and R&R qualification) was with the WR system which was, I understand, in some respects different in some respects from the contemporaneous ScR system and possibly from later BR versions  (although the instruments used with the latter look like the WR ones.

 

But to explain one major difference the first thing you need to appreciate is that most British block systems work as a 'closed' block.  That means that the Signalman at the advance end of the section has to control that section and has to give a direct authority for a train to enter the section in response to it being offered to him by the Signalman at the 'box in rear.  A moment's thought will quickly explain why things are done this way - the man in advance is the one who, by observing that a train leaves the section complete with tail lamp, is the one who knows when the section is clear.   The closed idea was a distinct advance on early ideas which used the open approach but in the early days of railways led to collisions when a second train entered a sev ction before the first had left.

 

 Thus the closed block idea ensured teh space separation between successive trains.    Exactly the same applies on single lines with the additional requirement to prevent trains going in opposite directions meeting each other in the single line section.  Over the years various mechanisms were invented to achieve that and all of them until well into the 20th century included giving the Driver something as visible authority to enter the single line section if his train was to run through that section - that visible authority might be a trains staff; a 'ticket' after being shown the train staff; an electric train staff, miniature electric train staff,  a tablet, or a token withdrawn from an instrument electrically connected with a similar instrument at the other end of the section and usually requiring in some way or other the co-operative actions of both Signalman in order to release the token etc.   An early exception was the use of Single Line Lock & Block where there was nothing handed to the Driver and autthority to enter the section was simple the lowering of the relevant stop signal but single line lock & block tended to involve vw ery complex block instruments plus something to actually detect the arrival of a train (usually a treadle).

 

The next development was to use continuous track circuits through the single line and an Acceptance Lever in each signal box - together these proved the section clear and released the signals at the opposite end of the section while locking the signals at the end accepting the train.  But that required track circuiting through the whole of the section and that was increasingly expensive.  So something more radical was need and the WR system, developed originally for singling of the Salisbury - Exeter line was much more radical and steered away from various older ides.  Firstly, and most importantly, it did not require the simultaneous presence of the Signalmen at both ends of the section in order to allow a train into the section.  The big idea was that the Signalman could preset the instrument and then go off and do something else although in reality this never happened to any real extent.  The other important idea was that the traditional process of Signalmen offering and accepting trains was done away with, the basic premise was that trains would be worked to timetable and the 'receiving' Signalman would simply pre-set his instrument which would mean that he needn't be present to physically accept the train although the man at the 'box in rear would still offer it, albeit in a very different way from traditional block working.  There would, obviously, be no such thing as a token and the Driver's authority to enter the section would be the clearing of the Section Signal (which the Railway Inspectorate insisted should be a colour light signal.

 

All of this in turn meant that the block instrument would be very different in both appearance and operation from the 'traditional' appearance of a block instrument let alone  bearing no resemblance at all to a token etc machine.  Here is a WR instrument -

 

The method of operation was very straightforward.  If a Signalman knows a train is expected to enter the section at the other 'box and the indicator is at 'Normal' (indicating that the section is clear) and the switch is also at 'Normal' he will turn the switch to the 'Accept' position.  The instrument will remain at 'Normal' until the Signalman at the end of the section where the train will enter the section presses the 'Offer' button on his instrument and the commutator will then move to 'Train Accepted' on both instruments.   (the system can also be worked with the 'Offer' button being pressed before the other Signalman places his switch to 'Accept')

 

Neither of the Signalmen need take any further action - as the train passes the Section Signal to enter the section it will operate a short track circcuit which will cause both instruments to show 'Train In Section'.  when the train arrives at the 'box in advance it will need to both occupy and then clear a track circuit in advance of the Home Signal after which, provided the train is complete with tail lamp, the Signalman there may turn his switch to 'Normal' once the train has passed his Clearing Point.  The indicator will then reset to 'Normal'.  incidentally I believe the WR system originally used a treadle instead of a track circuit to detect when a train had arrived last the Home Signal.

 

The WR system was basically fairly clever with some useful features - which were never really exploited in respect of utilising signalmen on other work mainly because most of the signal boxes involved weren't suitably sited for them to go off and do something else.  But while it was a good system it was fan med for its poor reliability and if I had £1 for every time I was got out of bed when the block failed between Wilton and Yeovil Jcn for the 01.45 Waterloo - Yeovil news train i wouldn't be at all badly off.  This lack of reliability led to the fascinating situation where we had a very special form of Pilotman Working without a Pilotman - quite usual nowadays but very radical back in the late 1960 s/early 1970s with only three of us authorised to use it under special authority from the Dept of Transport when we were 'On Call'.  basically what we did was act as a sort of block section controller checking what the previous train had been with both 'boxes before authorising the 'box in rear to allow the train to pass the Section Signal at danger.  But 'real' working by Pilotman was supposed to be introduced as quickly as possible - fortunately the paper train usual cleared the problem and after one of the Westbury S&T Techs rewired part of that circuit that problem went away.  but it wasn't the only place where failures occurred alas.  

 

So in my view a very good system but at times let down by poor reliability although it worked much more reliably when the WR used it elsewhere.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, uax6 said:

And as a final shot, here she is in full glory:

 

Andy G

Hi Andy

A really excellent set of photos; thank you so much for postingt them. 

I'm confused about one thing though. I looked up Howe Bridge East and it was a double track junction between the Eccles, Tyldesley & Wigan Line running West to East and the Atherton East Curve (limit 20MPH) that connected it at Atherton Junction with the North -South Bolton & Kenyon line.

 

However, on the OS 25" maps for the period indicated by the maintenance note (and every other such map before and after) all the lines around that junction - including Atherton West Curve- were straightforward double line with simple double track junctions and no sign of any single direction relief lines. I would assume therefore that the LMSR were using separate up and down instruments at that time (or at least they were at junction boxes). Your instrument would therefore have probably come from, Atherton (Bag Lane) Junction Box at the other end of the curves or Howe Bridge West Junction box the next box on the Eccles line and the Howe Bridge East label would refer to it as the box that instrument was accepting trains from.  It might possibly have been from the next box to the east, Chanter's Sding, but I'd expect that to just have up and down instruments. 

If it was Atherton Junction  the northern junction for both West and East curves and they were using single direction instruments there woud have been a total of eight of them in the box, four senders and four receivers (I'm not sure if that's the correct term) . 

All fascinating stuff of course and I love those sold brass contacts so thanks again for the photos. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Pacific231G

[t-b-g]

29 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Hi Andy

A really excellent set of photos; thank you so much for postingt them. 

I'm confused about one thing though. I looked up Howe Bridge East and it was a double track junction between the Eccles, Tyldesley & Wigan Line running West to East and the Atherton East Curve (limit 20MPH) that connected it at Atherton Junction with the North -South Bolton & Kenyon line.

 

However, on the OS 25" maps for the period indicated by the maintenance note (and every other such map before and after) all the lines around that junction - including Atherton West Curve- were straightforward double line with simple double track junctions and no sign of any single direction relief lines. I would assume therefore that the LMSR were using separate up and down instruments at that time (or at least they were at junction boxes). Your instrument would therefore have probably come from, Atherton (Bag Lane) Junction Box at the other end of the curves or Howe Bridge West Junction box the next box on the Eccles line and the Howe Bridge East label would refer to it as the box that instrument was accepting trains from.  It might possibly have been from the next box to the east, Chanter's Sding, but I'd expect that to just have up and down instruments. 

If it was Atherton Junction  the northern junction for both West and East curves and they were using single direction instruments there woud have been a total of eight of them in the box, four senders and four receivers (I'm not sure if that's the correct term) . 

All fascinating stuff of course and I love those sold brass contacts so thanks again for the photos. 

 

I had wondered about that too. On the GCR, their instruments had an extra plate. They used, certainly in many cases, separate instruments for up and down lines but the instruments were plated to show which they were for. They would most commonly be marked "Up line" or "Down line". I am sure the signallers would have known which instrument was for which line but it would seem reasonable to have them marked for total clarity.

[The Stationmaster]

17 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I had wondered about that too. On the GCR, their instruments had an extra plate. They used, certainly in many cases, separate instruments for up and down lines but the instruments were plated to show which they were for. They would most commonly be marked "Up line" or "Down line". I am sure the signallers would have known which instrument was for which line but it would seem reasonable to have them marked for total clarity.

Depends on how things were arranged.  On ordinary double line instruments all that was needed, at the very most, was a label to indicate which 'box they communicated with or to distinguish Main from Relief Line etc instruments.  No need to show Up & Down at all because a pegging instrument would apply to a section in rear of the 'box and an non-pegger would apply to a section in advance,   If it was a 'double decker' instrument usual practice - definitely on the Western but no doubt elsewhere - was for the indicator nearest the commutator to be the pegger and the other indicator to be the non-pegger so a Signalman automatically knew which line (in terms of Up or Down) it applied to and the 'box diagram should show the name of each line.

[t-b-g]

20 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Depends on how things were arranged.  On ordinary double line instruments all that was needed, at the very most, was a label to indicate which 'box they communicated with or to distinguish Main from Relief Line etc instruments.  No need to show Up & Down at all because a pegging instrument would apply to a section in rear of the 'box and an non-pegger would apply to a section in advance,   If it was a 'double decker' instrument usual practice - definitely on the Western but no doubt elsewhere - was for the indicator nearest the commutator to be the pegger and the other indicator to be the non-pegger so a Signalman automatically knew which line (in terms of Up or Down) it applied to and the 'box diagram should show the name of each line.

 

That is fair enough and makes perfect sense. Even somebody like me, who has a basic enthusiast knowledge, could have a decent stab at telling which instrument was for sending and receiving a train in a signal box, so a fully trained up professional passed to work in the box would have no problems.

 

I only mentioned it because the GC labelled theirs as "Down Line" or "Up line" and wondered if this was common or unusual.

 

 

 

[uax6]

7 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Yes, many thanks Andy. I've been watching this thread with great interest and it's fascinating to see the workings of these old machines.

 

Just out of curiosity, a lot of the electrical components are made from a dull silvery metal, that doesn't look like iron (no rust) or stainless steel (not shiny). I've encountered it before in pre-electronic devices. I guess it's some sort of alloy. Does anyone know what it is?

 

 

I wonder if the terminals are brass with a plating? Maybe nickel plate again?

 

Andy G

[uax6]

7 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Hi Andy

A really excellent set of photos; thank you so much for postingt them. 

I'm confused about one thing though. I looked up Howe Bridge East and it was a double track junction between the Eccles, Tyldesley & Wigan Line running West to East and the Atherton East Curve (limit 20MPH) that connected it at Atherton Junction with the North -South Bolton & Kenyon line.

 

However, on the OS 25" maps for the period indicated by the maintenance note (and every other such map before and after) all the lines around that junction - including Atherton West Curve- were straightforward double line with simple double track junctions and no sign of any single direction relief lines. I would assume therefore that the LMSR were using separate up and down instruments at that time (or at least they were at junction boxes). Your instrument would therefore have probably come from, Atherton (Bag Lane) Junction Box at the other end of the curves or Howe Bridge West Junction box the next box on the Eccles line and the Howe Bridge East label would refer to it as the box that instrument was accepting trains from.  It might possibly have been from the next box to the east, Chanter's Sding, but I'd expect that to just have up and down instruments. 

If it was Atherton Junction  the northern junction for both West and East curves and they were using single direction instruments there woud have been a total of eight of them in the box, four senders and four receivers (I'm not sure if that's the correct term) . 

All fascinating stuff of course and I love those sold brass contacts so thanks again for the photos. 

 

I'm not entirely sure which box, but it could be from Howe Bridge West. I suspect that you may be right in as much as the curves may have been worked by these single line instruments... I may never find the truth!

 

Andy G

[SM42]

Here's a  more modern take on the block instrument from Blakedown.

 

 

The big silver button is the tapper. very satisfying clunk with a hint of squeak to it.

 

The three buttons under "To Kidderminster," operate the block to Kidderminster Jn box, (i.e control the section from Kidderminster - Blakedown) the indication lights lights below.

The lights above repeat Kidderminster's intrument  for the section from Blakedown to Kidderminster.

Two lamps on each in case of the failure of one.

 

The block bell? A dome bell looking thing on top of a wooden case on the floor inside the panel. I suspect it was kept when the old frame was removed and the chip shop style panel installed. Gravity was its anchor to the floor.

 

Andy

[Pacific231G]

On 04/05/2020 at 19:13, uax6 said:

 

I'm not entirely sure which box, but it could be from Howe Bridge West. I suspect that you may be right in as much as the curves may have been worked by these single line instruments... I may never find the truth!

 

Andy G

The Signalling Record  Society may be useful there.

 

On 07/05/2020 at 21:48, SM42 said:

Here's a  more modern take on the block instrument from Blakedown.

 

 

The big silver button is the tapper. very satisfying clunk with a hint of squeak to it.

 

The three buttons under "To Kidderminster," operate the block to Kidderminster Jn box, (i.e control the section from Kidderminster - Blakedown) the indication lights lights below.

The lights above repeat Kidderminster's intrument  for the section from Blakedown to Kidderminster.

Two lamps on each in case of the failure of one.

 

The block bell? A dome bell looking thing on top of a wooden case on the floor inside the panel. I suspect it was kept when the old frame was removed and the chip shop style panel installed. Gravity was its anchor to the floor.

 

Andy

Hi Andy

That's fascinating. Essentially, all the functionality of a traditional electro-mechanical set of block instruments   carried out by a simple set of lights. Don't we know of a greatly missed Cornish clergyman who did just that? (albeit with three way rotaty switches  rather than push buttons)

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Pacific231G

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

The Signalling Record  Society may be useful there.

 

Hi Andy

That's fascinating. Essentially, all the functionality of a traditional electro-mechanical set of block instruments   carried out by a simple set of lights. Don't we know of a greatly missed Cornish clergyman who did just that? (albeit with three way rotaty switches  rather than push buttons)

 

Using switches/buttons and lights for block instruments on control panels was quite a widely established idea where there were sections leading to/from panel worked areas when Track Circuit Block didn't apply.  And of course the ultimate was where Track Circuit Block applied in one direction and Absolute Block applied in the other.  

 

It was always nice on a warm day to be standing on Swindon station for the train home from work listening to the block bell in Swindon panel that you could hear clearly when the window was open although in that case the line to Gloucester was TCB but without trains describers.

Edited May 9, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[t-b-g]

41 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Using switches/buttons and lights for block instruments on control panels was quite a widely established idea where there were sections leading to/from panel worked areas when Track Circuit Block didn't apply.  And of course the ultimate was where Track Circuit Block applied in one direction and Absolute Block applied in the other.  

 

It was always nice on a warm day to be standing on Swindon station for the train home from work listening to the block bell in Swindon panel that you could hear clearly when the window was open although in that case the line to Gloucester was TCB but without trains describers.

 

You have reminded me of an early experience of block bells. Stainforth and Hatfield had the signal box on the platform and a bench nearby. As a youngster, 14 or 15, spending school summer holidays dozing on the bench with a jam butty and some Tizer, waiting to hear the bell through the open window. Then the code would ring out, and I had worked out which code meant which sort of train. The only thing I didn't know was which way it would be going. You had to wait for the swish of the signal wires and to see which of the rather ancient semaphores would go up.  One in particular swayed like a tree with rotten roots!  The train would arrive and go, or pass and I would doze off again until the next.

 

Happy times. 

[SM42]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Using switches/buttons and lights for block instruments on control panels was quite a widely established idea where there were sections leading to/from panel worked areas when Track Circuit Block didn't apply.  And of course the ultimate was where Track Circuit Block applied in one direction and Absolute Block applied in the other.  

 

 

 

Blakedown was exactly that, Absolute block to Kidderminster, track circuit block to Stourbridge Jn.

 

Further south there was a similar arrangement at Hartlebury which was Absolute Block to both Kidderminster and Droitwich Spa and again used a chip shop style panel. Rotary switches there though for the block instrument and plastic push buttons for the bell. The button on the block to Kidderminster used to light up when the bell rang.  I have a poor photo somehwere of the panel

 

Again seemingly second hand bells on wooden cases on the floor inside the panel.

 

One thing about those push buttons at Blakedown, they were only small but there was a hell of a lot on the back of the panel.

 

Andy