Block instruments and bells

[Pacific231G]

5 hours ago, clecklewyke said:

After helping to operate Richard Chown’s French layout at Utrecht a few years ago I was offered an invitation to operate Castle Rackrent and I’ve always regretted not taking it up.

 

i’d watched progress on C.R. ever since I saw it when it was a minimalist harbour station with a  fiddle yard concealed behind a warehouse. I later was privileged to see the whole system filling an Edinburgh church hall, with even a semicircl going round  the stage. Alas i moved from Edinburgh and never found the time or money to visit Richard’s basement. But I realise that I’ve incorporated many of his ideas on my layouts. A great, inspirational man.

 

ian

Hi Ian

Was that Allendac or Coucelle-Part at Utrecht?

 

I can remember being particularly impressed by the first Castle Rackrent when it appeared in RM in March 1975 but it took me a long time to connect it with the Richard Chown I knew many years later as a fellow member of the then SNCF Society (now the French Railways Society where he is still greatly missed by those who knew him). 

I met Richard a number of times when he was exhibiting his Proto 43.5 (S7) Courcelle-Part (the last time at Alexandra Palace in 2014) and his extensive knowledge of signalling extended to the pre Code 1885 signals of the Paris-Orleans. I only saw his far larger P43.5 Allendac a couple of times (at Telford in 2006 and Ally Pally in 2008) so I could be wrong but I don't think he actually used  a block system though the P-O station next to the vast Eiffel viaduct was fully signalled (which being France required about three actual signals!) 

 

I believe that, though the complete Castle Rackrent layout filled his large specially constructed basement, each station was portable so almost  any permutation coud be exhibited (complete with block bells?)

Edited March 28, 2020 by Pacific231G

[clecklewyke]

It was Allendac and I was tremendously impressed by the viaduct and the fact that the track was at eyelev. Clecklewyke Viaduct was a pale imitation of this theme.

[peach james]

Long Marton is run using block equipment.  
 

So, it is setup to run with just a single person as signalman (me, usually, though my helpers do take over at times...).  The boxes have both bell and visual indication of the bell code ring through- because hearing what has been rung can be difficult.  The pointers are controlled by servos, using Tam Valley 3 way drivers.  This is Mk 2, the Mk 1 version used lego 9V geared motors and clutches to drive against mechanical stops.

Keys are radio keys, because they are super smooth and easy to use.  Tea is Tetley.  Lever frame is Modratrac.  Computer Software used is Railroad & Co 5.0.  (which I wouldn't use now...)

 

James

 

[DCB]

What do you guys use as bells?

[dunwurken]

 

12 hours ago, clecklewyke said:

It was Allendac and I was tremendously impressed by the viaduct and the fact that the track was at eyelev.

It may have been at eye level for you but for a small runt like myself I found it too high but then Richard was over 6 foot.   Those of you with long memories will recall that before Castle Rackrent Richard built  a model of Kyle of Lochalsh in O gauge and at his eye level.   I was on the Glasgow Exhibition team at the time and we fielded a fair number of 'Ah canna see it' complaints.  Richard eventually sold the layout and I understand it still exists somewhere.

 

With regard to Castle Rackrent station it was at 'normal' viewing height.  Richard could operate the station standing on the floor behind the backscene and reach over the backscene to all corners however smaller folk were provided with a box to stand on so that they reach all parts of the station if required.

 

Anyway back to bells...........  It would not surprise me given the time period and Richards employment (PW / Bridge Engineer with BR) that the bell and the key tap (forgotten the correct name) was redundant railway equipment.  None of the photographs I have clearly show the bell set up so I cannot confirm.

 

Malcolm

[clecklewyke]

I too saw Kyle of Lochalsh at the Glasgow exhibition in the early 1970s. I went with my girlfriend, Katrine Lindsey, which was a big mistake. Not only was she bored by the whole thing but she was only about 5 foot if that. So Kyle of Lochalsh was a complete mystery to her. What a shame because it was a beautiful model but even I at 5‘6“ couldn’t see much of it.

 

So, whenever I have exhibited Clecklewyke or Humber Dock, which are at eyelevel, I always provided stools or boxes for those who (in Iain Rice’s inimitable words) were unencumbered by excessive height. And a periscope for wheelchair users

Edited March 29, 2020 by clecklewyke

[t-b-g]

12 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

What do you guys use as bells?

 

Buckingham has what I believe are old bicycle bells mounted on a Meccano strip (What else? this is Buckingham!), with a home wound solenoid working the striker. 

[SHMD]

Hmm, I wonder what I could make these into?

 

 

 

Kev.

 

 

[Philou]

A question if I may? I can see that signal boxes would have information from the next box on the up and the down line. What happens in the case of a branch line junction? Is it just a case of adding a third set of block instruments into the 'junction' signal box?

 

Apologies for the question, but I've never seen it mentioned.

 

Cheers and take care out there,

 

Philip

[DCB]

49 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Buckingham has what I believe are old bicycle bells mounted on a Meccano strip (What else? this is Buckingham!), with a home wound solenoid working the striker. 

Thanks  I was wondering about using a motor to swing a clapper as we have a terminus in the garden and a junction in the shed and a nearly deaf operator.

Our Advanced Starter signal (the only working semaphore on the layout,) is worked by a motor, Nothing unusual you think, but it's not geared down, the armature only revolves about 270 degrees swinging a 3 pin plug pin up and over centre to change the signal.  It makes a nice clack, nothing like snap of a solenoid. I reckon the same device would make a nice single strike bell striker.  

[newbryford]

On 27/03/2020 at 14:09, clecklewyke said:

 

 

One small point - can the bells please have variable sounds and volume so that we can be polite to neighbouring layout operators and identify which bell is ringing.

 

 

 

 

The prototype uses different bell pitches to distinguish between individual blocks. 

Especially useful at junctions.

[t-b-g]

1 minute ago, DavidCBroad said:

Thanks  I was wondering about using a motor to swing a clapper as we have a terminus in the garden and a junction in the shed and a nearly deaf operator.

Our Advanced Starter signal (the only working semaphore on the layout,) is worked by a motor, Nothing unusual you think, but it's not geared down, the armature only revolves about 270 degrees swinging a 3 pin plug pin up and over centre to change the signal.  It makes a nice clack, nothing like snap of a solenoid. I reckon the same device would make a nice single strike bell striker.  

 

We made some signal drives using cheap motors, running them at low volts and allowing them to go round only half a turn then stalling them against  a stop. They worked OK but if signals didn't  have the same amount of friction, they were fiddly to get working well. Some needed more power than others.

[The Stationmaster]

11 minutes ago, Philou said:

A question if I may? I can see that signal boxes would have information from the next box on the up and the down line. What happens in the case of a branch line junction? Is it just a case of adding a third set of block instruments into the 'junction' signal box?

 

Apologies for the question, but I've never seen it mentioned.

 

Cheers and take care out there,

 

Philip

Basically yes.  If  we talk about a double line railway there will be a double line instrument and a block bell for each other signalbox with which 'our' signalbox communicates.  Thus if it is a double track branch there will be a normal double line instrument and bell for that line as well.  If it is a quadruple track railway then you have what amount to two double lines on each side of our signalbox so that makes 4 double line instruments and 4 bells.  if there are additional lines such as Permissive Block Goods Lines they will have their own instruments and bells - so very easy to get into a multiplicity of instruments and bells hence numerous different shapes of the bell part of a block bell which give different tones so a Signalman knows which bell is being rung.  

 

Some 'boxes could have half a dozen bells  so if in doubt of which one rang the old trick was to put your finger on the bell to feel the residual vibration after it had rung,  Another trick was to put a 'slug' of chewing gum inside the bell dome to make it ring flatter and give a more distinctly different tone. (I suppose blu-tak would be used for that nowadays?).  However I doubt most experienced Signalmen with good hearing would have much difficulty experiencing between 5 different although I did come across older men whose hearing was not as good as it had once been having to engage in one or other of the little tricks I've mentioned.

[clecklewyke]

Preston number one box on Mike Norrises railway must have a dozen or so block instruments and he has arranged it so that a light remains lit on the instrument that is bein rung.. It works very well and I wonder whether it was used on the prototype?

 

(I think Tony and Terry might be right. It’s about time I stopped discussing block instruments and finished off the track I’m  supposed to be re-laying)

[DCB]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

We made some signal drives using cheap motors, running them at low volts and allowing them to go round only half a turn then stalling them against  a stop. They worked OK but if signals didn't  have the same amount of friction, they were fiddly to get working well. Some needed more power than others.

Thanks. Mine goes up over centre and doesn't need any power when the signal is up or down, only to move. It is operated by a spring loaded dpdt centre off switch sprung to the off position.

Its been ultra reliable.

I feel some experiments coming on....

[clecklewyke]

Here is a link to some photos of  the innards of some LNWR block instruments. I challenge anyone to recreate a wiring diagram from them...

 

(Thanks to Richard Hodgson for the link.)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/janfordsworld/sets/72157626781937903/

 

 

Ian

 

[t-b-g]

5 minutes ago, clecklewyke said:

Here is a link to some photos of  the innards of some LNWR block instruments. I challenge anyone to recreate a wiring diagram from them...

 

(Thanks to Richard Hodgson for the link.)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/janfordsworld/sets/72157626781937903/

 

 

Ian

 

 

There is something massively satisfying and somehow comforting about all those big chunks of brass making up the "innards". It is just how old railway stuff should be!

[Free At Last]

2 hours ago, clecklewyke said:

Here is a link to some photos of  the innards of some LNWR block instruments. I challenge anyone to recreate a wiring diagram from them...

Just sharpened my pencil and made a quick sketch...

[St Enodoc]

On 29/03/2020 at 23:36, dunwurken said:

 

It may have been at eye level for you but for a small runt like myself I found it too high but then Richard was over 6 foot.   Those of you with long memories will recall that before Castle Rackrent Richard built  a model of Kyle of Lochalsh in O gauge and at his eye level.   I was on the Glasgow Exhibition team at the time and we fielded a fair number of 'Ah canna see it' complaints.  Richard eventually sold the layout and I understand it still exists somewhere.

 

With regard to Castle Rackrent station it was at 'normal' viewing height.  Richard could operate the station standing on the floor behind the backscene and reach over the backscene to all corners however smaller folk were provided with a box to stand on so that they reach all parts of the station if required.

 

Anyway back to bells...........  It would not surprise me given the time period and Richards employment (PW / Bridge Engineer with BR) that the bell and the key tap (forgotten the correct name) was redundant railway equipment.  None of the photographs I have clearly show the bell set up so I cannot confirm.

 

Malcolm

He also built a model of the Fades Viaduct in his back yard. Even he had to use a ladder to reach up to track level on that.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, clecklewyke said:

Here is a link to some photos of  the innards of some LNWR block instruments. I challenge anyone to recreate a wiring diagram from them...

 

(Thanks to Richard Hodgson for the link.)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/janfordsworld/sets/72157626781937903/

 

 

Ian

 

Hi Ian

Too tempting as a displacement activity for the two articles I'm trying to write (I must resist!) I suspect though that the wiring of these  as Tony says satisfyingly chunky devices, is relatively simple.

 

In the three position absolute instrument I count six terminals for the commutator  four for the two needles, and three for the tapper (one of which is disconnected)   I count a a total of thirteen separate terminals on the main terminal section two of which seem to be associated with the relay that  I assumes enables a relatively weak bell signal from the next box  to give a firm ring to the bell beneath the instrument case. It's likely that one of more terminals are earth to avoid any spurious voltages within the instrument. 

Looking at the galvanometer connections I reckon we're looking at a centre earthed power supply so the train on line and line clear indications are given by a +ve and a -ve current transmitted on a single wire so a three wire connection between boxes (with each earthed to complete the three circuits   

Unfortunately some of the wires are cut so it's not clear which terminals are between components within the case and which carried external connections.  I assume a total of at least six external connections, three to the next box, a +ve and -ve battery feed and at least one earth. possibly also a separate power supply via the relay to the bell.

 

There are a number of actual block instrument wiring diagrams including some earlier NER types probably very similar to these LNWR instruments here 

http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/railways.htm

 

I'm afraid though that my main observation from the wiring inside these cases is what a horrible spaghetti factory explosion my own layout wiring is !  

[Pacific231G]

38 minutes ago, Free At Last said:

Just sharpened my pencil and made a quick sketch...

Very good draughtsmanship and I see from the foot of the diagram that you've drawn at least twenty one others so you're an amazingly quick sketcher as well

 

Which railway was this diagram from?

[t-b-g]

On 29/03/2020 at 19:02, clecklewyke said:

Preston number one box on Mike Norrises railway must have a dozen or so block instruments and he has arranged it so that a light remains lit on the instrument that is bein rung.. It works very well and I wonder whether it was used on the prototype?

 

(I think Tony and Terry might be right. It’s about time I stopped discussing block instruments and finished off the track I’m  supposed to be re-laying)

 

Buckingham had similar at Grandborough Junction, which had 4 instruments. A LED set into the front of the instrument would stay lit for several seconds after the bell for that line had been rung.

 

A wiring diagram was printed in the MRJ Article in issue 60. Basically just a LED and a Capacitor. I haven't rigged it up yet as so far, we only have one instrument working. When we get more, I will connect it again.

[Free At Last]

24 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Which railway was this diagram from?

It was a diagram from a charity shop book,  I C S Reference Library - Construction And Equipment Of Electric Tramways And Railways: Electric Signalling On Railways, just says 'Tyer Lock and Block Instrument'.

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Free At Last said:

It was a diagram from a charity shop book,  I C S Reference Library - Construction And Equipment Of Electric Tramways And Railways: Electric Signalling On Railways, just says 'Tyer Lock and Block Instrument'.

There's a book called "Railway Signalling and Communications - Installation and Maintenance", a digest of lectures given by various LNER S&T staff and published by The St Margaret's Technical Press. London, in 1940. It includes all sorts of wonderful stuff including a whole chapter on "Telegraphs and Signalling Instruments", which has several schematic diagrams of how block instruments, single line instruments and so on work.

[clecklewyke]

I’ve found my trumpet so I can blow it now. My article “block working with computers “is in issue 61 MRJ, 1993. Small beer by modern standards!

 

Ian