14XX or one flavour of Pannier Tank?

[swiftbeam]

Hello,

 

I am right on the edge of buying a small GWR steam loco in O gauge to grow my O gauge mini layout project. 

 

I am thinking of a Dapol 14xx or Pannier Tank, I have an auto coach on order, so the model should really be auto fitted (I know it's only detail and not working).

 

Question one, are there any know issues with any of Dapols 14xx or Pannier tanks (ex Lion Heart)?

Question two, what one is better, Dapol or ex Lion Heart?

 

I have been offered a 57xx in the colour I want for a good price. 

 

Question three, is the 57xx a Lion Heart model or Dapol?

Question four, is 57xx auto fitted?

Question five, why is the 14xx about £200, some panniers about £200 and the 74xx £350?

 

Sorry for the list, but hopefully you'll be able to see where I' going with these questions. I'm not fixed on what loco I end up with, I just want the best model for quality and auto fitted.

 

Many thanks for any help you can give

 

Rob.

[Simond]

The following is mostly personal opinion...

 

1 not that I’ve heard

2 don’t know, I have a Lionheart 64xx, it’s fine.  
3 Dapol I think, could be Minerva.  I have two Minerva ones, and a Vulcan kit I built 20 years back.

4 no - “The 5700s were never fitted remote control gear for working autotrains. This was left to smaller pannier locomotives that followed; the 5400 class (introduced in 1930) and the 6400 Class (introduced in 1932).”  (Wikipedia)

5 my 64xx is Lionheart, they were built to a more complex design and I suspect the 74xx is similar.

 

if you can get a 57 at the right price, maybe you should.  You can always pick up the 14xx in the future, meanwhile your 57 will have to run round the coach, which adds to the operation.  I’m sure there’s lots of prototype examples, when regular auto fitted locos had to go for overhaul, etc.  And in the future, your branch can have a pannier hauled freight service, and an auto for passengers...

 

atb

Simon

[Hal Nail]

Hi,

Just to add to what Simon has said, the ex Lionheart 64xx /74xx has a metal body which may account for the price difference. Dapol now make these after their merger and I believe they are exactly the same as the original.

 

The 57xx is available with both cab types from Dapol and Minerva. The Dapol one isnt ex Lionheart but Richard Webster was behind both.

 

The 14xx is a very fine model.

 

To summarise, I think all have been well received and to date I have not heard of any pitfalls or reliability issues so it comes down to personal choice.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Rob, I would agree with Simon and Ian.

 

I have two Dapol 57xx's and one Dapol/Lionheart 64xx. Never had any issues and they are great locos.

 

I am awaiting the sound fitted 58xx.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The 57xx were not for pushing auto trains, unless you are down The Bumble Hole. 

[fezza]

Agreed. I have one of each and all run fine. On model railways sometimes it is an advantage not to have an auto fitted loco as you then have to run round creating more operational interest. There are of course many examples of non auto fitted locos pulling auto trailers (EG Watlington branch) . Choice really depends on the lines /area you want to model. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by fezza

[GWR57xx]

Agree with all of the above, but could I ask what year(s) your layout will be sent in? GWR or BR?

Reason for asking (hope I'm not teaching Granny to suck eggs) is that the 14xx were numbered as 48xx from new up to 1946, close to nationalisation in 1948.

Also if you want to run your Autocoach in push-pull (rather than having the engine run round) don't choose the 58xx or 74xx numbers as these were not auto-fitted. Stick with 48xx and/or 64xx.

The Dapol (ex Lionheart) 64xx is pretty much all brass construction.

The Dapol / Minerva 57xx / 8750 have a lot more plastic.

All are superb models.

Still waiting for my 48xx so can't comment, but they are getting rave reviews from those who have theirs.

[Hal Nail]

33 minutes ago, fezza said:

There are of course many examples of non auto fitted locos pulling auto trailers (EG Watlington branch) .

And in at least one of the photos Ive seen, an ancient wooden trailer, not entirely unlike the model.

 

That said, mindful that underestimating space is often an issue for 7mm, an auto train could run in and out in a lot less obviously.

[swiftbeam]

Thank you very much guys for all your help.

 

My railway to be will be a very small modern fictional preserved halt type deal, set in what was a GWR area. My rule is nothing to run on the layout unless it's entirely feasible right now. I live very close to the Blaenavon railway (part time member of their modelling group) and it is amazing what has run up there, so I have some options.

 

One thing I have noticed is how bad the sound locos come across on YouTube videos of the 14xx and Panniers, even allowing for personal computer speakers in my device. The exhaust blast always seems chopped of and does not seem to be slightly drawn out when running at very slow speeds, this 'chop off' kills the illusion for me. Also the whistle is normally 'chopped off' as well, so the echo is not there, this really kills the sound.

 

So I guess now that we have established all the models are good, it may come down to what DCC sound is the best with a good realistic beat at slow speed and echo on the whistle? Don't care about the price, I want a quality believable sound, obviously I'll be getting  the biggest speaker I can to fit, even if some 'modelling' is need to get it in!

 

Thank you for your help.

[GWR57xx]

Not sure it's fair to complain about the lack of echo as the echo is not produced by the loco but by the sound waves bouncing around hillsides, etc.

The echo effect you hear would be very different depending on location. A wooded valley would absorb most of the echo whereas bare hillsides would not.

[GWR57xx]

I know there are a few DCC sound gurus on this forum who produce excellent custom sound projects.

Might be worth approaching them to see if they can do you a bespoke sound project that incorporates what you want.

[pauliebanger]

Another thing about sound projects and Panniers is make sure the one you select has both Hi and Low tone whistles incorporated which were characteristic of GWR locos (and depicted on the models).

 

Nearly forgot, these locos also had a mechanical vacuum pump operated from the motion so you should expect to hear that too, one beat per wheel revolution.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[ROSSPOP]

Oooh nice question,

 

Having owned a Lionheart Pannier tank loco..into which I hard wired a Zimo decoder and Youchoos sound file.. tis an excellent RTR 7mm offering for it`s time  ( £450 plus postage no sound)

 

 

But in my opinion the Dapol 57XX ( never autofitted) is the best value for money RTR loco ever produced by Dapol. It has more accurate detail and a fully finished chassis (and ashpan) plus a pseudo -working inside valve gear. ( £191 no sound free postage from a well known trader)  Again fitted with Zimo decoder and an updated Pannier sound from Youchoos . I did change the brake and vac pipes particularly at the back as Dapol`s effort is not as accurate as Lionheart in this one aspect.

 

 

Dapols 14XX looks equally as excellent from what I have seen.....but it will never beat the kit built version by MOK

 

 

Fitted with  Youchoos Autotank sounds including the autotrailer gong warning sound.....

 

.......BUT A VERY CLOSE RUN THING FROM Dapol....     DAMN GOOD  IMHO.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by ROSSPOP
Not enough praise for Dapols 14XX

[swiftbeam]

WOW WOW WOW !!!!!!!  

 

Those videos are AMAZING!!

That layout plan is exactly what I have in mind and the crossing is a nice touch. The sound is by far the best I've heard thus far!

 

What I mean about the whistles not echoing is simply the sound file was cut short and did not blend out. No whistle on earth gets chopped off to silence right at the end, but the sound files I had heard until now on YT all get chopped off.

[Jintyman]

I've had all the models mentioned (except the MOK 14xx) through my hands and I've found pretty much all the RTR offerings are excellent value for money.

Minerva 8750 and 57xx Panniers are a little dearer than the Dapol version, but they allow for more of the slight alterations within the class, such as tool box positions, top feed or not, footplate vacuum pipe run positions, and a lot of the other minor differences.

 

as for sound, maybe playing around with different sound files may help in achieving certain sounds you prefer.

Here is a Lionheart 74xx fitted with a Zimo MX644D and a Collett 2251 sound project from YouChoos. It has (IMO) a much richer bark, and I had a 2W 8ohm cube bass reflex speaker to hand, which I cut down to fit in the space under the chimney and re-added the small reflex tube to maintain the sound quality. A bit of a fiddle, but #I think it was worth it.

 

 

 

 

I'm busy fitting out 3 Dapol 14xx's with sounds, two are for one individual, so I am going to make the sounds slightly different in each one somehow.

 

The Dapol 14xx is, again in my opinion, one of the best RTR locos out there. The innovative decoder fitting slide out PCB is a hoot. I do adapt it a little to get a twin speaker on a 3D printed enclosure in and a decent stay alive as well.

 

Good luck with the layout.

 

Stay safe all

Jinty 

 

Sorry forgot to add a couple of pictures of the new Dapol 14xx's.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Jintyman
To add pictures

[brossard]

I agree with the above although I haven't had my hands on the new 14XX yet.  Zimo decoders are superb, mine are from Digitrains.  The only obvious difference between the Dapol and Minerva 57XX is that the Minerva doesn't have smokebox glow (I daresay the experts will point out other differences but these are not obvious to me).  This should only come on when the "fireman shovelling" function is selected.

 

John

[DCB]

The 57XX were not branch line engines until BR reclassified them as "Yellow" route locos in around 1950.  The 74XX were slightly lighter and yellow route availability so were able to use most branches, hence more being built post WW2.   BR were building red route 94XX and scrapping uncoloured route 850. 2021 panniers and Dean Goods which led to a small engine crisis circa 1950.

[fezza]

Weren't quite a few West Country branches coded blue anyway to allow for heavy summer traffic (Newquay, Kingswear, Falmouth) ? It would be interesting to know more about 57xx use on branches before 1948. I've always assumed it wasn't very common. 

[Hal Nail]

St Blazey's 57xxs worked to Fowey on china clay work in GWR days although the passenger service was a 517/14xx.

[Miss Prism]

20 minutes ago, fezza said:

It would be interesting to know more about 57xx use on branches before 1948. I've always assumed it wasn't very common. 

 

Route availability map

 

[fezza]

Very interesting that Falmouth, Newquay and Kingswear were actually red.  Minehead, Moretonhampstead, Fowey and Bodmin were blue.

 

I suppose that in practice there were so many older tank engines around in the 1930s that the newer 57xx tended to be on heavier traffic.  

 

St Ives appears uncoloured on this map, yet had heavy summer traffic hauled by yellow locos (45xx etc).  Helston and Princeton are also uncoloured but we know small prairies operated there too.  Does this represent a mistake in the printing, a later change in route classifications or the fact that local traffic managers / pw departments could issue local exemptions?

 

I suppose the answer is that unless you are modelling a specific branch line that was uncolooured or yellow (or an obviously  light formation), you can still  justify a 57xx in the 1930s for branch line use , even if it wasn't common.

Edited May 21, 2020 by fezza

[Miss Prism]

I think there were shades of grey among some of the 'uncoloured' branches like St Ives and Helston. Despite being 'yellow' engines (a latterday modernism btw from c 1920), the lightest of the small prairies were found too useful to be ignored (good on gradients, tank capacity, acceleration). Helston was considered to be a bit stronger, and the heavier 4575 engines could occasionally be seen in later years, and the 66-ton Class 22s (unquestionably blue locos) were common in the last years.

 

Before the small prairies, there were thousands of lightweight saddle and side tanks.

 

6 hours ago, fezza said:

I suppose the answer is that unless you are modelling a specific branch line that was uncolooured or yellow (or an obviously  light formation), you can still  justify a 57xx in the 1930s for branch line use , even if it wasn't common.

 

I disagree. 57xxs were kept off yellow and especially uncoloured routes. There was no shortage of alternative lightweight tank locos for such routes in the 1930s. But as DavidCB notes above, the WR shot itself in the foot somewhat when culling those lightweight tanks post-WWII, and hence the fudge from blue to  yellow for the 57xx.

 

Compare 57xx and 45xx axle weights - there's quite a difference.

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Miss Prism

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 hours ago, fezza said:

Very interesting that Falmouth, Newquay and Kingswear were actually red. 

Kingswear was actually Hatched Red so could take Kings.

 

In my own area of interest the Swan Village line was shown as Dotted Blue but in the years after it was transferred to the LMR it often saw Red engines. 

The Bumble Hole between Old Hill and Blowers Green was Dotted Red, despite being normally used by Flying Bananas, autotrains and Pannier Tanks into Withymoor Basin. It formed an alternative route between Handsworth Junction and Priestfield so saw Castles on expresses diverted due to engineering works on the line through Wednesbury.

[fezza]

On 21/05/2020 at 20:22, Miss Prism said:

 

I disagree. 57xxs were kept off yellow and especially uncoloured routes. There was no shortage of alternative lightweight tank locos for such routes in the 1930s. But as DavidCB notes above, the WR shot itself in the foot somewhat when culling those lightweight tanks post-WWII, and hence the fudge from blue to  yellow for the 57xx.

 

Compare 57xx and 45xx axle weights - there's quite a difference.

 

 

Sorry I should have been clearer - I meant that if you were modelling a non-specific or fictitious branch line you could legitimately give that branch a blue or red classification as several major real branches were indeed blue or red. That would at least allow you to 'legally' run a 57xx, even if these weren't common.

 

I'd certainly agree that if you are modelling a yellow or uncoloured route, or if you are modelling a fictitious lightly-laid branch, then you should avoid a 57xx.

 

Having said that, an excellent and well-known GWR exhibition model of Hemyock happily runs a 57xx, so each to his own really...

 

Great map link btw - I have never seen that in a book, despite having a couple of boxfuls of stuff on the GWR.