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bordercollie

LMS and LNER west of England

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I looking to purchase some LMS and LNER wagons kits for my GWR layout in Cornwall c1929.

 

There doesn't seem to much available. I was wondering if any of the pre-grouping wagons available from various sources would be appropriate. I know that the GWR got rid of  most wagons they inherited at the grouping quite quickly but I don't know what happened with the other companies.

 

Regards

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1 hour ago, bordercollie said:

I looking to purchase some LMS and LNER wagons kits for my GWR layout in Cornwall c1929.

 

There doesn't seem to much available. I was wondering if any of the pre-grouping wagons available from various sources would be appropriate. I know that the GWR got rid of  most wagons they inherited at the grouping quite quickly but I don't know what happened with the other companies.

 

Regards

 

Cambrian do a good range of early LNER and LMS wagons particularly the open merchandise types which would be the most common.

 

In 1929 pre-grouping wagons would still be present with some still in their pre-grouping liveries.

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Posted (edited)

In 1929 there would be plenty of pre-grouping wagons around, many still in their pre-grouping livery.  There are some HC Casserley photos of Inverness in 1927 showing many wagons in various pre-grouping liveries and I doubt if things will have changed that much in 2 years.

Edited to add:

Tony Atkins in "Great Western Docks and Marine" has a 1932 photo of Kingswear with an LNWR wagon still in LNWR livery

Edited by eastglosmog
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On the LMS front, very common types from the Cambrian stable include their kits C57 and C58 for the steel and wood framed opens built in the tens of thousands between 1923 and 1930, along with kit C80 for the early type of 12 ton van. Most of Cambrian's pre-grouping Southern constituent kits are for types built in the years just before grouping - the SECR round-ended open seems abnormally common in goods yard photos of the 20s. There's a bit of a gap for late pre-grouping Midland and LNWR types - the Slaters and Ratio kits are for types that by and large would be getting on for 30 years old by the late 20s, though the Slaters Midland vans - especially the longer version - were in production later and were long-lived. Look also at Mousa Models, especially the more recent printed resin kits - there's a LNWR D84 open that is very useful for your early grouping period - almost certainly the type that was still in LNWR livery at Kingswear in 1932! Plenty of oppotunities for applying your ageing and weathering skills...

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Looking in LNWR Wagons Vol 1 it seems some LNWR 10ton Diagram 84 opens were still in LNWR livery in 1938 (except the 10t symbol had been moved to bottom right from top left).  The livery looks in remarkably good order for not having been painted in 15 years! Did Earlstown carry on painting in LNWR livery long after 1923?

According to the book,  2,000 ex-LNWR Dia84's were sold to the Belgian railway (SNCB) in 1945 (complete with 10 tons of coal).  I wonder if any of them were still in recognizable LNWR livery?

There used to be a Model Wagon Co white metal kit of the Dia 84 (I've got one, though it needs a bit of attention to the running gear). Long discontinued, I believe, though maybe still obtainable on e-bay (according to the LNWR Soc, David Geen also did one).

Edited to add a bit I left off:

Compound2632, thanks for the note about Mousa Models doing a D84 - looks like it is fairly new to their range.  I may well get one instead of repairing my white metal one.   Even after the LMS flogged 2,000 of them in 1945 I am sure many of the 15,000 odd built were still in existence in my 1946/7 period.

Edited by eastglosmog
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On ‎30‎/‎07‎/‎2020 at 06:50, bordercollie said:

... I know that the GWR got rid of  most wagons they inherited at the grouping quite quickly but I don't know what happened with the other companies.

The LMS and LNER had of necessity to keep the wagon fleets inherited from their constituents in service. Builds of group standard design stock were instituted to continue the established process of replacing earlier designs reaching end of service life.

 

As already mentioned the wagon that would most often be seen were the general merchandise open types, and the LNER's usual design at that date would be a six plank, 12T capacity, 9' wb, 17'6" body length vehicle. This was very similar in general appearance to equivalent wagons operated by the GC, GN and NER, LNER constituents. No need to build a kit if this is for OO, remarkably Oxford Rail offer it RTR; the sole such example of a specific group's wooden bodied general merchandise open. Current kit from Parkside, and past producers such as ABS and 3H.

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Thanks everyone.

 

I have ordered some of the above suggestions.

 

I will need to do some further research as to an appropriate ratio of LNER/LMS to GWR wagons for the far west location of my layout.

 

Regards 

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51 minutes ago, bordercollie said:

Thanks everyone.

 

I have ordered some of the above suggestions.

 

I will need to do some further research as to an appropriate ratio of LNER/LMS to GWR wagons for the far west location of my layout.

 

Regards 

 

When I was doing the reaserch for my layout I discovered that LMS should account for practically half or more of your total fleet with the LNER in second followed by GWR then SR.

 

So out of 20 wagons you might expect a distribution of 10 LMS 7 LNER 2 GWR 1 SR.

 

Also open wagons should dominate your fleet. Most of your merchandise stock will be 1/3/5 Plank wagons with sheets and vans much less frequent than most people expect.

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If the line is a branch rather than on the main GW Line in East Cornwall you need to consider where the traffic is coming from and going to for your mix of wagons, you're best part of 100 miles from the LMS at Bristol and more from the LNER.  120 miles from the Welsh coal mines, 90 from the Somerset coal mines, that over some of the steepest banks in the UK.

A more realistic mix for 1929, in Cornwall 6 years after the grouping in a period of austerity given a 25 year wagon life would be 2 LMS, 1 LNER 2 GWR 15 pre group and 10 Private owner. Possibly half the pre group would have some LNER or LMS branding, but be pre grouping pre  LMS/ LNER wagons.   A lot of coal would be from ports to inland so fewer colliery wagons than most other lines.   LMS and LNER wagons would obviously be newer than 1923 I doubt many LMS or LNER design wagons were built pre 1926 when the General strike slashed building rates and money for repairs.  Obviously as the 1930s progressed a few more wagons were built and thousands scrapped, well broken up as many were wooden framed and the proportions of 

 10 LMS 7 LNER 2 GWR 1 SR. would be right for post WW2.  Private owner wagons were maintained privately up to WW2 so the patchwork bodgery of post WW2 PO wagons wouldn't have been tolerated.   

It's an odd subject stock ratios.    In one sense on the GWR every second loco you saw should have been a Pannier Tank and every hundredth a King . In fact on the sea wall at Teignmouth on a Summer Saturday between 8 am and 6 pm  you could see a Dozen Kings and no Pannier Tanks at all.   Or any goods wagons.

 

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I think I read somewhere once that out of every 10 non PO wagons, 1 would be an LMS open to d1666 or 1667. By that time, hordes of Midland opens would still be about too, plus the aforementioned LNER 6 plank opens. Add in some vans like the Cambrian LMS d1664 or the Parkside GWR V14/16/18 kit, and you've got a pretty good representation of early big 4 stock. Add in some LNWR, NER, and so on vans and off you go.

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7 minutes ago, WM183 said:

I think I read somewhere once that out of every 10 non PO wagons, 1 would be an LMS open to d1666 or 1667. By that time, hordes of Midland opens would still be about too, 

 

From Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1: In 1931, there were nearly 679,000 company-owned wagons. By this date, the LMS had built all 54,450 wagons to D1666 and all 8,100 wagons to D1667, a total of 62,550 or 9.2% of the total of company-owned wagons. Midland opens in service at this date would mostly be the 10 ton wagons to D302 and D663A built in the last decade before grouping - 13,250 wagons, or 2.0% of the total number of company-owned wagons. Numbers of the Midland's 19th century standard 8 ton open, D299, of which 62,000 had been built up to c. 1901, would have been in steep decline by 1930, having been replaced by the Midland 10 ton and then LMS 12 ton wagons.

 

That's only 5-plank open wagons; the pattern with 3-plank and other types was different, as the Midland and then LMS built 3-plank dropside wagons at periods when they weren't building 5-plank wagons - 1870s, 1900s, 1930s!

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