Cwmbargoed coal traffic 1972

[corneliuslundie]

I have some photos taken in 1972 (not by me) of a class 37 assembling a train of coal wagons at Cwmbargoed on the ex-RR/GWR line to Dowlais.

Where would the coal have been going? My first thought is Aberthaw, but I suspect that one or two people will be able to give a definite answer.

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

Coal was definitely coming out of Cwmbargoed in 1973 in 21ton flats (I.e. 21ton mineral wagons) and memory suggests it was going to Llanwern but it might possibly have been Uskmouth Power Station although I've an idea it could only tipple 16 tonners (someone might know that for definite).  I've an idea some Cwmbargoed coal might also have gone to Port Talbot but I can't be sure.

 

Coming down from Cwmbargoed was an education in incline working as it really was and not as it should have been done.  Hence although pinning down was properly done at the top until the only way the train would start rolling on the gradient was by the loco applying power - so all exactly as it should be up to then.  But once you got moving down the gradient after releasing the loco brake there was no way on earth the Incline Instructions could be applied because putting in the loco straight air brake simply couldn't hold a thousand tons of train.  So the technique was to let it go and it was generally reckoned that if you were doing 40mph or lower going round the reverse curves at Bedlinog you would stop at the bottom.  Don't forget the incline Instructions required the Driver to have the train fully under control all the time while descending and to be able to stop it at any time - some hope coming down from Cwmbargfoed with 1,000 tons pushing the loco.

 

Fortunately the change in gradient approaching Nelson helped and usually the train came to a stand with the minimum of braking by the loco in more or less the right place.  Looking back from the cab all you could see was the smoke from burning brake blocks on the wagons - I've got a photo to prove that from the trip I made up there (when we passed through Bedlinog at exactly 40mph coming down the bank).  Real wild west railway work and a loco working from Radyr up to Cwmbargoed would have the sand boxes filled before leaving and completely empty them before it got back, especially when the rail was greasy.

 

The only regular flow to Aberthaw PS out of the Cardiff Valleys in 1972/73 was in mgr wagons from Eirw Branch Jcn which was small coal Ryans were recovering from a tip in that area.  I know there was one attempt at running an mgr off the Rhymney side - probably from Ocean/Trelewis Drift which took place when I was on leaver - it ran away down the Big Hill and mgr trains were banned from using it after that because the Driver reported that he'd had trouble stopping the train.  I presume he didn't report where it actually stopped as nothing more was said about the fact that it ran all the way to Radyr Quarry before he could stop it - any mgr trains off the Rhymney adfter that had to run via the Rhymney Valley and Queen Street and not down the Big Hill.  goodness only knows how far an mgr could runaway coming from Cwmbargoes in those early days as the wagon handbrakes in those days were next to useless.

 

All that real railway work is now just history alas. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, as you say, definitely not MGR. The photos were taken by the late Alec  Swain and given to me years ago s he knew I was interested in the Joint line.

Jonathan

PS I had you in mind as someone who would know.

Edited August 7, 2020 by corneliuslundie
typo

[The Johnster]

The MGR flow to Aberthaw in those days was from Blaenant  in the Dulais Valley via the N & B route to run around at Jersey Marine.  It was an interesting working; I learned the road over the Vale of Glamorgan route on this job with Barry men and naturally stayed to watch the fun at Blaenant.  
 

The 47 ran around the train at Jersey Marine, which had a hump at the Swansea end on which the allocated air piped brake van was positioned.  Once the loco had coupled on the ‘Brecon’ end we released the brake on the van which rolled on to the rear wagon and was coupled on and the brake pipes connected.  We did a continuity test and were the right away Blaenant with me, the train guard, and a Jersey Marine travelling shunter riding in the van.

 

The layout at Blaenant was simple; the loading road was a loop off the N & B operated by ground frames at each end, on a gradient (can’t remember how steep now, but steep) rising towards Coelbren.  The site was on a left hand bend in heavily wooded country, the colliery being on the right hand side, so van and locomotive were not in sight of each other throughout the operation which followed!

 

The train was drawn past the top ground frame and stopped by the travelling shunter using the air brake setter in the van when it had cleared the top points.  The travelling shunter then operated the ground frame. We then waited, holding the setter open (wedged with a brake stick) until a colliery shunter called us back, the loco attempting to blow the brake off all the time.  The setter was replaced and the train rolled back down the hill, driver keeping speed in check.  As the first 3 MGRs came under the loader, the travelling shunter stopped the train with the setter, repeating this operation until the van was approaching the outlet ground frame, at which point the loco was in sight of the loader; the van being about to lose visual contact with it.

 

The driver sounded the horn to indicate that he was ready to take over, and, again with the setter held open while the loco was trying to blow the brake off, the travelling shunter operated the outlet ground frame.  This done, the setter was closed and the train dropped down the bank 3 at a time under the driver’s control by the colliery shunter’s hand signals.  This done, and the train fully loaded, he pulled the train up to his stop mark (35xMGR).  The van handbrake was now secured while the travelling shunter put the bottom ground frame back  The guard was bow supposed to walk forward and uncouple the loco but to save time the secondman did it. The loco now ran around the train, the secondman operating the top ground frame, and the guard made his way back with the tail lamp to do the brake continuity test when the loco had coupled on to the brake van, the handbrake of which was now released.  With the guard hanging on to the step of the rear MGR to drop off to put the bottom ground frame back, the driver stopped at his 35 MGR mark to wait for him, then right away Jersey Marine with the van coupled to the loco and everybody aboard the loco. 
 

A complex and intricate piece of railway work that took about an hour to carry out.  It depended very much on the skill of the travelling shunter in operating the setter, not an ideal piece of equipment for precision work, precisely 3 wagons at a time to handsignals from the NCB shunter, on a train whose weight was increasing with each 3-wagon drop down the bank, the mental connection of these two men being uncanny!

[HGT1972]

The Stationmaster is quite right - coal from the Royal Arms opencast site, which was the one supplying the disposal point at Cwmbargoed at that time, was moving to the tippler sidings at Port Talbot for BSC (often in vacuum fitted wagons) and also to East Moors in Cardiff in 1972. The disposal point was also sending out smaller consignments to local coal yards such as Rhymney - just across the moorlands but quite a distance by rail - and landsale yards at some of the South Wales collieries.

 

Hywel

[HGT1972]

And what fascinating memories too from The Stationmaster and The Johnster - just the sort of insider information that helps all us non-professionals to run better model railways! Priceless stuff and thank goodness they're so willing to share it all.

 

Hywel

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, HGT1972 said:

And what fascinating memories too from The Stationmaster and The Johnster - just the sort of insider information that helps all us non-professionals to run better model railways! Priceless stuff and thank goodness they're so willing to share it all.

 

Hywel

Lots of people would have kittens, and some modern day 'safety professionals' would have apoplexy about some of the things which were still going on in the Valleys in the early part of the 1970s.  Running a train with unfitted vehicles, and no tail lamp on them, was a nightly occurrence on part of ther Rhymney Valley in 1973 but as it was all over a falling gradient it was pretty safe even if it was not in any sort of Rule Book but it saved a lot of time shunting an intermediate siding.  

 

One Sunday one of my supervisors decided that Nantgarw coke ovens needed a real going over to clear empties - a perpetual problem - so he fixed it with the Driver & Guard that they would come back with 120 wagons on their first trip.   They did, and well over the Length Limit for everywhere in between and getting into a crowded Radyr yard - but all done nice and neatly by people who knew their jobs.

 

Yard derailments were a common feature in those days and we had our share of them at Radyr including the afternoon when a Shunter forgot to pull a pair of points.  Instead of setting back a train nearly =70 for length it went back into a road holding about the same length of empty tank cars (various) waiting eventual work at Powell Duffryn.  I heard the bang when the two met and looked out of the office window to see a Grampus about 10 feet up in the air making its way back down to earth.   Everything was blocked on the Up Relief side at Radyr junction because part of the trains was there including derailed vehicles across the junction.  

 

The Canton breakdown supervisor was not a happy bunny when I explained the situation to him as he ad no wish to come via Queen Street so he asked me to deal with the derailment blocking the Penarth branch and Relief Line - so I told him on his head be it!  Actually all went went but rather noisily because if you understand the mechanics of a derailment it can sometimes be possible to carefully reverse the process provided you have the right bits & pieces to hand and a modicum of skill luck.  The worst wagon was a Hyfit loaded with concrete sleepers which was in the air having ridden over the headstocks of the vehicles at each end of it, the wagon nearest the train engine had fortunately only partially derailed and even more fortunately the wagon on the brakevan side of it had derailed one pair of wheels, next to the Hyfit.  The only ticklish part of the process was getting the buffers off the Hyfit,  but again fortunately, they were self-contained buffers so there was no need to go under the wagon to remove the spilt pins and we could gas axe the buffer securing bolts - very carefully  (the Perway bloke who did that was a brave soul.   So the trailing buffers were cut off first then the leading buffers had the bolts part cut.  After making sure everything was still in line - more luck on our side  - I got the front of the train to draw very slowly forwards, the leading buffers broke off the Hyfit and it dropped neatly back on the road as the wagon ahead of it rerailed (with a bit of 'help').  Next job was to rerail the wagon behind it and with 'help' (various bits of old sleeper and some metal plate we borrowed  from one of the engineering depts) we hooked onto it and very carefully pulled it back on in the opposite direction to the route it had taken as it derailed - more success and we could then clear the running line and the breakldown train could arrive to deal with the tangle in the Up Yard.  

 

Alas that looked a bit too easy as there were a number of empty Grampus all derailed at one end and partly over the wagon which had been behind them. just like a lot playing cards.  But the force of the collision meant that every set of wagon buffers behind them - right back to the somewhat relocated stop block - was fully compressed.  I warned the breakdown supervisor about that but with a very unCanton like approach the gang proceeded to jack up the derailed wagons at the open end of all that lot.  At first it went well - lift and slew a little bit and and wheels were back on the road.  But they then got to the wagon which was in right up to. its axle at the open end and started on that.  It was the one that was keeping the buffers of 70+ wagons fully compressed and as it rose it ceased to hold them compressed and the whole lot shoved evrything forwards as two jacks flew out in opposite directions - they got a lot more careful after that.  All in a days work and generally the Canton breakdown guys were a really good crowd and better at handing out a cuppa than the Swansea crew although i only had one job with them.  Old Oak were a very professional bunch (and not only good for a cuppa but also the only ones I ever did crane re-railing jobs with, both on very awkward sites).  What little I saw of them - back in the days of manual jacks - Reading were also a good gang.  Worst of the lot in my experience were Bath Road and when they were doing a job using MFD jacks, especially some very unorthodox efforts at slewing a vehicle as it was being lifted, it was advisable to keep well out of the way and maintain a sharp lookout for pieces of flying timber packing going in all directions.  

 

But for some really clever simple re-railing it was hard to beat some of the NCB chaps;  I suspect they had plenty of practice so they'd got it down to a fine art.  The most unorthodox re-railing I ever saw was a loaded 100 ton stone wagon derailed one bogie being lifted back on by a very large quarry bucket loader - quick and accurate with the wagon bogies secured from swinging.  The quarry bucket loaders were also good for clearing deep snow, but a BR snow independent plough coming into the quarry reception sidings in the opposite direction lost when it met the bucket loader coming towards it. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[br2975]

Late to the party again, no thanks to building work, then two trips to Spain (business), followed by quarantine.

.

For what it's worth, here's my two pennyworth.

.

In Cornelius Lundie's photo above we have 9C86, a Radyr based diagram, which, on a typical 1971/1972 day started out at Radyr, before making its' way to Cwmbargoed thence to Barry Docks or Aberthaw and Long Dyke before returning to Radyr.

.

Depending upon the day of the week, and traffic on offer, other Radyr diagrams to service 'the top of the world'  at the time included ;

9C77  which took in Cwmbargoed, Ogilvie Colliery & Bargoed Pis,

9C79 which took in Furnace Top, Dowlais, Cwmbargoed, Windsor Colliery and Bargoed Pits,

9C81 which took in Furnace Top, Dowlais and the Caerphilly Tar Plant at Wernddu,

9C84 which took in Maerdy Colliery, Cwmbargoed and Tower Colliery,

9C94 which took in only Cwmbargoed,

.

Hywel (HGT1972) refers to the movement of "Royal Arms" wagonload coal from Cwmbargoed, for domestic purposes and for delivery at other Valleys locations.

.

The post Beeching 'slash and burn' policy employed by Stanley Raymond & Co saw smaller Valleys yards such as Ystrad Mynach and Aber Junction closed, rerquiring say a wagonload of house coal from Cwmbargoed for Rhymney travelling down the Taff Bargoed to Ystrad Mynach and then  down to Radyr, to return back up the Rhymney Valley, past Ystrad Mynach to reach Rhymney on the daily (early hours) working.

Such workings conveying domestic coal, and concessionary coal from pithead to landsale yard or local merchant,  by the single wagon were repeated throughout the valleys on a daily basis, and no doubt contributed to any losses.

.  

As for the Aberthaw MGR workings, for 1971/1972 the booked workings were;

 

6O88  14:03              Barry High Level – Stormstown 15:10 (via Cardiff Gen).

6O88  16:20              Stormstown – Aberthaw 17:50 (via Radyr Quarry)

6O88  19:00              Aberthaw – Barry High Level 19:25

6O88  20:55              Barry High Level – Ocean & Taff Merthyr 22:54 (via Cardiff Gen).

6O88  00:09 MX       Ocean & Taff Merthyr – Aberthaw 02:15 (via Radyr Quarry)

-----------------

6O89  16:30              Barry High Level – Blaenant

6O89  20:30              Blaenant – Aberthaw 23:31

6O89  21:50              Aberthaw – Barry High Level 22:15

-----------------

6O90  02:55  MX      Barry High Level – Black Lion 04:33 (via Radyr Quarry)

6O90  06:03  MX      Black Lion – Aberthaw 07:50                    

6O90  09:15  MO      Barry High Level – Blaenant

6O90  09:31  MX      Aberthaw – Blaenant

6O90  13:00              Blaenant – Aberthaw 15:10

6O90  16:20              Aberthaw – Barry High Level

-----------------

6O92  05:25  MX      Barry High Level – Blaenant

6O92  05:47  MO      Aberthaw – Blaenant

6O92  09:20              Blaenant – Aberthaw 11:20

6O92  13:45              Aberthaw – Blaenant

6O92  17:12              Blaenant – Aberthaw 19:21 (not 18/05/71-17/09/71)    

6O92  17:12              Blaenant – Aberthaw 19:46 (18/05/71-17/09/71 only)

6O92  20:50              Aberthaw – Barry High Level 21:15

-----------------

6O97  01:30  MX      Barry High Level – Ocean & Taff Merthyr 03:05 (via Cardiff Gen).

6O97  04:35  MX      Ocean & Taff Merthyr – Aberthaw 06:49 (via Radyr Quarry)

6O97  08:45  MO      Barry High Level – Grovesend 10:32

6O97  09:00  MX      Aberthaw – Grovesend 10:32

6O97  11:35              Grovesend – Aberthaw 13:12

6O97  14:42              Aberthaw – Barry High Level 15:07

.

But, we all know how 'flexible' MGR working could be, based upon demand and operational requirements.....to which end I know this plan varied from 1970/1971 and 1972/1973, and changed almost day to day.

.

Brian R

 

[The Johnster]

The train I learned the road to Blaenant with would have been 6O90. 

[corneliuslundie]

I am now a bit confused, as Brian says train 9C86 was to Aberthaw, Barry Docks or Long Dyke, whereas other have said the traffic from Cwmbargoed was not to Aberthaw but to Port Talbot or East Moors, or possibly Uskmouth. Any chance of a consensus before I make a fool of myself in print?

Jonathan

[br2975]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

I am now a bit confused, as Brian says train 9C86 was to Aberthaw, Barry Docks or Long Dyke, whereas other have said the traffic from Cwmbargoed was not to Aberthaw but to Port Talbot or East Moors, or possibly Uskmouth. Any chance of a consensus before I make a fool of myself in print?

Jonathan

 Jonathan, I think I ought to explain myself.

.

Following the reorganisation of freight working in the BR (WR) South Wales area during the late 1960s, a system known as 'Blocplan' was introduced.

The intention was to improve efficiency within the South Wales area, especially the valleys, by running mostly 'block trains' and to cut the amount of marshalling and shunting en-route.

As part of this strategy, in the Cardiff Valleys, stabling at locations such as Cae Harris, Merthyr, Rhymney and Abercynon ceased, and most diagrams were covered by Canton locos stabled only at Radyr and Aberdare (we'll forget Llantrisant as it was in a world of its' own).

Radyr diagrams were invariably 'out and back' in nature, and during 1971/1972 were allocated diagrams C75 - C99 ( C70 - C74 were Aberdare stabled duties ), mostly operated by Cl.37s, although two Radyr based control trains at least were allocated Cl.35 Hymeks.

Each 'diagram' could comprise several 'legs' and visit several locations within the day, but hauling different trains on each 'leg'.

If there was no traffic on offer, certain legs of the diagram could be 'dropped' and the loco may run DBV (Diesel and Brake Van) to the next leg.

.

In the case of 9C86 it would work from Radyr to Barry Docks during a night shift, thence work:-

Barry Docks dep. 06:20 - Cwmbargoed arr.08:46

(probably empty minerals)

Cwmbargoed dep.10:00 - Radyr arr. 12:40

(probably loaded minerals)

During the layover at Radyr Yard it is highly likely the loco allocated to 9C86 acquired a different train 

Radyr dep. 14:20 - Barry Docks arr. 15:05  or Aberthaw arr. 15:20 as required

(possibly loaded minerals for Barry Dock, or general freight, or empties for Aberthaw cement traffic - NB Aberthaw power station traffic was by now MGR, so any coal carried on this leg would only be for the cement works.)

Aberthaw or Barry Docks dep. ??:?? -  Long Dyke arr. ??:??

(most probably vans of bagged cement, or Presflos from Aberthaw, general freight from Barry)

 20:15 Long Dyke dep. 20:15 - Radyr arr. 20:45

(any traffic requiring movement from Long Dyke - Radyr e.g. steel traffic for TC Jones Ltd at Penygraig, or some empty coke hoppers returning to Radyr, for Nantgarw )

.

 

Sorry if this is confusing, perhaps another member ( Mike - The Stationmaster ?) may be able to put it more succinctly ?

.

Regards,

.

Brian

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by br2975

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks Brian. Your posts are most helpful. I was just querying the fact that others had previously given different answers, specifically saying that coal from Cwmbargoed was not going to  Aberthaw. The other question in my mind is about the train itself. Most of the wagons seem to be bauxite 16 tonners, and in at least one photo a vacuum pipe is visible. But the brake van is unfitted and there seems to be a grey wagon part way down the train. But in the sidings in one of the views there are definitely unfitted 21 or 24 tonners. Am I right in assuming that the train would have had a fitted head? Certainly useful going down from "the top of the world".

Jonathan

PS A pity about the Small Cardiff Show but inevitable.

[br2975]

53 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Thanks Brian. Your posts are most helpful. I was just querying the fact that others had previously given different answers, specifically saying that coal from Cwmbargoed was not going to  Aberthaw. The other question in my mind is about the train itself. Most of the wagons seem to be bauxite 16 tonners, and in at least one photo a vacuum pipe is visible. But the brake van is unfitted and there seems to be a grey wagon part way down the train. But in the sidings in one of the views there are definitely unfitted 21 or 24 tonners. Am I right in assuming that the train would have had a fitted head? Certainly useful going down from "the top of the world".

Jonathan

PS A pity about the Small Cardiff Show but inevitable.

 

Hello again Jonathan,

.

Yes, sadly we had to pull the Cardiff Show, and do it sooner rather than later; albeit we were dependent upon the Scout Association, whose decisions we were in total agreement with.

There's always 2022 ! - watch this space.

.

Checking my WTTs, I'm unable to find any Class 8 workings (yet) to/from Cwmbargoed ( at the time of your photo ), the WTT seems to show only Class 9, but, that wouldn't preclude the sensible option of a fitted head - useful on a route that resembles the 'Cresta Run'.

.

I'll settle down later, with a rum and coke, and peruse my notes and WTTs; is there any specific info you seek ?

.

The attached photo was previously posted to RMweb by Gareth Jones, but I've no knowledge of the original photographer......but it shows 6982 working 9C83 northwards out of Radyr, a onetime Radyr - Furnace Top / Dowlais job. The first wagon is interesting, an 'Arm' fitted with baulks for ingot mould traffic to/from Dowlais. The second wagon appears to be an 'Iron Ore Tippler' in Ingot Mould use, also a Dowlais staple.

.

The down freight, waiting to enter the yard contains a Bogie Bolster, not very common north of Radyr by this time, other than steel traffic to TC Jones (structural engineers) at Cwmparc, or (rarely) perhaps a delivery to the NCB Tredomen Works ?

.

Brian

Edited September 5, 2020 by br2975

[corneliuslundie]

Brian, I've PM'd you.

Yes, we cancelled our October show fairly early too. A great pity as it would probably have been the best even in Welshpool. Trevor Hughes had put in a loot of worked and made the most of his contacts. We even had Arun Quay booked.

Jonathan

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, br2975 said:

 

Aberthaw or Barry Docks dep. ??:?? -  Long Dyke arr. ??:??

(most probably vans of bagged cement, or Presflos from Aberthaw, general freight from Barry)

This would be I suspect the 'Aberthaw Cement' duty which was one of my link jobs.  Hymek to pick up traffic from Long Dyke, arr. Rhoose about midday, shunt Cement Works, depart 14.40, (times approximate as my memory isn't that good!), arr. Blue Anchor (Aberthaw station) 14.50 and run in to down platform road.  Run around train to pick up Aberthaw Cement traffic on the rear, draw back on to down main, and propel to Aberthaw West Ground Frame, which was housed in the old Aberthaw West Signal Box.  This gave Johnster a chance to pretend he was a signalman as the train was drawn on to the up main to shunt Aberthaw Cement Works.  Depart about 17.00 for Blue Anchor arr. 17.05, draw forward to drop back on to the traffic picked up from Rhoose, couple on, do brake continuity test and put the tail light on, lit for Porthkerry Tunnel, and right away Long Dyke about 17.50, arr about 18.40.  The traffic was worked forward to Lawrence Hill by Bath Road men with another Hymek later.  As I say these timings are rough and I would not recommend relying on my memory, but they were ball park.  

 

The train was a mixture of vanfits carrying bagged cement and presflos, both types from both Cement Works, and could load up to over 900 tons.  It was the job that I learned to respect Hymeks on, impressed with their ability to drag more than 600 tons up the very steep incline out of Aberthaw Cement Works.  They were replaced in due course by 37s; the 25s that were supposed to replace our Hymeks would have been well out of their depth with this job!  I cannot imagine why Barry Docks is mentioned; if we were booked to pick up or drop off traffic there it would have been more likely at Barry proper, and I do not recall ever doing it.  We did pick up a travelling number checker at Barry on the way down and drop him off on the way back, a bloke about my own age called Roger something.  He was a decent enough character, but was keen on a certain type of herbal cigarette of a sort that rhymes with 'point', and, especially on Thursdays and Fridays after he'd been paid, was not much use; we used to let him sleep it off in the back cab where at least we knew where he was and where he couldn't get in the way.  I would write his wagon numbers on the back of a label for him.  His tastes in music were similar to mine and we used to swap cassettes.

 

We would have to wait for the traffic to be ready at Rhoose and would go for lunch at Rhoose Liberal Club.  The refuge siding was opposite a row of houses in Torbay Terrace, and there was a young lady in one of them that was in the habit of cleaning her windows in skimpy shorts and a top that didn't cover as much as it should have when we showed up.  

Edited September 5, 2020 by The Johnster

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, br2975 said:

 Jonathan, I think I ought to explain myself.

.

Following the reorganisation of freight working in the BR (WR) South Wales area during the late 1960s, a system known as 'Blocplan' was introduced.

The intention was to improve efficiency within the South Wales area, especially the valleys, by running mostly 'block trains' and to cut the amount of marshalling and shunting en-route.

As part of this strategy, in the Cardiff Valleys, stabling at locations such as Cae Harris, Merthyr, Rhymney and Abercynon ceased, and most diagrams were covered by Canton locos stabled only at Radyr and Aberdare (we'll forget Llantrisant as it was in a world of its' own).

Radyr diagrams were invariably 'out and back' in nature, and during 1971/1972 were allocated diagrams C75 - C99 ( C70 - C74 were Aberdare stabled duties ), mostly operated by Cl.37s, although two Radyr based control trains at least were allocated Cl.35 Hymeks.

Each 'diagram' could comprise several 'legs' and visit several locations within the day, but hauling different trains on each 'leg'.

If there was no traffic on offer, certain legs of the diagram could be 'dropped' and the loco may run DBV (Diesel and Brake Van) to the next leg.

.

In the case of 9C86 it would work from Radyr to Barry Docks during a night shift, thence work:-

Barry Docks dep. 06:20 - Cwmbargoed arr.08:46

(probably empty minerals)

Cwmbargoed dep.10:00 - Radyr arr. 12:40

(probably loaded minerals)

During the layover at Radyr Yard it is highly likely the loco allocated to 9C86 acquired a different train 

Radyr dep. 14:20 - Barry Docks arr. 15:05  or Aberthaw arr. 15:20 as required

(possibly loaded minerals for Barry Dock, or general freight, or empties for Aberthaw cement traffic - NB Aberthaw power station traffic was by now MGR, so any coal carried on this leg would only be for the cement works.)

Aberthaw or Barry Docks dep. ??:?? -  Long Dyke arr. ??:??

(most probably vans of bagged cement, or Presflos from Aberthaw, general freight from Barry)

 20:15 Long Dyke dep. 20:15 - Radyr arr. 20:45

(any traffic requiring movement from Long Dyke - Radyr e.g. steel traffic for TC Jones Ltd at Penygraig, or some empty coke hoppers returning to Radyr, for Nantgarw )

.

 

Sorry if this is confusing, perhaps another member ( Mike - The Stationmaster ?) may be able to put it more succinctly ?

.

Regards,

.

Brian

 

 

 

In 1973 I can't remember if C86 was still running down to Barry during the night but i have a feeling that by then it wasn't.  In any events locos didn't remain with the same trip all day as there was rotation between trips for various reasons.  For instance we ran no loco more than 2 or possibly 3 times during a week up to Cwmbargoed if we could avoid it because after twin-tanking and fuel and servicing only at weekends the rate of brake block wear on Cwmbargoed trips would mean a loco going to Canton for brake blocks during the week.  But C86 defimnitely was still going to Long Dyke in part of the day.

 

Shame about the small show Brian but there's aways another year (we hope!!)

 

15 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Thanks Brian. Your posts are most helpful. I was just querying the fact that others had previously given different answers, specifically saying that coal from Cwmbargoed was not going to  Aberthaw. The other question in my mind is about the train itself. Most of the wagons seem to be bauxite 16 tonners, and in at least one photo a vacuum pipe is visible. But the brake van is unfitted and there seems to be a grey wagon part way down the train. But in the sidings in one of the views there are definitely unfitted 21 or 24 tonners. Am I right in assuming that the train would have had a fitted head? Certainly useful going down from "the top of the world".

Jonathan

PS A pity about the Small Cardiff Show but inevitable.

The view of Radyr men was that only a. lunatic would use the auto vacuum brake on a train coming down from Cwmbargoed.   And having done the trip down with a thousand tons behind the loco I would absolutely agree with them because it was necessary to pin down the brakes on most of the train in any case so the vacuum was useless (the trip I travelled on was I think almost entirely fully fitted).  Valleys men tended, even in the 1970s, to still be deeply suspicious of continuous brakes on heavy trains coming down the Valleys especially on really steep gradients like Cwmbargoed - which was 5 miles falling at either 1 in 40 or 1 in 42 from Cwmbargoed to Nelson.  The safest way if you had a really heavy train was follow the Incline Instructions,  pin down sufficient brakes to hold the train at the top with the loco and van brakes off, and hope you'd stop at the bottom because even with that many brakes pinned down you'd still get up to 40mph and applying the loco brake to try to hold a train that heavy would do little more than destroy its brake blocks very rapidly.

 

And of course runaways of continuous braked coal trains, various, where Drivers had thought they could getaway with using the continuous brake .  In 1973 a train finished up in a very nasty heap at N&B junction after running away coming down the valley and the loco brake, not surprisingly I think, couldn't hold it.  The leading brakevan finished up underneath 4 or 5 16 tonners in a heap that was considerably lower overall than that number of wagons would suggest and even some of its wheels were smashed off the axle.  All three traincrew were in the driving cab which well and truly collided into the SWML embankment and all of them went to hospital although none were seriously injured beyond some broken bones and a very nasty fright.  There was also the runaway MGR that year on 'the big hill' coming down to Walnout Tree Jcn and that didn't manage to stop until it got to Radyr Quarry (but HAA brakes were pretty useless anyway).

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for that. Re the Big Hill, the Rhymney had learned that lesson many years ago when a coal train couldn't stop until the best part of the way to Cardiff. Fortunately there was nothing in front of it. But the Taff Vale was not happy.

Jonathan

PS I would like to acknowledge all three who have contrIbuted to this discussion in the article I am writing around these photos for the HMRS Journal. But I don't know your names!

You can PM me if you are shy about revealing them here.

J

Edited September 6, 2020 by corneliuslundie

[br2975]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The view of Radyr men was that only a. lunatic would use the auto vacuum brake on a train coming down from Cwmbargoed.   And having done the trip down with a thousand tons behind the loco I would absolutely agree with them because it was necessary to pin down the brakes on most of the train in any case so the vacuum was useless (the trip I travelled on was I think almost entirely fully fitted).

 

To confirm Mike's comment above, 

.

The WTT allowed 9C86 the following. 

(i)... 5 mins at Penalltau SB to pin down brakes.

(ii)...10 mins at Ystrad Mynach South to pick up the brakes

(iii)...5mins at Penrhos Jcn. SB to pin down brakes

(iv)...5 mins at Taffs Well to pick up the brakes.

.

In earlier years, when running to Aberthaw, the banker was attached to 9C86, from Barry.

.

Until Monday, 14th. April, 1969 a Cl.14 job, allegedly, but that date saw the introduction of 'Blocplan Phase 2" which saw the Barry banker/trip loco become a dual braked Cl.37.

.

With the introduction of 'Blocplan Phase 2'  Barry men were apparently to work through to Cwmbargoed.

.

And from that date, Radyr stabled 16x Cl.37s and 5x Cl.08s (heady days)..

.

Regards all,

.

Brian R

Edited September 6, 2020 by br2975

[The Stationmaster]

1973 we still had 16 D68XX/Cl 37 on paper I think (I'll have to try to dig out the photo of our loco diagram board, I posted that a. long while back) but we very rarely had all of them until twin-tanking was introduced from which time we had the full allocation for almost a week .   It then slipped back until the night I threatened to cancel the Merthyr paper train and then it suddenly went back up again - seems it was influrenced by who you got out of bed in the middle of the night