Locomotive Horns - makes and variants

[Evertrainz]

I've been doing some research (if it shall be called that) on locomotive horns on the early diesels and electrics, and have been able to pin down three main horn types.

- Desilux pair:   Class 14, 16, 20 through 28;   33 through 46; 50; LMS pioneer diesels

- Westinghouse pair: Class 15, 31, 86

- Hyson Airchime: Class 17; 47; 87, 89 through modern stuff

 

- Trico Folberth raspberry horns: Class 55 Deltic and a lot of Southern region stock (73, 74, units)

 

Class 31 had the Westinghouse, but I have heard audio showing with what sounds like the Hyson airchime. 

 

Notably, even though most had the Desilux, the mounting location and air pressure made a huge difference between the same horn pairs. You can hear the slight difference between the nose-mounted 37 horn's sound (like a 40), and a roof-horn 37 (sounds like a class 20 and often squeaky). Class 47 horn is far more "spoony" than a later gen. EMU or pacer even though both have the same Hyson horns.

The Western/52s are a good example of a 'squeakin' horn. Class 25 horns sometimes had a weird sort of pitch bendy- sound (see this vs this  ). 

I'll add that all first gen. DMUs and early AC EMUs had the Desilux horns, and apparently the GWR diesel railbus as well. I can't imagine the looks at the level crossing when they were expecting a fast Warship to hurtle down, just to be met with the tiny diesel railcar with boisterous horns 

 

This does give a good idea of the majority of the fleet; but what type of horns were fitted to the rarer/less-tended-to locomotives, like the one-offs? What horns did the early AC electrics have? HS4000, Falcon, Lion? Apparently the Deltic horns were originally fitted with something other than their raspy (horrid) horns that they maintained for most of their life; any clues? 

 

Obviously a trivial topic for most modelers since this stuff is left up to the sound guys, but as someone interested in sounds as much as visuals, I am quite curious.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Evertrainz

[The Johnster]

Of major interest I'd have thought to those of us that use DCC, and so are steam whistles.  The various types and actual notes in the actual keys that the horns sounded meant that, at Canton, if you had a Western, a 47, and a 37 on shed you could, with a man in a cab of each, play 'ilkley Moor B'aht 'at', verses and choruses.

[keefer]

I'm sure I saw a programme once which said the pitch of the two horns was Eb and Bb?

 

[Evertrainz]

Unless it’s the doppler effect I’ve never heard (in footage at least) the horns sound like that in “normal” application, usually they’re a semitone or two lower. If I were to wager a guess I’d say it was any combination of D/Db, and G/Gb. But it’s all down to how the air is hooked up I believe!

[keefer]

I wish I could remember what programme it was, this bit I remember had the bloke tuning the horns - so either the manufacturer or in works somewhere.

EDIT: got round to playing the notes and, like you say, a perfect fourth between low/high.

So if they were as I thought, it would have to be Bb/Eb (although Eb/Ab sounds more like it. Bb sounds too low)

Any YouTube video will tell you what key you're in anyway 

Edited August 27, 2020 by keefer

[MidlandRed]

My recollection from the 60s/70s is of later build class 25s (D5233-99; 7500-67; 7597-7677) having markedly more tuneful and piercing sounding horns than other locos - maybe it was their location or clarity - and they always appeared to be sounded upper note first, lower second. A particular treat was a 25 double headed freight stopped at the southbound signal on the steep gradient into Handswoth Park on the Perry Barr/Soho link - and a class 25 banker arriving at the back (beyond a short tunnel under the Endwood public house and around a curve) whereupon the drivers communicated via a cacophony of tuneful horns. No doubt there was an appendix for this process. These horns certainly sounded very different from say, a class 40. 

 

I also recall the AM10 (310) units had similar sounding horns to the class 25 (but not the AM4 - 304s which had the usual muffled sounding horns in comparison). I think the 47s and 86s had similar horns to the later 25s and 310s also - presumably the spec was changed mid 60s?? 

 

Stanier steam whistles sound far less awe inspiring to me (even on large passenger locos) than say a Brit or A4 - in fact the Stanier whistle has got a certain timbre making it sound very ordinary (similar some 60s factory hooters - eg Soho Foundry)! 

Edited August 29, 2020 by MidlandRed
Wrong compass point!!

[The Johnster]

It is described as a hooter rather than a whistle.  A4s had American type chime whistles which sound, well, awesome!!!

[Evertrainz]

4 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

I also recall the AM10 (310) units had similar sounding horns to the class 25 (but not the AM4 - 304s which had the usual muffled sounding horns in comparison). I think the 47s and 86s had similar horns to the later 25s and 310s also - presumably the spec was changed mid 60s?? 

 

 

Would be interesting to know if some classes changed horns mid-life. 

[Evertrainz]

Assuming that D8568 still maintains its original horns; they were actually the Hyson Airchime pair, not Desilux as I'd originally said. It makes sense considering that the Hyson horns seemed to only have been fitted to later locos, whereas Westinghouse and Desilux had wide usage on the pilot scheme locomotives.

 

D8568: https://youtu.be/3XbJXMXurqU?t=583

 

Hyson pair for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq88Pn0P0HA

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Evertrainz

[russ p]

some horns can be tuned and also when locos were dual braked and the main reservoir pressure was increased from 110psi to 140psi alttered the sound a little 

[Evertrainz]

DP2 fitted with the same flatulent raspberry horns as the deltics: https://flic.kr/p/dHXBoY - also fitted to 73s, and lots of other SR stock: https://flic.kr/p/9W9Qs8

 

In contrast, DP1 fitted with the pleasant Desilux horns on the roof: https://www.englishelectric.org.uk/p1021202780/h181e4a16#h181e4a16 . Looking at the Desilux horns' mounting points, I can make out the shape and profile on the pair on DP1.

 

 

So what does this mean?  This means that a Class 50 horn is actually not suitable for DP2, and rather (sadly) the prototype Trico-Folberth horn would be accurate (as fitted to the production Deltics around mid-1960s). 

 

In a more cheerful turn of events, this means that a diesel's roof-mounted Desilux horn sound would be appropriate for DP1 - a Hymek's horn does have a nice ring to it  

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Evertrainz

[Phil Bullock]

On 26/08/2020 at 20:10, The Johnster said:

Of major interest I'd have thought to those of us that use DCC, and so are steam whistles.  The various types and actual notes in the actual keys that the horns sounded meant that, at Canton, if you had a Western, a 47, and a 37 on shed you could, with a man in a cab of each, play 'ilkley Moor B'aht 'at', verses and choruses.

Wircester men only needed a Hymek for the chorus! 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[russ p]

Was the blue puliman some kind of chime horn as it appears to have had three

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I'm sure this has been shared on here before. No idea how accurate the sound to picture mapping (probably not very!*) actually is, but it's a bit of fun.

 

 

* Make that not at all!

Edited August 28, 2020 by Claude_Dreyfus

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 11:18, MidlandRed said:

Stanier steam whistles sound far less awe inspiring to me (even on large passenger locos) than say a Brit or A4 - in fact the Stanier whistle has got a certain timbre making it sound very ordinary (similar some 60s factory hooters - eg Soho Foundry)! 

Apologies for hijacking the thread, but do you have any more info on Steam loco whistles?

 

This is of interest in my projects to use TTS Decoders on loco types other than those they are designated for!

 

By the way, I agree with the comment on A4 hooters!!

 

Many thanks

Paul

[MidlandRed]

On 26 August 2020 at 23:20, Evertrainz said:

Unless it’s the doppler effect I’ve never heard (in footage at least) the horns sound like that in “normal” application, usually they’re a semitone or two lower. If I were to wager a guess I’d say it was any combination of D/Db, and G/Gb. But it’s all down to how the air is hooked up I believe!

 

The original sound of the horns on the later 25s/AM10s would when sounded in the upper first is more like D upper B lower (like the first two notes of the Sooty theme tune) but in a strident, short rasping sort of sound.

 

The South Eastern class 375s gained notoriety in local press after complaints villagers were woken from slumbers by horns being sounded for at-grade footcrossings. I seem to recall these had very loud US style single note hooters originally - is this correct? The response was they had had the horns quietened but in reality I don't think they sound the (normal horns) at the foot crossings concerned any more. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by MidlandRed

[Evertrainz]

On 28/08/2020 at 04:28, russ p said:

Was the blue puliman some kind of chime horn as it appears to have had three

 

 

This is the only recording of the Blue Pullman horn I can find - it’s only a single tone played here though - at 12:10

 

Also interesting is that the Western’s high tone at 9:46 sounds different from it’s more recognized “squeal” tone - maybe owing to the difference between air reservoir pressures upon dual braking like you say?

 

However, overall it seems that the drivers were not afraid to give some nice, long tones in this recording. I wonder if the drivers were having so much fun with the horns that lineside houses and station passengers got annoyed. Perhaps leading to some rule that causes drivers to give the feeblest of tones, even today?

Edited August 29, 2020 by Evertrainz

[Evertrainz]

RE: Blue pullman - Russ this does certainly sound a bit like an American Chime horn on the low tone - probably not too far off in terms of application of the Class 90/91 horns?  

 

 

5 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 

The original sound of the horns on the later 25s/AM10s would when sounded in the upper first is more like D upper B lower (like the first two notes of the Sooty theme tune) but in a strident, short rasping sort of sound.

 

I haven't heard much of the 310 horns but at the same time I haven't started looking hard yet. 

 

Raspy does seem like the right word  I've heard Black 5s bark before, but this is the first time I've heard a diesel bark! 

 

[MidlandRed]

10 minutes ago, Evertrainz said:

I haven't heard much of the 310 horns but at the same time I haven't started looking hard yet. 

 

Raspy does seem like the right word  I've heard Black 5s bark before, but this is the first time I've heard a diesel bark! 

 

 

That is the class 25 horn sound I remember (but without the lower tone stuck on) - notes are Gb upper, Eb lower for info!! 

[Evertrainz]

40 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

 

That is the class 25 horn sound I remember (but without the lower tone stuck on) - notes are Gb upper, Eb lower for info!! 

 

This is a refreshing clip because I believe it shows the Deslux horns in their "true" pitch - most other clips (which I will probably post at some pt or another in this thread  for nobody in particular) show them each to be a semitone lower. I have looked at photos of "rescued" desilux standard horns and it looks like the trumpet is fitted to the mounting base as a screw with a thread, fitting into the hex nut. Tweaking this will also allow for variations in pitch. 

 

 

As for EMUs: I have been scanning a long 30 min Youtube clip to pinpoint some horns.

 

Class 304: 

 

 

Class 308:

 

 

 

Class 504 (sounds a bit like one of the squeaky Class 20 horns):

 

 

 

 

 

 

And as far as I've gotten for the 'roarers':

AL1 (the E3003 clip has a weird high pitch for the low tone, possibly low air pressure): 

 

 

 

AL5: 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Evertrainz

[daveyb]

After a brief internet search I couldn't find anything about the Hyson company (or the Desilux of London company).  Were they a licensee of the Airchime name from the Nathan company, and its predecessors, in the US and Canada? 

[D826]

According to Brian Reed in Diesel Hydraulics of the Western Region, (David and Charles, pub 1974), the Desilux horns were made by an Italian chap called Mr Desidero, in premises off the Tottenham Court Road.

 

I'd like to sign off with the lovely two tone hoot I can hear in my minds ear as they rounded the canted curve at the Langstone Rock/left Dawlish Station/emerged from Kennaway tunnel - but 'Best Regards' will have to do !

 

25s on the locals, and local freight transfers to Riverside did sound different, and while on the subject of sound  the Peaks made the Rails sing at the curve at Langstone Rock long before you saw them round the curve. The modern crop of units simply do not have anything like the same audible presence.

 

Best Regards

 

Matt W

[Phil Mc]

I know of a bloke that’s got more than a passing interest in railways, who has a horn from a Peak (can’t remember which number!) mounted under the bonnet of his VW van.

Not quite the noise you expect to hear when waiting in a traffic jam !!! 

 

cheers,

Phil.

[russ p]

Didn't the GW railcars have desilux horns? Some of those had about four horns sticking out of the front 

[Evertrainz]

The desilux horns were extremely loud and I believe the biggest of all the horns in terms of overall size. At 45 and 35 cm tall (adjustable) and 15 cm bell diameters.

 

Westinghouse were much smaller and had visually smaller bell diameters. Hyson (which is/was a UK Nathan licensee) had bigger bell diameters but were much shorter in length (utilizing a different airvalve or something).

 

BR likely found the original desilux horns too loud and had to make the switch to different types. Quite surely you can hear out the difference between a Class 20 or 37 from a Pacer or 313 even today, just by volume!