shunting in station goods yards in 1950s and 60s

[geoffers]

I have looked in various sources but cannot find a definitive answer. I have a small goods yard in a wayside station on the OO layout. A Bachmann 3F 0-6-0 has been fitted with a Zimo decoder and stay- alive capacitor in order to run very slowly. For shunting within the station limits and in the goods yard what is the likely maximum number of goods wagons, loaded and unloaded, that might be pushed or pulled? Common sense says to me that no more than six particularly while pushing due to derailment possibilities. Photos seem to bear this out. Was there any defined limit though? Loco power must be a factor too. Thanks in anticipation.

[Wheatley]

As many as was necessary I would have thought. We think of 'pick up goods' trains as being short formations pottering about with a few wagons, some were but a lot weren't.

 

Where lay by sidings were provided instead of loops the whole train would be backed in, the limit was the length of the loop not an arbitray number of wagons, so in theory the same applies in a goods yard.

 

However, in a yard, the longer the rake of wagons the harder it is to see the shunter's / guard's handsignals because he's further away. So there is a practical limit, but it would vary depending on the location. 

[Grovenor]

I used to wath the pick up goods at my local station,, the deal was to drop the brake van in an empty siding, collect wagons to be taken away, and drop them on the van, then distribute what was to be left to the various sidings, this was generally done by giving each wagon or group of wagons a kick and letting them run into the sidings on their momentum, much buffer clashing and bouncing around when they hit the wagons already there. Once all the wagons were kicked off the rest of the train backed onto the pickups and van and prepared for departure, job done. Unfortunately not modellable in small scales as you can't get the momentum. The shunting was done from the up platform across the down line into the yard on the downside in between the passenger trains. Sometimes they had to stop while a pssemger passed, sometimes they managed the job without interruption.

[The Johnster]

Another thing to consider is that at most wayside stations and some of the smaller branch termini there would be no shunter available and the guard did all the work by handsignalling the loco.  So, you must take into account the sightline between him and the loco and allow time for him to walk around the place for the next operation; coupling, uncoupling, isolating vacuum brakes, throwing turnouts.  Any movement propelling in to roads where men may be working on vehicles, such as coal roads or mileage sidings, was undertaken very slowly and with extreme caution, and into goods shed roads where the men working inside out of the driver's sight, with very extreme caution.  Where there are two or more men on the ground, handsignals can be relayed from positions out of line of sight from the loco.  If the driver can't see anyone, he stays put until he's told not to by the guard or yard supervisor in charge, whose instructions and handsignals he must obey, having achieved an understanding between them about how the operation is to be carried out!  Shunting is dangerous enough even when everyone knows what they are doing.  Drivers are only responsible for locomotives.

 

So, most goods yard shunting took place at walking pace or less.  If there are enough people on the ground, you can bang them about all over the place marshalling yard style, but if it's just the guard on his ownsome...

 

There is no limit to the length of the rafts shunted, at least within the confines of the station limit clearance overlap and the limit of shunt, but the capacity of the yard is relevant.  Not all wagons on the pickup are necessarily destined for this yard and the train may well convey wagons that are not  delivered here at all but may still be involved in the shunting movements if there is no refuge siding or other convenient place to leave them out of the way while the shunting takes place.  A main line pick up might be loaded to 60 wagons but only half a dozen are involved in the shunting at this particular station.  A passenger waiting for his train and observing the fun might see the same vehicles passing back and forth in front of his seat a dozen or more times while the work is in progress.

[Grovenor]

Quote

So, most goods yard shunting took place at walking pace or less.  If there are enough people on the ground, you can bang them about all over the place marshalling yard style, but if it's just the guard on his ownsome...

The one T talked about above, 1950s was just the guard, and they just kicked off the wagons and let them run into the sidings, the buffers meeting could be heard from our house 4 streets waay. And most of this was the coal sidings. The coal men took themselves off into their huts while the shunting went on. I'm not sure that the goods shed was actually in use but we did get the odd van of bananas that was left outside the shed on the shed road, I assume they were careful with that but although I saw the vans I never actually caught one arriving or departing..

[geoffers]

Thank you all for your answers. Gives me a much better idea. I cannot get my goods guards to move but, who knows, one day perhaps so the loco has to ferret around the yard. Good fun though.

[LMS2968]

And wagons don't often derail on the big railway, even when being propelled. As stated above, setting back into a lay-by siding was almost always a propelling move, and this could involve sixty wagons, occasional more. At Curry Rivel Jct (GWR) in 1923, 68 wagons were propelled though the junction quite happily. It was the collision after being drawn out and heading wrong road along the main which caused the accident . . .

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, geoffers said:

I cannot get my goods guards to move

BR had this problems as well...  Speed of shunting in goods yards was dependent also on the layout of the yard; if the turnouts were close together the guard could divide the raft into cuts for each road, stand close to the points, and, with a repeated sequence of calling the loco on and stopping it, could split the cuts into each road, but skill and confidence were required and the practice was not encouraged as it sometimes led to damage to items in the vehilces.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

BR had this problems as well...  Speed of shunting in goods yards was dependent also on the layout of the yard; if the turnouts were close together the guard could divide the raft into cuts for each road, stand close to the points, and, with a repeated sequence of calling the loco on and stopping it, could split the cuts into each road, but skill and confidence were required and the practice was not encouraged as it sometimes led to damage to items in the vehilces.

But don't forget that only experienced men were supposed to carry out double shunting and of course loose (and therefore double) shunting was not permitted in goods yards unless there was second man available on the ground to controL the wagon brakes.  Only an idiot would loose shunt a wagon in a goods yard - not so much because of concern about damage to wagon contents (they were marked 'Not to Be Loose Shunted' in any case) but because of the very likely risk of severely injuring or killing somebody (which did sometimes happen alas).   And you need a fair bit of impetus to get the cuts separated when double shunting - hence the bit about experienced men because the wagons are running and there's not much time to get points over between the cuts. 

 

AIt was aways a pleasure to watch a really good pairing of Head Shunter and Under Shunter double shunting but it could get a bit hairy at times even with experts on the job and derailments were not unknown as well as occasional hefty collisoins between a cut and the wagons already in a road because the Under Shunter couldn't always chase them to get brakes down. 

[bécasse]

I remember watching the ex-LNWR yard at Rickmansworth Church Street being shunted by a "Jinty" in 1960. It was a substantial train of mainly coal wagons with a few other open wagons (probably building materials) and vans. What is still impressed in my memory today, 60 years later, is how fast the shunting was. There must have been at least two men on the ground, perhaps, three, as there was a lot of fly-shunting - and subsequent noise as wagons buffered up none too gently. It was mid-morning so most, if not all, of the coal men were away on their delivery rounds, they certainly wouldn't have wanted to be around while the shunting was taking place. A lot of these pick-up goods workings were bonus turns by this period and the train crews certainly didn't hang around doing things gently.

[The Johnster]

You’re telling me!  Making up a train at Swansea High St Goods was plain terrifying, as vans and wagons appeared silently around the corner of the NCL shed heading who knew where; the shunters here were on top of their game but you had to keep your eyes open and your wits about you; some of this stuff was for your train!

 

‘Hefty’ marshalling yard collisions were common, especially at STJ.  The mess cabin in the admin block was, as you will recall, well placed to hear the bangs and look up to see a cloud of dust where a cut had run into traffic on one of the down side sorting roads.  I don't recall actual derailments here though; that was a Margam speciality as were a few other practices not to be encouraged!

 

It was a great spectator sport with a good team on the ground and an almost psychic connection to the driver.  One of my pleasures was to ‘walk’ a train back  into a siding, maybe 60 SLU from the loco, controlling the combination of driver and 2 and a half thousand plus hp with minute movements of my arm and hand.  You felt like a god!

Edited September 3, 2020 by The Johnster

[The Stationmaster]

14 minutes ago, bécasse said:

I remember watching the ex-LNWR yard at Rickmansworth Church Street being shunted by a "Jinty" in 1960. It was a substantial train of mainly coal wagons with a few other open wagons (probably building materials) and vans. What is still impressed in my memory today, 60 years later, is how fast the shunting was. There must have been at least two men on the ground, perhaps, three, as there was a lot of fly-shunting - and subsequent noise as wagons buffered up none too gently. It was mid-morning so most, if not all, of the coal men were away on their delivery rounds, they certainly wouldn't have wanted to be around while the shunting was taking place. A lot of these pick-up goods workings were bonus turns by this period and the train crews certainly didn't hang around doing things gently.

Most freight shunting was fast if the manpower was available and teh wagons could be loose shunted. Spending ime shunting was a waste of time in the cabin (or the pub if the place was not under watchful eye) or getting home early of a nice daytime turn. 

12 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

You’re telling me!  Making up a train at Swansea High St Goods was plain terrifying, as vans and wagons appeared silently around the corner of the NCL shed heading who knew where; the shunters here were on top of their game but you had to keep your eyes open and your wits about you; some of this stuff was for your train!

 

Hefty marshalling yard collisions were common, especially at STJ where there smaller humps and no retarders.  The mess cabin in the admin block was, as you will recall, well placed to hear the bangs and look up to see a cloud of dust where a cut had run into traffic on one of the down side sorting roads.  I don't recall actual derailments here though; that was a Margam speciality!

Hafod Yard was pretty safe when it came to shunting and i had a good idea what went on there as I lodged with the Hafod Yard Checker when I was at Swansea High St so I didn't bother to go up there - not that I had the time as I was doing two jobs anyway plus near continuous o On Call.

[The Johnster]

Hafod was fine, not that I had much to do with it, and High St was scary rather than unsafe; as I say, you needed to keep your wits about you.  We had a turn in my link at Canton which was an interesting one; relieve Tunnel men with a Hymek on a down Margam class 7 at Cardiff Central, run down over the Vale, lovely on a summer afternoon, couple off at Margam Reception, light engine Swansea HS goods to await traffic from Hafod for an up class 6 NCL goods remarshalled at Long Dyke, which was busy with arrivals at that time of the evening and very rarely ready to accept us; we were usually relieved on the Up Relief at Canton as the goods road had to be kept clear for the up fish to shunt.

 

A single manned job, so you got a brake van over the Vale in daylight, an acting secondman run at speed, and some proper shunting of your own to do; I loved it!
 

As the shunters at High St Goods were busy  dealing with whatever the Hafod Pilot had brought down the bank, including my traffic, I did the number checking and made up the train myself, leaving connecting the bags til last, when the gravity/fly round the blind corner stuff had finished and the pilot had gone back up the top to Hafod where it couldn’t throw stuff at me while I was in between, which I wouldn’t do until my loco was coupled on!  Driver kept an eye on my progress back down the train to be ready for the brake continuity test.  
 

This train usually loaded to 40 or more vans and some opens, a proper old school vacuum fitted goods train.  We would usually be held at Briton Ferry for the aforementioned up fish off the Swansea District, and followed it up at our 45mph.  The Hymek was replaced in due course by a 37, but I’d gone up a link by then and no longer worked the turn regularly.    

Edited September 3, 2020 by The Johnster

[geoffers]

great stuff guys......