British Railways PMV cycle vans

[Neil]

I've just been reacquainting myself with the rather lovely BTF film Cyclists Special. Early on they describe how the need to transport lots of bikes safely was accomplished. The commentary says 'just take some of the cycle vans from the runs to the continental ports and put them in those'. The film shows a rake of PMVs in crimson with the cycle stencil familiar from the Bachmann model but intriguingly this screen grab shows the chalk marking 'via Calais'.

 

 

Did these vans reach continental rails?

 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Neil

[jim.snowdon]

No, but its previous contents probably did. That chalkmark is on the inside of the door so would have been a loading instruction for platform staff.

 

Jim 

[Wickham Green too]

There were fourteen Southern PMVs converted for cycle traffic in 1951 ( Chosen at random from the existing fleet though B.R. were still building the things ! ) - they don't seem to have gained holding-down lugs for ferry use so wouldn't have worked through to le continong.

There WERE two similar - non cycle-fitted - vans allocated to Continental Traffic by this time but I've never seen any evidence that they ever ventured beyond Dover ( unlike the three well-known Night Ferry brakes ).

[jonhall]

I think they could conceivably travelled on the ferry to Calais, but not ventured further on the French network.  'Ferry fittings' were no such thing, they were standard UIC fittings, but we only saw them on 'ferry' wagons. On the ships the wagons seem to have mostly been chained down over the buffers

 

Jon

[Wickham Green too]

The three Night Ferry brakes and the two Continental Traffic vans certainly had tying-down lugs.

[jim.snowdon]

21 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

The three Night Ferry brakes and the two Continental Traffic vans certainly had tying-down lugs.

And they were the only ones so fitted. If the "via Calais" chalking had been on the outside of the van, which would have been given away by its being on or near horizontal planking, it might have been an interesting point. With it being on the inside of the door, its purpose is simply to tell staff where to load parcel/mail traffic destined for Europe via Calais. The traffic would have been transhipped at Dover or Folkstone for separate loading onto the ferry, and then transhipped on the French side for further transport to wherever. Using the term "via Calais" differentiates it from domestic traffic travelling on the same train for Dover/Folkestone.

 

Jim

[hmrspaul]

On 09/09/2020 at 23:32, Wickham Green too said:

The three Night Ferry brakes and the two Continental Traffic vans certainly had tying-down lugs.

Such as https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmv/e1daac274

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

15 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

And they were the only ones so fitted. If the "via Calais" chalking had been on the outside of the van, which would have been given away by its being on or near horizontal planking, it might have been an interesting point. With it being on the inside of the door, its purpose is simply to tell staff where to load parcel/mail traffic destined for Europe via Calais. The traffic would have been transhipped at Dover or Folkstone for separate loading onto the ferry, and then transhipped on the French side for further transport to wherever. Using the term "via Calais" differentiates it from domestic traffic travelling on the same train for Dover/Folkestone.

 

Jim

There is also the small matter of there being no way of handling such vehicles at Calais, the WW1 train-ferry having been abandoned after WW1.

[Nearholmer]

On 09/09/2020 at 21:51, jonhall said:

Ferry fittings' were no such thing, they were standard UIC fittings, but we only saw them on 'ferry' wagons.

I’m very deeply sceptical about that.

 

The fittings, and the anchor symbol on the vehicle to show that is useable on a ferry, are certainly defined by a UIC standard, but by no means all vehicles compliant in other respects to UIC standards were fitted or marked for use on ferries, most of ‘em weren’t and probably (although I’m less confident here) still aren’t.

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Such as https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmv/e1daac274

 

 

Paul

Those photos of 1318 are the only reason I know it had tying-down lugs  -  I can only assume that 1215 had them too.

I've never seen any evidence that these vans ever ran in the Night Ferry - but that doesn't mean they didn't !

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m very deeply sceptical about that.

 

The fittings, and the anchor symbol on the vehicle to show that is useable on a ferry, are certainly defined by a UIC standard, but by no means all vehicles compliant in other respects to UIC standards were fitted or marked for use on ferries, most of ‘em weren’t and probably (although I’m less confident here) still aren’t.

 

 

The Southern Railway converted / built 150 Goods Vehicles for ferry traffic and NONE of these had tying-down lugs .................. though British Railways' copy of the 21T Open did.

 

I guess the Southern fitted tying-down lugs to the passenger-rated vehicles because of their extra length .......... they had eight lugs but no more buffers than the goods wagons.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Wickham Green too
correction

[jonhall]

42 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m very deeply sceptical about that.

 

The fittings, and the anchor symbol on the vehicle to show that is useable on a ferry, are certainly defined by a UIC standard, but by no means all vehicles compliant in other respects to UIC standards were fitted or marked for use on ferries, most of ‘em weren’t and probably (although I’m less confident here) still aren’t.

 

 

 

I think we might be at crossed purposes - the 'ramshorns' fittings, which are colloquially known as 'ferry fittings' by British enthusiasts, appear on tens (probably hundreds) of thousands of continental wagons that will never go on a ferry due to loading gauge - like this one which happens to be coupled between two 'ferry' wagons at Bochum museum

 

 

The average British enthusiast knows them as 'ferry fittings' because they only saw them on 'ferry vans'.

 

Jon

[jonhall]

2 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

The Southern Railway converted / built 1500 Goods Vehicles for ferry traffic and NONE of these had tying-down lugs .................. though British Railways' copy of the 21T Open did.

 

Yes, I think the fitting type specification was developed later than those vans were built - I'm reasonably confident these are actually for hauling wagons about by rope/capstan or horse, which is a much better idea than using the W-irons - as evidenced by the number of wagons with twisted W irons

 

Jon

[Wickham Green too]

1 minute ago, jonhall said:

 

I think we might be at crossed purposes - the 'ramshorns' fittings, which are colloquially known as 'ferry fittings' by British enthusiasts, appear on tens (probably hundreds) of thousands of continental wagons that will never go on a ferry due to loading gauge - like this one which happens to be coupled between two 'ferry' wagons at Bochum museum

 

The average British enthusiast knows them as 'ferry fittings' because they only saw them on 'ferry vans'.

 

Jon

Don't forget there were / are ferries elsewhere in Europe too - not just to poor old loading-gauge restricted UK!

[Wickham Green too]

2 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

Yes, I think the fitting type specification was developed later than those vans were built - I'm reasonably confident these are actually for hauling wagons about by rope/capstan or horse, which is a much better idea than using the W-irons - as evidenced by the number of wagons with twisted W irons

 

Jon

Yes, there is a difference between the rams-horn-type 'Horse Hook' and the tying-down lug as shown on https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmv/h1DAAC274#h11b91028.

[Nearholmer]

50 minutes ago, jonhall said:

the 'ramshorns' fittings, which are colloquially known as 'ferry fittings' by British enthusiasts

Well, I live and learn. I’ve never heard those rams-horn things called ‘ferry fittings’.

The fittings I’m on about are lugs to which hooks/shackles are fitted to hold the vehicle in place on deck, and they are usually fitted to the sole-bar low down and angled slightly.
 

Ive got a feeling the rams horns wouldn’t take the forces involved.
 

 

I’m interested in what WG says about SR wagons having no lugs, because the open ferry wagons that I used to see on BR(S) had them, and I thought at least some of those had been built by the SR, the overall design certainly pre-dated nationalisation. Maybe they were retro-fitted with them.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Getting back to the bike vans: were they intended for cycle tourists, or were they used to export Hundreds of Raleigh’s?

[jonhall]

Interestingly this film,  shows the wagons being chained down over the buffers, rather than using any hooks or hoops - which is why I've always believed that ferry fittings was a bit of a red herring, however with a bit of thought, I suppose we are talking about an operation that spanned 70-odd years, and that the earlier vans may not have had tie down hoops, but later ones did.

 

 

Jon

[keefer]

57 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Getting back to the bike vans: were they intended for cycle tourists, or were they used to export Hundreds of Raleigh’s?

I'd have thought that, like today, it'd be more economical & practical to ship the bikes 'flat-pack'. Generally assembled but with handlebars turned 90⁰, pedals removed etc (possibly with a basic cardboard 'cover'), awaiting final assembly & tweaking once in the shop etc.

Maybe even having to connect the rod brakes (remember them) once the handlebars were in the right position.

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, keefer said:

I'd have thought that, like today, it'd be more economical & practical to ship the bikes 'flat-pack'. Generally assembled but with handlebars turned 90⁰, pedals removed etc (possibly with a basic cardboard 'cover'), awaiting final assembly & tweaking once in the shop etc.

Maybe even having to connect the rod brakes (remember them) once the handlebars were in the right position.

These would have been for the 'Cyclist Touring Club' for their various sorties abroad. Confusingly, the vans were also used for a domestic flow of bikes from Ashford to London as well. Raleigh did send cycles by rail, using modified B-type containers with rails to hang new bikes.

[Wickham Green too]

Of course there were other ways of carrying bikes by train ............... I remember seeing the returning London to Brighton operation once : one 4SUB unit for the cyclists and a second one stuffed full of bikes ( I trust they took the seat cushions out ).