BR Class 08s, circa 1957

[seaber]

Afternoon all, 

 

I am looking for prototypical numbers for a couple of 08s and thought there no better place to ask than this.

 

Specifically they are 08s carrying the BR black livery, for a layout to be set in circa 1957. 

 

A few specific details of both diesels are:
Vacuum Exhauster Cabinets (as I belive the boxes nearest the bonnet are called) are present on both sides of the locomotives. 

The rear cab lighting conduits are the newer, straighter setup (ie no diagonal wires). 

No 'extra cabinet' present on the LHS of the locomotives near the fuel tank as seen on some locos. 

The grab rails are the older horizontal style, rather than the newer vertical ones. 

 

So, basically the above, with another box present on the right hand side and the rear cab light conduits shaped as below. 

 

I've had a look at a few sources such as:

1.

 

2.

 

and the following PDF:

3.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.railway-centre.com/uploads/7/2/2/3/7223531/class_08-13_fleet_list.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwijvvaix9fsAhXSa8AKHV-iA4IQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1xCaAK6jPexIrfUqi8fTRd

 

 

The spreadsheet in source 2 suggests mid-56 was the end of 08s being painted in the black livery, but the PDF in source 3 says there were more more up to 13336 (Feb '57). Would anyone know which date, if either, is correct? 

Source 3 also says locos initially black were painted green upon overhaul, I think it's unlikely any were painted green by the time I'm looking at, but again if anyone knows better it'd be great to know. 

 

From my understanding of source 1, engines 08001 (D3004) to 08176 (D3244) had Vaccuum Exhauster Cabinets fitted to both sides of the running board and were available during/by 1957. Source 2 suggests partway through 1956 the change from two 'VEC' boxes to one was simultaneous with the introduction of vertical grab rails - I think this means 08001 (D3004) to 08176 (D3244) is the limit for both the boxes and horizontal handrails. 

 

For the lamps on the cab rear, source 2 suggests in mid-55 the lighting conduits changed from a diagonal route to the top light to a more simple T junction and straight up, but has no exact date/Loco numbers where this was changed are present, any information about when this happened would be great. 

 

I'm still unsure what that rear box does to be honest, and haven't been able to find any information about which locos they were built with. It can be seen next to the fuel tank in the image below. 

 

Any help finding out more would be lovely, thanks all! 

[Pannier Tank]

40 minutes ago, seaber said:

I'm still unsure what that rear box does to be honest, and haven't been able to find any information about which locos they were built with.

 

The Rear Cabinet was added during Dual Brake Conversions.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Pannier Tank

[bécasse]

I produced "source 2" and went to a lot of trouble to get it as correct as possible. Although it wasn't always possible to check precisely when features changed, any one batch was usually identical and where it wasn't I normally assumed that any locos built in a particular week would have been the same. The locos that had vertical/diagonal/vertical lighting conduits on the back of the cab were indicated as 4\ in the spreadsheet, those (later ones) with straight vertical/horizontal/vertical conduits by a plain 4. The spreadsheet was specifically intended to help me identify which locos had which features (and colour, etc, schemes when new). Some locos would still have been painted black at their first overhaul but it is impossible (I tried!) to be certain which they were, some would also have been repainted plain green.

[seaber]

20 hours ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

The Rear Cabinet was added during Dual Brake Conversions.

 

Thanks, that thread is really interesting and helpful, the period I'm looking at is way before these boxes were introduced if I've ready that correctly, so I don't need to worry about them. 

 

20 hours ago, bécasse said:

I produced "source 2" and went to a lot of trouble to get it as correct as possible. Although it wasn't always possible to check precisely when features changed, any one batch was usually identical and where it wasn't I normally assumed that any locos built in a particular week would have been the same. The locos that had vertical/diagonal/vertical lighting conduits on the back of the cab were indicated as 4\ in the spreadsheet, those (later ones) with straight vertical/horizontal/vertical conduits by a plain 4. The spreadsheet was specifically intended to help me identify which locos had which features (and colour, etc, schemes when new). Some locos would still have been painted black at their first overhaul but it is impossible (I tried!) to be certain which they were, some would also have been repainted plain green.

 

This is another great resource, thanks for producing it. I didn't notice the 4 or 4/ note, that's really helpful. Could I check that the 'h/s' examples, rather than 'h/s+v/s' are what I am after. 

 

It looks like my appropriate number range is 13167-13244. Of those nos 13167-13216 were built in Derby whilst 13217-13244 were built in Darlington.

 

I believe Darlington left their 08 side rods unpainted, whereas Derby painted them red, and Darlington varnished the wooden doors on the 08s they built. Is it clear if these would have been a wood-brown colour or black like the loco body? I think those are the only major differences between the two. 

 

[bécasse]

I can confirm that all examples with wooden cab droplight and(or) diagonal lighting conduits on the cab rear had bodyside panels with hinged straps (h/s) but without vertical grab handles (v/h) - so my black Bachmann specimen is unquestionably wrong in this respect, it shouldn't have the vertical grab handles.

 

Certainly some shunters had unpainted coupling rods and varnished, rather than painted, cab doors and droplight. These may well have been only the Darlington built early-era ones but it is an issue which is difficult to check rigorously using contemporary black and white photographs and therefore I largely stayed quiet on the subject, particularly in respect of the varnished droplights. I did give comprehensive links to the photographic collections which I used, some of which offered surprisingly comprehensive coverage of early locos, and I suggest you might find some research among them useful. The varnished cab doors and droplights would indeed have been a wood-brown colour weathering over time to wood-grey.

[The Johnster]

On 28/10/2020 at 16:09, Pannier Tank said:

 

The Rear Cabinet was added during Dual Brake Conversions.

Scanned that as dual brake coronavirus; circuit break lockdown is getting to me!

[Alex TM]

Hi seaber,

 

In terms of livery I seem to remember reading that some works were turning them out in black while others had moved onto green.  Somewhere I have the relevant edition of MLI; I'll have a look, and see if it gives the last batches that were black.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Pannier Tank]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Scanned that as dual brake coronavirus; circuit break lockdown is getting to me!

 

I've noticed the same on more than one occasion and we are not in lockdown here (yet)

[Alex TM]

22 hours ago, Alex TM said:

Hi seaber,

 

In terms of livery I seem to remember reading that some works were turning them out in black while others had moved onto green.  Somewhere I have the relevant edition of MLI; I'll have a look, and see if it gives the last batches that were black.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Hi again,

 

I found the magazine but, on a quick look through, don't see the remark I thought was there.  There are, though, a number of colour images of 08s in plain green or black with 1948 series numbers.  If they're of use I'm happy to note them and post here.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[seaber]

On 29/10/2020 at 14:48, bécasse said:

I can confirm that all examples with wooden cab droplight and(or) diagonal lighting conduits on the cab rear had bodyside panels with hinged straps (h/s) but without vertical grab handles (v/h) - so my black Bachmann specimen is unquestionably wrong in this respect, it shouldn't have the vertical grab handles.

 

Certainly some shunters had unpainted coupling rods and varnished, rather than painted, cab doors and droplight. These may well have been only the Darlington built early-era ones but it is an issue which is difficult to check rigorously using contemporary black and white photographs and therefore I largely stayed quiet on the subject, particularly in respect of the varnished droplights. I did give comprehensive links to the photographic collections which I used, some of which offered surprisingly comprehensive coverage of early locos, and I suggest you might find some research among them useful. The varnished cab doors and droplights would indeed have been a wood-brown colour weathering over time to wood-grey.

 

Thanks for that, I'll bear that in mind! I will not definitely go one way or the other on the coupling rods yet then. 

 

On 30/10/2020 at 17:37, Alex TM said:

Hi again,

 

I found the magazine but, on a quick look through, don't see the remark I thought was there.  There are, though, a number of colour images of 08s in plain green or black with 1948 series numbers.  If they're of use I'm happy to note them and post here.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

 

 

Hi Alex, that would be very helpful, thank you! Apologies for that late reply, I've had Corona. 

[Alex TM]

Hi seaber,

 

Sorry to hear about the virus; I hope you make a full and speedy recovery.

 

I've got some time off this week, so I'll get the information noted and posted.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Sorry for the delay in getting this done; it's been a bit busy for a so-called week off.

 

The following data comes from 'Modern Locomotives Illustrated' No. 202, BR Standard Shunters Classes 08, 09, 10 & 13.

 

13075 Green E/C  (Due to the very low number I'm tempted to suggest this was a repaint.)

13282 Green E/C

13215 Black E/C

13240 Black E/C

13348 Green L/C (B&W image with caption claiming it's green.  Looks to 'light' to be black.)

 

Except as noted these pictures are in colour.  There are a number of other images in B&W that show 1948 series numbers, and are clear enough to reasonably suggest whether they'r eblack or green;  I can list these as well if you think it'll be of use.

 

Hope these help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[bécasse]

On 29/10/2020 at 13:57, seaber said:

 

 

I believe Darlington left their 08 side rods unpainted, whereas Derby painted them red, and Darlington varnished the wooden doors on the 08s they built. Is it clear if these would have been a wood-brown colour or black like the loco body? I think those are the only major differences between the two. 

 

Given the almost total lack of colour photographs, it is almost impossible to distinguish between red-painted and unpainted coupling rods. It is clear that they quickly became surprisingly dirty in service so any original painted/unpainted difference would seemingly have quickly become irrelevant.

 

I have now looked more closely at the question of droplight frames and cab doors being varnished rather than painted on Darlington-built locos. It has become clear that only the final 20 locos built there with wooden droplight frames had them varnished rather than painted (13137-13144, 13152-13158 and 13217-13221) and these were all originally black-painted locos (with black-painted wooden doors). Darlington obviously considered that green locos looked better with varnished doors because it seems that that works turned out all of its green-painted locos with varnished doors until the very final batches with alloy doors which were, of course, painted green. All of its black-painted production had had doors painted the body colour. While it is possible that the small number of locos built at Doncaster might have had varnished doors in the absence of photographic evidence to the contrary, I think it unlikely, given the long history of livery variations between the two works.

 

I will be updating my original tables and comments in "source 2" to reflect these variations.