Goods trains. How were exchange sidings worked?

[Tom Burnham]

The Railway Clearing House maintained number takers at junctions between companies to record the numbers of rolling stock passing from one company to another - in 1922 there were more than 500 employed for this purpose. 

 

Presumably wagons would only be exchanged under normal circumstances at points covered by the RCH? 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Tom Burnham said:

Presumably wagons would only be exchanged under normal circumstances at points covered by the RCH? 

 

I can't imagine there was enough exchange traffic at Hawes to warrant an RCH employee stationed there. I wonder if this in this case the stationmaster would have had to make a return to the RCH, perhaps weekly?

[KeithMacdonald]

Would the LSWR and GWR have had exchange sidings/facilities where they met in Winchester?

 

 

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Would the LSWR and GWR have had exchange sidings/facilities where they met in Winchester?

 

The junction was end-on at the south end of the Great Western station. There's no sign of exchange sidings on the 1908 OS 25" map. I would assume from that that either Great Western engines worked their goods trains through to Southampton or that Great Western goods trains were handed over whole to LSWR engines and brakes at Winchester.

[KeithMacdonald]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The junction was end-on at the south end of the Great Western station. There's no sign of exchange sidings on the 1908 OS 25" map. I would assume from that that either Great Western engines worked their goods trains through to Southampton or that Great Western goods trains were handed over whole to LSWR engines and brakes at Winchester.

 

Err, perhaps the other station in Winchester, the one with two goods yards?

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.05599&lon=-1.30666&layers=168&b=1

[Compound2632]

That was the station to which I was referring. The goods yards are just that, not exchange sidings. The RCH junction diagram may clarify:

 

[KeithMacdonald]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

That was the station to which I was referring. The goods yards are just that, not exchange sidings. The RCH junction diagram may clarify:

 

 

It does clarify, thanks.

 

Just so I don't make the same mistake again, do Junction Diagrams explicitly show "Exchange Sidings"?

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Just so I don't make the same mistake again, do Junction Diagrams explicitly show "Exchange Sidings"?

 

No, they don't. For reference: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Railways_Junctions_Diagram_1914

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Compound2632

[KeithMacdonald]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No, they don't. For reference: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Railways_Junctions_Diagram_1914

 

 

Does that mention exchange sidings? Otherwise, not sure how that helps.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Railways_Junctions_Diagram_1914

 

Perhaps you have a better example of a LSWR / GWR exchange siding in mind?

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Does that mention exchange sidings? Otherwise, not sure how that helps.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Railways_Junctions_Diagram_1914

 

Perhaps you have a better example of a LSWR / GWR exchange siding in mind?

 

Sorry, no, I was just intending to provide a link to the RCH Junction diagrams. I don't know much about places where the GWR and LSWR met. They weren't really very friendly so I'm sure would have tried to keep traffic on their systems or those of their allies - the Midland routed traffic for the West Country via Bath and Templecombe, the LNWR via the Severn Tunnel. 

[KeithMacdonald]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

They weren't really very friendly

 

Agreed, and that's the tone of this thread (S&DJR not LSWR, but both being GWR rivals) 

 

 

 

[richbrummitt]

4 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Would the LSWR and GWR have had exchange sidings/facilities where they met in Winchester?

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The junction was end-on at the south end of the Great Western station. There's no sign of exchange sidings on the 1908 OS 25" map. I would assume from that that either Great Western engines worked their goods trains through to Southampton or that Great Western goods trains were handed over whole to LSWR engines and brakes at Winchester.

The 1911 STT No 3.* shows a goods train to Southampton from Reading (F head code). There maybe others I just had a quick look to make sure I had remembered correctly that any goods train did exist. 

*This is available on the Michael Clements website. 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

 

The 1911 STT No 3.* shows a goods train to Southampton from Reading (F head code). There maybe others I just had a quick look to make sure I had remembered correctly that any goods train did exist. 

*This is available on the Michael Clements website. 

 

Is that a LSWR train via Basingstoke or a GWR train via Didcot?

[richbrummitt]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is that a LSWR train via Basingstoke or a GWR train via Didcot?

The No. 3 timetable doesn’t show Didcot. It appears to originate from Reading according to that one timetable. If it did come from Didcot it would be reversing at Reading?  I think it’s No. 1 to look for a prior working from Didcot. It’s route is via Newbury rather than Basingstoke but it didn’t reach Newbury via the DN&S.

[Compound2632]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, here's a "foreign wagon homeward" label from March 1900 showing NER wagon No. 7722 with sheet No. 22892* being returned from Ribblehead via Hawes within four days of being received: MRSC Item 14192.

 

*I wonder if those numbers have been entered in the wrong fields? 

 

 

From West Hartlepool it was more convenient to go by the Stockton & Darlington route over Stainmore and hand over to the Midland at Appleby: MRSC Item 31760. A load of Baltic timber for the MR's resident engineer at Blea Moor. 

[Tom Burnham]

On 06/11/2020 at 15:08, Compound2632 said:

 

The junction was end-on at the south end of the Great Western station. There's no sign of exchange sidings on the 1908 OS 25" map. I would assume from that that either Great Western engines worked their goods trains through to Southampton or that Great Western goods trains were handed over whole to LSWR engines and brakes at Winchester.

According to the1920 "Railway Yearbook", "The L & S W Ry Co work the portion of D N & S Ry (2 miles) between Winchester and Shawford Junction."  So at least in this case, the Ry Jct Diagrams show the company responsible for working rather than the owning company.  As I read the history, the Didcot , Newbury & Southampton were unable to raise the capital for their line south of Winchester, and were forced to make do with a junction with the L&SWR and running powers to Southampton, much to the disgust of a body of their own shareholders, especially in Southampton, who wanted to see the L&SW monopoly broken.  However, it doesn't look as if the GWR exercised running powers with its own locos - exchange happened at Winchester (GW).

Incidentally, a couple of friends and I discovered the closed but still largely intact Winchester (Chesil) station in the course of a school historical society visit to the city in the mid-60s, and walked through the tunnel and for some distance beyond...

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

Incidentally, a couple of friends and I discovered the closed but still largely intact Winchester (Chesil) station in the course of a school historical society visit to the city in the mid-60s, and walked through the tunnel and for some distance beyond...

 

There was a rather splendid layout P4 based on Winchester Chesil (or Cheesehill - much better name) many years ago - it featured in MRJ No. 9. I've just looked it up - I'm afraid there's no discussion of operation.

[richbrummitt]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There was a rather splendid layout P4 based on Winchester Chesil (or Cheesehill - much better name) many years ago - it featured in MRJ No. 9. I've just looked it up - I'm afraid there's no discussion of operation.

It still exists: The layout is on permanent display (as a diorama) in Milestones museum at Basingstoke. 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

It still exists: The layout is on permanent display (as a diorama) in Milestones museum at Basingstoke. 

 

A museum we've nearly visited several times. Must try harder! (Once conditions permit...)

[wessy]

It is also worth remembering that in groups of sidings, individual ones were often designated for particular traffic, including exchange with other companies. The attachment shows the designation of some of the sidings at the south end of Bamfurlong just south of Wigan on the WCML as they were used in 1919.

[simonmcp]

I see the L&Y had a siding for "Rough Traffic for the Liverpool line..."

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, simonmcp said:

I see the L&Y had a siding for "Rough Traffic for the Liverpool line..."

 

Not sorted into station order - will need further marshalling en route.

[Compound2632]

Here's a post-grouping factlet that I learned from Radio 3 this morning. I can't think of a more appropriate topic to put it in:

 

Arnold Schoenberg was in London in January 1928 to direct the British premiere of his overblown late romantic cantata Gurrelieder. This calls for vast forces, including on that occasion the combined forces of several choirs, one of which was the Railway Clearing House Male Voice Choir.

[webbcompound]

On 06/11/2020 at 17:40, Compound2632 said:

 

 I don't know much about places where the GWR and LSWR met. They weren't really very friendly so I'm sure would have tried to keep traffic on their systems or those of their allies - the Midland routed traffic for the West Country via Bath and Templecombe, the LNWR via the Severn Tunnel. 

There was nevertheless an amount of pragmatism in play where necessary as they ran a passenger service to Birkenhead which alternated GWR and LSWR trains on different days. Presumably GWR hauled at the Northern end.