gordon s Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) For some time, one of my golfing pals has been talking about a train set he had been given when his wife was expecting. Needless to say they had two girls and it had been stored in his loft for ages. Some years ago, someone took a look at it for him, but I'm told, couldn't get it to work. so curiosity got the better of me. He described it to me and I was expecting something from Triang/Hornby, so was somewhat taken aback when he arrived a couple of hours ago with this large heavy box. Inside were a loco/tender and two pullman coaches plus several pieces of track and a transformer/controller that could be deadly in the wrong hands.... I'd be interested to hear what these are or any background information you can add to my internet searches on Lionel tin plate which will start shortly. I thought the loco was an 0-4-0 tender loco but have just found a pair of coupling rods and a front pony truck, so correction, a 2-4-0. It all appears in reasonable condition in original boxes, but I have no idea if it's a 'Harrington Watch' worth a few million or a more likely, a just a few bob to a collector. I certainly don't feel comfortable about the mains transformer and would be very unhappy with a child playing with it without an electrical expert thoroughly testing the mains side. Here are some pics of what I have.... Edited November 4, 2020 by gordon s 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Is it actually G1, or is it "Standard Gauge", i.e. 2.125"? I'm pretty certain No.384 is the latter, dating from the very early 1930s, and the loco should be a 2-4-0, so the front truck is missing. There is a small following for SG in Britain, and if you contact Bryan Pentland of the Train collectors Society, he can almost certainly put you in touch with the very few collectors that there are. I it is an original 1930s one, the condition is stunning, so should work in your favour when setting a price. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 You could watch the bidding here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/27-155-LIONEL-384E-384T-STANDARD-GAUGE-VERY-NICE-OB/133559476008?hash=item1f18c3df28:g:PJgAAOSwhnZfmVgl But, the problem with SG in this country is that the market is very small. If all the collectors here already have one each, it could be worth "nothing", if none of them have it, and all desperately want it, your friend may be in luck. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 Thanks for that, Nearholmer. I have now found the coupling rods and front pony truck and maybe tomorrow I'll take a look inside. You're right, it is the Lionel Standard Gauge, not Gauge 1. Overall the condition of the stock is pretty good considering its age. I will contact Bryan Pentland and see what he says. Any idea what voltage they ran on as I have no intention of plugging in the transformer to meter the output? I shudder to think of kids playing with electrical equipment of this age. Both the loco and coaches have centre rollers for the 3 rail track to power both the motor and internal coach lighting. Really surprised just how heavy the loco is.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) TBH, I'm not totally sure, I think it may be 20V AC, like most pre-war Hornby. That transformer doesn't look to me like a "controller"; I suspect that it has windings with tappings taken out to terminals for various voltages, plus very limited voltage variability with certain connections - see the rating plate. If I'm right about that, the best you could get from it would be very limited control, plus "notching" by moving between tappings. I don't think its the original transformer, possibly one found from somewhere because the Lionel one had a 110V primary. The motor is almost certainly wound-field, so quite easy to fix even if it is faulty, and it may not be faulty at all - they are mega robust. A good clean-up, and possibly new brushes, might do the trick. It will take a lot of current by modern standards, even by 1930s Hornby standards, though. But, even as a qualified electrical engineer, I'd approach that transformer with very great caution, certainly physically check everything, fit new leads,check insulation resistances, and run it via an RCD. If you aren't electrically knowledgeable: leave well alone! Edited November 2, 2020 by Nearholmer 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 No worries on the electrical front, I won't be going anywhere near 240v, nor will this box. Just taken the top off to have a look inside and the first thing that greeted me was a label that said March 1935..... There appears to be some form of control at one end, but it has locked solid. I suspect it's a stepped rotary switch to tap into the various voltages as you suggest. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sncf231e Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Nice train and looking good for 90 years old! It runs on 18V AC. According to the LIONEL Standard gauge guide the 384 is the smallest, cheapest and most common Lionel Standard Gauge locomotive (1930-1932). The price guide (not very current) mentions $500. This loco came with freight cars or with the 338 series passenger cars, so you have a matching set; according to the guide the red with cream window version is the rarest with a value of $150 for each car. Regards Fred 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 Thanks for the info again. 18v AC is good to know as like most, I have a 16v AC outlet on a modern transformer. Whether is has enough power to turn the motor remains to be seen. Having had a closer look, it's easy to see why the coupling rods have been taken off. The quartering is a mile out on both sides, so the wheels will have to come off to be realigned on each axle and then the quartering completely set from scratch. Looking at the drivers, there are minor damage marks and I can see one spoke is missing, so I'm very reluctant to take a wheel puller to each driver as there is risk of further damage to the cast hubs. Fascinating to look at something of this age. They certainly don't make 'em like they used to...... I like the hand reversing lever between the drivers above...... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Yes, it is too easily done. I put a hairline crack in a wheel on a Bassett Lowke loco by not being careful enough with a wheel-puller when fixing a huge quartering problem that had when I acquired it (cheap - because it didn't work - due to the obvious quartering problem!). Depending upon the exact shape of the casting, putting a spreader-plate under the wheel and pulling on that is safest - a coin with a slot cut to a hole drilled in the centre is sometimes good. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carne Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Off the top of my head, there are 9 of us in the UK who do Standard Gauge, and 2 of those are not actively collecting. Plus I have a 384E, in fact I have 2, an original black one and a Lionel Classics 2 tone grey one, so I don't want one, which means 6 people in the UK who might want it. Mark 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Is there any type/size/variety of train that you don't collect? Just asking. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Lovely stuff, true toy trains! The best I can up with is a boxed Lionel O gauge set; other than that the usual post war trains and accessories. Brian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 3, 2020 Author Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) Well, some good and some pretty bad news..... Hooked up my 16vAC and some faint signs of life from the motor. Amazed how easy it was to pull the drive out of the body with just two clips holding it in place. The motor itself would barely move and with just two knurled screws holding the bottom plate in place, I decided to see what the problem was. Took off the bottom plate and was just sliding the axles out when, pow!, one of the wheels virtually exploded in my hand. The driver that had previously been damaged just totally disintegrated leaving the hub on the axle and the spokes broke into numerous pieces.... My worst nightmare as I was doing a friend a favour. Of course nothing I could do, the damage was done. The good news is that without the wheels in place and I had cleaned and lubricated the mechanism the motor ran quite well, particularly for something 80-90 years old.... Once the wheels were out, I could see the problem. Not only was the other wheel dished, it was riddled with rot as per the Mazak problems which we all know about. These were both an accident waiting to happen. The two drivers on the drive side appear to be OK. I think it's easy to see what has happened. Not only the rot issue, but the as the quartering was miles out, these wheels have been pushed on in the wrong position and the serrated splines on the axles have just bitten into the wheels causing the cracking and creating an accident waiting to happen. I've rung my friend and explained, but still feel sad that this has happened and am now looking for some solutions. I have found these on a US site that may do the job. https://www.trainz.com/products/lionel-390-44x-super-motor-red-plain-spoked-steam-loco-drive-wheel They are 14 spoke versions and appear to be the correct size. Can anyone confirm as Trainz don't seem to offer a look up service? The other problem is whilst I have the crosshead rods the main coupling rods are missing. Found these, but they are sold out. I'll keep searching but as always grateful for any ideas how to see this wonderful loco running again. https://www.trainz.com/products/lionel-390-31-side-rod-384-390?variant=40950633286 Edited November 3, 2020 by gordon s 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Coupling rods ought not to be too difficult to make from the pattern of an extant one on another loco. The wheel-centres I wonder if, as a backstop in case you can’t get spares, it might be possible to cast in resin using a good one as a pattern, and then fit turned tyres to. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 3, 2020 Author Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) I have managed to find a set of four driving wheels from Model Engineering Works for $44 plus shipping which seems reasonable. https://hennings-trains.shoplightspeed.com/model-engineering-works-bal-4r-steam-wheel-set-for.html Both con rods are missing, but I have the rod centres, so if all else fails I could fabricate a pair. Looking at the driving wheels on the drive side, the tyre seems to be a piece of thin stamped sheet that has been pressed over the casting. Not seen that done before.... I have to admit after years of playing with 4mm stock, there's something special about a large solid chassis like this one. I can fully understand the attraction of the larger gauges now. Could be the thin end of a very large wedge.... Edit: Just found some rods..... https://hennings-trains.shoplightspeed.com/390-31-connecting-rod-384-390.html Edited November 3, 2020 by gordon s 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 You can see the cracks in the wheels in the photo above. It could even be the zincpest caused the wheels to move out of quarter in the first place. I assume that the wheels were quartered correctly originally, as I doubt that a kit would require the builder to quarter the wheels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 3, 2020 Author Share Posted November 3, 2020 I agree. Of course I don't know the full history, but as supplied they would have been fine. Something must have gone wrong years ago and someone with the best of intentions has tried to rectify it. I now have both wheels on the driving gear side correctly set and it runs freely without the rods. With both wheels driven by the gears, the rods are actually cosmetic items. The key will be pushing the wheels on correctly. I suspect that was where the problems started..... Funnily enough the gauge on the wheels as supplied to me were wider than the track itself, so that also points towards problems pressing the wheels back in place at some time in the past. That made me think about B2B for the loco wheels. The track is 2 1/8" gauge, but the coach wheels appear free to move between a knurled section on the axle and the frame itself. Thankfully there are no turnouts in the track supplied. Who needs P4 standards?...... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) If you look at the turnout in the foreground of Mark’s photo, you will see that it will permit hugely variant b-t-b. The gods of toy trains clearly intend you to become the tenth Standard Gauge bloke in Britain - go for it! BTW, if there is a drive arrangement guaranteed to be especially fiddly to set-up correctly, it is one that has both gear and rod coupling, so have fun. Do the rods have slots, rather than purely circular holes for the crank pins at one end? That helps. Edited November 3, 2020 by Nearholmer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted November 4, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 4, 2020 I just looked at a Lionel O gauge car from 1953. The wheels are loose on the axles and can slide in and out a bit. I measured 1 5/64" back-to-back for a nominal 1 1/4" gauge. (remembering that Lionel's manuals showed that as the distance to the middle of the rail!). I wonder if the rods were removed or never replaced because of the quartering problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 4, 2020 Author Share Posted November 4, 2020 (edited) Seek and ye shall find.....Deep within a bag of track joiners, I have found two coupling rods...... Thinking I've cracked it, work recommenced this morning. The motor turns and the front light works. I have the pony truck and am just missing the split pin to secure that in place, but I can fabricate that without problem. Con rod and slide now in place and that works...... Checked the quartering on this side and all appears OK. The coupling rod fits, so the centres are fine. .....but something isn't quite right. The rod is touching the wheel and adding a ton of friction. My first thought was a spacer was missing to lift the rod away from from the wheel hub, but looking at this pic of another loco, there doesn't appear to be any form of spacer fitted behind the rod. If that is the case, it can only point to dishing of the wheels again, which is taking the hub back within the outer wheel plane. In the pic two above, the hub on the left hand wheel is just raising the rod sufficiently to miss the wheel rim. The right hand wheel is certainly dished a mm or so below the wheel plane. The wheel tyres are probably not helping, but clearly all four wheels will need to be replaced. It's times like these I wish my FiL was still alive. As a toolmaker all his working life, he would have this fixed in minutes. RIP Jack...... ....so any real engineers (not me) who have a solution, I'm all ears....... Edited November 4, 2020 by gordon s 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Its hard to be sure from the photo, but I suspect that one of those wheels isn't square on the axle, maybe because of warping, maybe because its been off and not gone back square. Personally, I think I would fit all new wheels, maybe even new wheels and axles if the axles show any signs of damage, but presumably that would make it an expensive repair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Judicious leverage with a screwdriver in the right place will usually sort this, but seeing the age of the wheels, I'd be loathe to risk it. Are the steel tyres pressed fully into place? I'd be inclined to make a modification and slip a washer behind the coupling rods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carne Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 There is no spacer between the rod and the wheel, those wheels need replacing, not doing all 4 will be a false economy, as you are buying a set of 4 I presume? They dish like that when the "grow" due to mazac rot, as the steel tyre, which is entirely original, stops them expanding, so they dish inwards instead. Also found some photos on my computer of some Lionel UK market catalogues I've got. The loco, tender and coaches were an export set, sold in the UK long after the loco had been deleted from the USA range. This catalogue even came with its original envelope, from the UK Lionel agent. Mark 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 4, 2020 Author Share Posted November 4, 2020 (edited) Thanks IG. I will be ordering a complete new set of wheels and a pair of carbon brushes tomorrow from the US. Managed to slip some washers behind the rod to test that it all rotated freely and very happy to say the whole of one side works. As I hope to have new wheels arriving in the next four weeks or so, I feel fairly confident this old lady will run again soon. At present I'm using the 16vAC fixed output from my Gaugemaster controller to run the loco, but I will need to start thinking about how this beauty is going to be controlled. My electronic knowledge is fairly limited, but I'm going to need a controller circuit capable of supply an AC voltage from 0-16vAC that will handle this motor. The Gaugemaster D is a 1A unit and the motor runs quite happily. I have a separate Gaugemaster 16vAC transformer which would be ideal, so I guess I need some form of electrical control to provide the variable voltage from 0-16v. Grateful for any ideas how this can be done at a reasonable cost. Edited November 4, 2020 by gordon s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 4, 2020 Author Share Posted November 4, 2020 (edited) Thanks Mark, our post crossed. That catalogue page is wonderful and I will pass it on to my friend. My own memories of Lionel go back to the 50's when we were taken into Central London to see the huge Lionel layout in Gamages of Holborn. I'm guessing I would have been around 10 and memories of that layout were probably the first step on a slippery slope of railway modelling that I still have some 60 years later. Other interests have come and gone, but model railways really get in your blood...... Edit: £4/4/- in 1937 is around £300 in todays money.....Bargain...:-) Edited November 4, 2020 by gordon s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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