The Signal Engineers - 1962 - Single Distant Multiple Homes Question

[beast66606]

1 hour ago, Martin Shaw said:

Having now seen a diagram for FP No 5 I realise that the distants were worked, although whether for all routes I'm not certain. None of the layout was high speed so they could be, but you would need to see the dog chart to be completely certain.

Regards

Martin

 

Can you provide a link to the diagram please ?

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, beast66606 said:

 

Can you provide a link to the diagram please ?

Already on the site on page 2 of this thread.

The Distants on the first three dolls are controlled by lever 39. I would guess that it applies to the Down Goods as the left hand doll only reads to that line and the next signal on that line has 4 route indicators controlled by levers 40/41/42/43. The Distant on the right hand doll is contolled by lever 28.  I haven't worked out a logical use from the numbering at No.5.

 

Regarding the structure itself, I think that solution was arrived at as it was a fairly restricted space and to use separate dolls a gantry about 70 feet long would be required. I would estimate that only about 50 feet would be available.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, Martin Shaw said:

It all looks a bit complicated without knowledge of where it is, which is Finsbury Park. It is the No3 box down homes for the lines, from the left, Dn Goods No2, Dn Goods No 1, Dn Carriage Line, Dn Canonbury. Forward routes from there are Dn Goods, Dn Carriage Line, Dn Slow No 2, Dn Slow No 1, the distants are for Finsbury Park No 5 on those four lines. The middle two dolls can access all four routes, the left hand one the Dn goods only and the right hand one everything except the Dn Goods. Here is a link to the diagram,

http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/sbdiagrams/finsbury_park_no_3.jpg

 

I think/suspect the distant arms are fixed otherwise the slotting becomes a tangled web

 

 

Regards

Martin

Thanks Martin - I thought that it was somewhere in that arae but couldn't place it exactly.

 

I had a suspicion from the placing of the distant arms that they were a peculiar variation on the LNER Southern Division practice of placing isolated distant signals very short distances in advance of the signal box in rear of that to whose signals  they applied.  A very peculiar arrangement when you were well used to lower arm distants.  It would be interesting to know  if the FP No.5 diagram confirms my impression.  And having found the actual box diagram online that was indeed the case - the distant arm on the Down Canonbury Line doll was for the Down Canonbury to No.1 Down Slow Home at FP No.5 and was worked by lever No.28)  while the other distant arms were all worked by the same lever (No.39) at FP No.5  and clearly applied to the Down Goods to No. 1 Down Slow Home Signal at FP No.5

 

The slotting must have been interesting to say the least

 

 

[great central]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 

Deleted, duplicate post

Edited January 20, 2021 by great central

[great central]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

See my previous comment on that point; it's a good way of remembering it, but otherwise I truly cannot see a link ......... nobody reads a book with a view to turning left on the basis of what the first paragraph says, a bit less left on the basis of the second paragraph etc.

 

And, I do understand that drivers are trained to read signals, while people off the street aren't, but in a way that is the point: a person needs to be trained, and to have memory-jogger, to react appropriately to the stacking of signals, whereas in a truly good design, the meaning would be far more intuitive, as it is with a more typical splitting signal, or a feather, or a route indicator.

 

Spectacular bit of engineering anyway.

 

Everyone learns something about their environment, it's simply a matter of degree.

If you drive along a road regularly you learn certain features and it should allow you to drive more safely, and possibly quicker along that road? 

A train driver needs to know where they are and what to expect at any given moment, even in fog they're expected to be able to maintain close to line speed, yet be aware of signals and braking distances.

That's why they have to learn routes in detail, I speak as a guard and I have to have good route knowledge, for instance, Nottingham-Liverpool was three weeks to learn for me, a driver gets 9-12 I think.

Would you want to have responsibility for, possibly, several hundred people's lives without proper training?

Railway signalling is constantly evolving, what was considered satisfactory a while ago has now been superseded, obvious case in point being the almost complete replacement of lamp type colour lights with LEDs, much brighter and easy to see even in sunlight.

I'm on a course for the next few days to learn 170s so that I know how to work them properly and safely, as well as being able to deal with minor faults.

[beast66606]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

The slotting must have been interesting to say the least

 

 

 

Indeed - and some of the stop arms were worked by 2 boxes.

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

distant arm on the Down Canonbury Line doll was for the Down Canonbury to No.1 Down Slow Home at FP No.5 and was worked by lever No.28)  while the other distant arms were all worked by the same lever (No.39) at FP No.5  and clearly applied to the Down Goods to No. 1 Down Slow Home Signal at FP No.5

 

That was my first impression on putting the two diagrams together.

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The slotting must have been interesting to say the least

Backslotting distants was always interesting. We had some around Saltley where you had to offer a train five sections along the line then pull off the distants in reverse order back through the sections. In the Down direction there was a splitting distant involved as well.

It was a right PITA if a train was wrongly belled as there were lots of routing codes and it was all Midland Rotary Block. It stopped the job for about 10 minutes to sort it out in the proper way, then the Lineman had to replace the seals, but if the DSI wasn't about quick phone calls along the line on the direct blockshelf phones usually fixed the problem.

[The Stationmaster]

This thread is interesting for anybody who wants to know a bit more about that area -

 

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3485

 

The short section working must have been quite a task in that area as well.  There were at one time numerous places where asking forward had to be carried out and it was a fascinating process working it out for the 'box Instructions in such a way that apart from obviously getting the block working right it also minimised the chances of delaying trains.  Years ago a colleague of mine showed me the chart he had to draw up to arrive at the best way of arranging things for the 'boxes approaching Cardiff from the east where there were 4 'boxes in less than a mile so a similar sort of situation - but without rotary block of course.   I don't know if all the distant signal were controlled in that area but it would have added a bit of extra complication if 2-2-2 acceptances also had to be used approaching the shortest sections.

 

All something which has been lost from today's far, far, simpler railway