Help please with BR Class 45 Peak 'Economy Green' livery

[andyman7]

Hi, I'm finishing off a Peak in 'Economy Green' livery with SYP as an example of the variant in my rather diverse modelling odyssey. The model is a centre split headcode version, and I want this one to retain the side steps and boiler ports with the bodyside slit grille also unplated, so that puts it around 66-67 before these features began to be altered. The version I have has the triangular grille plated over. Going through various sources including Russell Saxton's book and RMWeb as well as the DerbySulzers site and the BR Locomotive database, I've highlighted D36, D42 and D46 as potential examples but finding any actual photos is very difficult (the old RMWeb threads have many dead links in them these days). Any help would be appreciated.

 

Also, Economy Green appears to encompass the roof, but it s hard to tell whether the roof centre panels are also green, dark grey or even light grey that has got dirty very quickly. The best image I can find is the Tower Models picture of the Heljan O gauge economy green variant and even that is not definitive (and of course the model livery could be wrong).

 

As always, all help will be appreciated. 

[45125]

The roof hatches were green.

There is a colour photo of D123 at Duffield in one publication of it almost ex works.

 

[andyman7]

It seems that one of the Bachmann peak releases was 'economy green' but is depicted with the central roof area still being grey. Is this something Bachmann got wrong or were there variations?

[w124bob]

Rail online D36 at Beeston  https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p920577291

The other two seem to be more illusive, what I will add is your time frame puts them firmly in the scruffy era. The locos were difficult to fuel up without overflowing particularly for a lone fitter. The only gauge is internal so the lazy way was to wait until the overflow kicked in. If you look closely at the Bachy Peak above, between the fan and the cab are two pips these are actually over low valves. What this means is the roof was pretty much dirty black from end to end. This answer only works if you like your locos weathered! 

Edited June 9, 2021 by w124bob

[br2975]

On 07/06/2021 at 19:43, andyman7 said:

It seems that one of the Bachmann peak releases was 'economy green' but is depicted with the central roof area still being grey. Is this something Bachmann got wrong or were there variations?

 

Well the roof appears (dirty) grey in this image.

.

Photographer unknown.

[Hal Nail]

13 minutes ago, br2975 said:

 

Well the roof appears (dirty) grey in this image.

.

Photographer unknown.

Good find, not noticed that variation before this thread. The yellow panel is also different to standard, with straight outer edges instead of ending half way under each light.

[Halvarras]

On 07/06/2021 at 19:43, andyman7 said:

It seems that one of the Bachmann peak releases was 'economy green' but is depicted with the central roof area still being grey. Is this something Bachmann got wrong or were there variations?

 

It certainly looks like there were variations, but it was not unusual for modification programmes to be simplified as they progressed. Probably because the budget (and/or in this case the supply of grey paint) was running out. A colour photo of D36 in plain green at Chinley on 9/6/68 appears on page 10 of 'Modern Locomotives Illustrated' No 192 - it has the normal-pattern warning panel (yellow extended around the lamps) but although well-lit the roof colour under the dirt is uncertain - I think it's grey like D163, however both this photo and one of D163 at Gateshead in 1971 suggest that the cab roofs were also grey but this stopped short of the roof ends leaving a band of green above the windscreen rainstrips. It's possible, because Classes 37 & 40 were finished this way, although they didn't have rainstrips to form a natural paint line. I'm not convinced that any Peaks were finished as per the Bachmann model with green cab roofs.

 

I have a Bachmann D163 and because I want to model the loco as it was in 1971 (as the Western Region's only named Peak) I will have to:

- Modify the (incorrect in this livery) split-centre headcodes to single panel

- Scribe in the missing nose seam lines

- Remove the boiler filler covers (if possible without damage)

- Panel over the bodyside steps

- Remove the (incorrect) underframe tanks

- Remove the inner bogie sandboxes

- Remove the B-end inner bogie steps

- Remove the redundant MU/ETH bufferbeam brackets

- Shorten the cab door handrails

- Widen the yellow warning panels

- Replace the undersized running numbers

- Repaint the maroon etched plates to red

- ..........and decide what colour the cab roofs should be!

All this to turn a model of D163 into a more accurate model of D163! OK, some of these changes are year-specific, but overall "Leicestershire and Derbyshire Yeomanry" was not Bachmann's finest hour!!

[andyman7]

Thanks. Checking the few other colour images of peaks in economy green they definitely do not have this centre grey part - it extends low enough that it cannot be mistaken for dirt or roof shadows. So Bachmann have got the livery right for D163, and it is a variation.

Edited June 10, 2021 by andyman7

[andyman7]

3 minutes ago, Neil Phillips said:

 

It certainly looks like there were variations, but it was not unusual for modification programmes to be simplified as they progressed. Probably because the budget (and/or in this case the supply of grey paint) was running out. A colour photo of D36 in plain green at Chinley on 9/6/68 appears on page 10 of 'Modern Locomotives Illustrated' No 192 - it has the normal-pattern warning panel (yellow extended around the lamps) but although well-lit the roof colour under the dirt is uncertain - I think it's grey like D163, however both this photo and one of D163 at Gateshead in 1971 suggest that the cab roofs were also grey but this stopped short of the roof ends leaving a band of green above the windscreen rainstrips. It's possible, because Classes 37 & 40 were finished this way, although they didn't have rainstrips to form a natural paint line. I'm not convinced that any Peaks were finished as per the Bachmann model with green cab roofs.

 

I have a Bachmann D163 and because I want to model the loco as it was in 1971 (as the Western Region's only named Peak) I will have to:

- Modify the (incorrect in this livery) split-centre headcodes to single panel

- Scribe in the missing nose seam lines

- Remove the boiler filler covers (if possible without damage)

- Panel over the bodyside steps

- Remove the (incorrect) underframe tanks

- Remove the inner bogie sandboxes

- Remove the B-end inner bogie steps

- Remove the redundant MU/ETH bufferbeam brackets

- Shorten the cab door handrails

- Widen the yellow warning panels

- Replace the undersized running numbers

- Repaint the maroon etched plates to red

- ..........and decide what colour the cab roofs should be!

All this to turn a model of D163 into a more accurate model of D163! OK, some of these changes are year-specific, but overall "Leicestershire and Derbyshire Yeomanry" was not Bachmann's finest hour!!

I have found that this sort of list is typical if trying to get a specific locomotive within a large and long lived class correct for an exact period using any pre-2010 or so RTR model (and of course some more recent releases)

[andyman7]

11 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Good find, not noticed that variation before this thread. The yellow panel is also different to standard, with straight outer edges instead of ending half way under each light.

I've just realised where I've seen that photo before....it's the one used on the fold up lid to the box of the first Bachmann Class 46 release nearly 30 years ago...!

Edited June 10, 2021 by andyman7

[Hal Nail]

11 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

I have a Bachmann D163 and because I want to model the loco as it was in 1971 (as the Western Region's only named Peak) I will have to:

Also the 46 had an extra raised panel on the roof between the fan and the two long engine access (?) hatches.

[RBAGE]

11 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

 

It certainly looks like there were variations, but it was not unusual for modification programmes to be simplified as they progressed. Probably because the budget (and/or in this case the supply of grey paint) was running out. A colour photo of D36 in plain green at Chinley on 9/6/68 appears on page 10 of 'Modern Locomotives Illustrated' No 192 - it has the normal-pattern warning panel (yellow extended around the lamps) but although well-lit the roof colour under the dirt is uncertain - I think it's grey like D163, however both this photo and one of D163 at Gateshead in 1971 suggest that the cab roofs were also grey but this stopped short of the roof ends leaving a band of green above the windscreen rainstrips. It's possible, because Classes 37 & 40 were finished this way, although they didn't have rainstrips to form a natural paint line. I'm not convinced that any Peaks were finished as per the Bachmann model with green cab roofs.

 

I have a Bachmann D163 and because I want to model the loco as it was in 1971 (as the Western Region's only named Peak) I will have to:

- Modify the (incorrect in this livery) split-centre headcodes to single panel

- Scribe in the missing nose seam lines

- Remove the boiler filler covers (if possible without damage)

- Panel over the bodyside steps

- Remove the (incorrect) underframe tanks

- Remove the inner bogie sandboxes

- Remove the B-end inner bogie steps

- Remove the redundant MU/ETH bufferbeam brackets

- Shorten the cab door handrails

- Widen the yellow warning panels

- Replace the undersized running numbers

- Repaint the maroon etched plates to red

- ..........and decide what colour the cab roofs should be!

All this to turn a model of D163 into a more accurate model of D163! OK, some of these changes are year-specific, but overall "Leicestershire and Derbyshire Yeomanry" was not Bachmann's finest hour!!

I raised the head code issue with Bachmann when it was first released. They washed their hands of it, saying it was the client who did the research for the release.

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Also the 46 had an extra raised panel on the roof between the fan and the two long engine access (?) hatches.

 

I've just checked that and you're quite right. Something else to add to the list. Methinks this is going to take some time.....!

Before returning this thread to economy green Peaks, I thought this July 1964 pic of D163 may be of interest. As well as the overlarge yellow panel, note the split-centre headcode and lack of small triangular side grille, both changed during its upcoming refurbishment during which it acquired economy green....

[w124bob]

I came across a picture of D123 with a fresh coat economy green, the roof appeared to not have been painted as it was filthy. The picture appears in Rail Portfolio 4 The Peaks. They were after all "economy" repaints. 

[andyman7]

17 minutes ago, w124bob said:

I came across a picture of D123 with a fresh coat economy green, the roof appeared to not have been painted as it was filthy. The picture appears in Rail Portfolio 4 The Peaks. They were after all "economy" repaints. 

Indeed for practical purposes it barely matters what the roof is painted because in service whether green or blue era the roof colour is inevitably 'thick grime'

[JDW]

On 10/06/2021 at 00:22, br2975 said:

 

Well the roof appears (dirty) grey in this image.

.

Photographer unknown.

 

Interesting dirt marks on the shed wall in the background too - presumably locos were often started up or left running in that same location!

[w124bob]

That shed road was used for a specific purpose, I only went to Toton a half dozen times in the 5 years I was based at Coalville ('79 to '83) but I seem to recall seeing heavy(underframe) cleaning being done.