Project 65033 - A 3D printed LNER J21

[Paul_sterling]

Hi Folks,

Though I have not posted recently, I have been somewhat busy. I've gone into production with the LH&JC No5 shells, as well as its associated classmates at the LH&JC, and also have produced NCB "Meteor" an early loco at the NYMR. (message me if interested in either)

 

IMG_20210501_110541_resized_20210504_015402446 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

IMG_20210501_110530_resized_20210504_015400461 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

The next project is one I've decided to do as I don't think any of the mainstream manufacturers seem willing to do it, its been asked about for years, and yet, to the best of my knowledge, is still not in the pipeline. So on receipt of Isinglass drawings, away we go.

 

IMG_20210428_112948_resized_20210504_015359356 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

IMG_20210428_164607_resized_20210504_015356087 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

Initially, this was designed to fit on a J15 chassis, the spacings being sufficiently close that it would still produce a largely accurate model, wheel dia close enough to suggest its wheels had been turned a couple of times, and spacings on the model very close also.

However, the motor framework is just too visible for me, the blue you can see under the boiler. so although otherwise feasible, I've decided against the J15.


The alternative is as follows.

IMG_20210430_091930_resized_20210504_015357257 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

This is using a Bachmann SE&CR C-class, which is dead on for wheelbase and measured wheel dia. the motor-gearbox will necessitate an overly long backhead, but otherwise offers an overall better packaging solution.

 

IMG_20210504_134355_resized_20210504_015354824 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

Even the Bachmann tender chassis is a viable solution, being only slightly long on wheelbase, but correct on overall length.

I'm hoping to get this one to an initial print stage later this week.


65033, like many preserved engines, is a potential trap for detail. She has a 67A boiler (and safety valve arrangement), but 67/67b smokebox. these details aren't too bad to deal with, as I can create the alternative "bodies" within CAD in order to make any combination without too much trouble, so long as a purchaser (should I be lucky enough to get any) has done their own research on the combination required, as my own will be 65033.

Thanks, Paul.

[Paul_sterling]

For those watching this thread, does anyone have a detailed (dimensioned) drawing of the J21 smokebox doors please? I'd ideally like the current 65033 door dimensions, but as I'll also like to offer the shell as backdate-able, other styles may be welcome too.

 

Thanks. Paul. 

 

 

[Paul_sterling]

A little more work over the last few days.

 

Mostly detail work, time consuming etc etc. The loco is mostly there now, but there is still much to do on the tender, likely to take as long as a loco normally would to cad up in itself. 

 

 

[MarkC]

Great job, Paul. This one deserves to do really well. As you say, the J21 is a regular "asked for" model, and the real thing saw service all across the ex-NER area on both goods and passenger trains - and were long lived too.

 

Mark

[Paul_sterling]

Hi Folks, 

 

Continued progress.

 

20210510-1 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

The support framework (orange) has been designed. It used exactly the same methods as I have done previously, knife edges which can be easily twisted off post print, but gives a uniform support to the running plate, so it prints straight, even when positioned at an angle. 

 

20210510-2 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

Reversing lever, and Westinghouse pump added. the latter isn't always a feature of 65033, so I modelled it in a separate body that can be omitted from the STL, or chopped off the print. 

 

20210510-3 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

Cab interior, its crude, and includes some worked compromises in order to cover the bigger wheel pockets. 

Thanks, Paul. 

[Paul_sterling]

On 07/05/2021 at 15:46, MarkC said:

Great job, Paul. This one deserves to do really well. As you say, the J21 is a regular "asked for" model, and the real thing saw service all across the ex-NER area on both goods and passenger trains - and were long lived too.

 

Mark

 

Thanks Mark!

 

I'm hoping all being well, to round out the CAD work on this one in the next two weeks, and get onto printing finished examples. 

 

A little trick to decide on a "bog standard" 67 / 67A / 67B / 70 variant, as there was masses of combinations of valves, boilers, valve covers, Westinghouse pumps/no, lubricators, snifting valve, boiler feed etc. I can't do every permutation, but I will tryand do some common ones, if more knowledgeable people than myself can advise and guide. 

 

Paul. 

[MarkC]

Was there such a thing as a "bog standard" J21? From memory, looking at Yeadon (I don't have my copy to hand) I was struck by the variety of permutations there were. It's a minefield, I suspect.

 

Looking forward to seeing your first prints though.

 

Mark

[Paul_sterling]

5 minutes ago, David jennings said:

Hi

be very interested in one of these if you make them available ? 
 

ps - is there somewhere I can find out about the LH&JC locos? 
 

cheers

Dave 

 

Hi Dave, 

 

Yes that'll be no problem, it shouldn't be long before I can make the J21 available for sale, within a month I think. 

 

for the real locos, 

http://www.lambtonlocomotivestrust.co.uk/

 

My design and build of No.5

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13541

 

and 29 (including the 0-6-0 version of 29)

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13199

 

Thanks, Paul. 

[Paul_sterling]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

Was there such a thing as a "bog standard" J21? From memory, looking at Yeadon (I don't have my copy to hand) I was struck by the variety of permutations there were. It's a minefield, I suspect.

 

Looking forward to seeing your first prints though.

 

Mark

 

I agree Mark, almost impractical to make a standard one. I wonder if this is the root cause for the manufacturers avoiding them?

 

I'd probably be able to do a limited range, I might just commit to two or three basic profiles, i.e. 67, 67A and 67B in their most standard format and leave it at that. as although having CAD that can be switch easily is one thing, each permutation then has to be structured and sliced for the printer. 

 

Paul. 

[MarkC]

21 minutes ago, Paul_sterling said:

 

I agree Mark, almost impractical to make a standard one. I wonder if this is the root cause for the manufacturers avoiding them?

 

I'd probably be able to do a limited range, I might just commit to two or three basic profiles, i.e. 67, 67A and 67B in their most standard format and leave it at that. as although having CAD that can be switch easily is one thing, each permutation then has to be structured and sliced for the printer. 

 

Paul. 

I don't think so, Paul. There's a variety of Black 5s, for example, but the manufacturers don't seem bothered. I think it's more likely that in the past, the J21 hasn't been seen as, well, 'sexy', for want of a better word.

 

Mark

[Paul_sterling]

51 minutes ago, MarkC said:

I don't think so, Paul. There's a variety of Black 5s, for example, but the manufacturers don't seem bothered. I think it's more likely that in the past, the J21 hasn't been seen as, well, 'sexy', for want of a better word.

 

Mark

Good point, though with the black fives, much as I love them, they were from a different level of detail expectations, now I think there would be a lot more demand of what had to be on a particular model. I think, but don't quote me on it, but Hornby were selective in the locos of that class that they've done, to avoid particular detail issues, such as the roller bearing examples with their longer wheelbase?

 

But yes I agree, in general terms, the J21 probably doesn't have the mass appeal (sexiness) of the Pacifics. 

Cheers. 

Paul. 

[Paul_sterling]

Last night I printed the latest CAD, I.e. the pictures shown yesterday, and I'm quite happy!

The C-class chassis has a slight visual defect when assembled, the bottom edge of the firebox makes the model look like its sitting high at the rear, but checking with the very near, its perfectly level. Optical illusions! 

I use Elegoo water washable black for printing usually, as its easy to clean and details nicely, but its hopeless for photographs! I'll remember to use Siraya Tech Grey for future picture taking prints. 

IMG_20210511_080956 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

IMG_20210511_081003 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

IMG_20210511_081101 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

IMG_20210511_083955 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

IMG_20210511_084005 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

 

Thanks, Paul. 
 

[Paul_sterling]

The second print gave me some area swhere I wanted to make changes to the shell, particularly where the boiler meets the front of the motor-gearbox. the pocked has been increased by 0.25mm, and I've put a number of ribs inside as well to improve the stiffness of the boiler. If this displays any substantial amount of curing warpage, I'll probably do what I did on meteor and No.5, and put some horizontal struts in that will stay in place until curing is complete, then be cut out carefully. 

 

 

 

 

The tender has seen a significant amount of work as well. Its initial print and fit trial worked well, very little required in terms of clearance, other than moving one of the internal pockets back an additional 0.5mm so that the tender has some fore and aft movement for assembly, controlled after that by the fixing screws, which use the original holes in the tender base. 

 

 

 

 

There has been a few compromises on the tender in terms of the coal space, a large boxing has been kept in order to retain the tenders capacity for DCC and DCC sound. A good load of coal and this shouldn't be an issue, something like a Margate manufacturer used to do to hide its massive tender motors. 

 

 

 

 

I still intend to detail the backhead, but that won't have a major impact on the engineering of the rest of the loco. 

 

 

Thanks, Paul. 

[Paul_sterling]

Here is a couple of structure shots for those interested in how the prints are formed.

 

20210514-11 

 

20210514-12

 

It can be seen that the sacrificial framework has a direct, and very strong support structure below it, I only use ligter, ball ended support structure where the supports touch the model directly. It speeds up the clean up time, and also gives me a wider handling window. 

 

Thanks, Paul. 

[Paul_sterling]

T'was a very exciting weekend!

I changed the printer over to grey resin, and sliced the latest version of the files (well, almost latest, I'd made some changes afterwards, but still wanted to see the outcome). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did record a short video too, and will link it once uploaded.

Overall, there was a couple of minor areas to change, the middle splashers need a little extra inboard clearance, and the tender a couple of internal mods. I've also decided to remove the steps from the tender, as they were fitted straight to the frames on the original J21's, so I can't really offer that in this case, and the step frames just don't blend in. 

Another print tonight, and I reckon that (unless some disaster happens in the print) should be somewhere near. 

 

Thanks, Paul. 

[Lambton58]

That's looking very good.  I'm definitely interested.

 

Ralph

Lambton58

[Paul_sterling]

13 hours ago, Lambton58 said:

That's looking very good.  I'm definitely interested.

 

Ralph

Lambton58

 

Thanks Ralph, I've got a few updates to publish, which shouldn't be long now. But I have started producing to order now, so if you, or any other followers wish to order one, by all means drop me a message to my inbox. Hopefully anyone who's bought from me in the past can testify as to the prints quality. 

 

Thanks, Paul.

[Paul_sterling]

 

 

Hi folks. This is a vid of the prototype trundling around my bairns layout, the video quality seems very poor on YouTube compared to how it is on the phone. 

 

I'll add some more pics shortly of the latest (production) print. 

 

Paul

[Paul_sterling]

The pics I've attached are of the current iteration of the J21. This is based on 65033, which is presently a bit of a mongrel in terms of boiler, smoke box, valves etc.

 

Im aiming to produce a shell of at least one of the formations these engines had in their earlier lives, and possibly a superheated variant too. 

 

Thanks. Paul

[Paul_sterling]

I've all but finished the CAD work now, well nothing that impacts on the look of the loco, more down to ease and efficiency of print, to keep material use down, and improve reliability. 

 

 

 

To get the rivet heads and bolt heads to show/print to size, I've had to model them longer than dimension, this is slightly counter intuitive because normally, resin prints display light bleed, and over-sizing on peripheral edges, but with very small sections, this is countered by the shrinkage of the resin on curing. Of course we're talking about bolt heads around 0.4mm across the flats, they are small!

 

 

The westinghouse pump is deliberately modelled in a separate CAD body, so it can be turned on or off. The same will go for the limited run of early NER and later LNER C/C1 class and J21's that I'm considering a run of, in respect of their boiler, smokebox, and valve arrangements. 

 

 

 

The same as the loco, the intention is to add the third coal rail in as an option as well. 

 

 

Those little black marks on the prints are just deposits from the cleaning station, as the last resin it washed was Elegoo water washable black, which leaves little specks, needed a flush out, and did sop after this print finished. 

 

 

 

Like the rest of the loco, the cab underwent LOADS of changes, but its too many for me to undertake economically, and once a crew is in there, the detail isn't visible anyway!

 

 

 

Though I don't want to use this thread as a plug, nevertheless, these shells are now available for sale, please get in touch if you would like to order one. 

 

EDIT - just to add, at the stage at which these pics were taken, no special treatment has been given to the shell, no sanding, no primer, nothing, that is as printed, other than threading the bosses where the screws go through to fix it onto the chassis. 

 

Thanks, Paul.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Paul_sterling

[Paul_sterling]

So I've been working on the 67A superheated version. The plan is to make two limited batches of 67A boilered Locos, and a 67/67B Piston Valve engine. 

 

67A is the easiest, and I've tackled that first, it has no boiler side feed, dome, and boiler bands are as 65033, so the only change (which makes it sound easier than it actually was) is to bring the front face of the smokebox forward, same for the chimney, and a new valve cover on the front. A Gresley Snifting valve has been added, but this can be cut off for earlier version of the 67A, or saturated variants. Vac pipes extended to match the position of the chimney/blast pipe. 

 

67/67B is a little more difficult, the front of the Piston valves needs to be modelled, boiler side feed on LH side, and a  rather attractive safety valve bonnet. 

 

I am deliberately avoiding the Dia70 loco for now. I can't do too many at once, and I don't think there is sufficient a market to cover so many versions of the J21, simply put, whilst many will likely want 65033, for every minor detail permutation I've got to completely reslice and support the CAD, which takes time, patience, and yet more file management. Tender to Loco combinations isn't so bad, as its swapping in and out on Chitubox, but still time consuming, and first and foremost, I make these models because I want them myself, as opposed to choosing deliberately marketable products. But we'll see. 

Thanks, Paul.

[Skinnylinny]

That's looking rather fantastic! May I ask what dimensions you use for your running-plate-edge knife-edge supports? It seems you've found the answer to that lumpy bottom edge problem that I've had on all my bodyshell prints. It also looks like it avoids the problem of small edges pulling away from the supports on things like footsteps and the corners of bufferbeams etc.

[Paul_sterling]

37 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

That's looking rather fantastic! May I ask what dimensions you use for your running-plate-edge knife-edge supports? It seems you've found the answer to that lumpy bottom edge problem that I've had on all my bodyshell prints. It also looks like it avoids the problem of small edges pulling away from the supports on things like footsteps and the corners of bufferbeams etc.

 

The dimensions aren't all that crucial, but for what its worth, a 2.5mm square section, and a 2.5mm wide by 3mm tall isosceles triangle, the tip of which dips into the part by 0.25mm. You'll be able to tune that to the application, a shallower triangle may help with tear off. 

 

Thanks, Paul.. 

[Skinnylinny]

Thanks, Paul, that's fantastic. I'll give that a try this evening on my LB&SCR B1. (I couldn't resist giving it a paint job in Fusion!)



Edit to add: The running plate has come out beautifully, but I need to print the backhead separately as trying to support the various details inside the cab failed miserably!
 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Skinnylinny

[Paul_sterling]

 

This is why RCTS books are dangerous!

I bought an N9 some time back, a Nu-cast (I think), and it had a number of issues, largely that it would not go around anything less than a 60" curve. I set to and resolved a lot of the gripes, but its still a wonkey shell, with shall we say poor engineering underneath. I know with my skills I'll not make a better job with a whitemetal kit, but I do stand a chance with CAD, well sort of.

 

20210526-2 

J21 is about as complete as I wish it to be (beyond trial prints of the intended Dia 67A and Dia 67B variants. The NER N / LNER N9 uses the same boiler, and is all but identical from front buffer to cab (tanks excepted) to a J21, so here we go. Isinglass doesn't have drawings for the N9/N10, but I'm reasonably confident I've got enough from the J21 drawing that it'll still be accurate.

I am considering, only considering, at this stage, using the C-class chassis once more, as the powerplant, which would free up a set of tender frames to be used on a potential J25, which in itself would be re-engineered from the J21 CAD, and using a Bachmann Jinty 3F donor to get closer to correct wheel dia. This is early days, and could frankly be pie in the sky, but I'll at least look into it. rear truck at present, will be a derivative of the Bachmann 56xx rear truck, but set to slide only.

Paul.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Paul_sterling