ICI Ltd Alkali Division, Buxton Non Pool 5 Plank wagons

[46444]

Recently I was given an old Airfix 5 Plank ICI Ltd Alkali Division wagon. I realise this livery has been applied to a LMS design so is not totally accurate. 

 

However, I have put a Ratio 10ft RCH chassis under the wagon body. Again perhaps not accurate. 

 

In Don Rowlands Twighlight of the Goods a prototype of one these ICI wagons is caputered at Niddrie in 1962.

 

Does anyone know the prototype history of these wagons and their workings?.. 

 

Thanks in advance.....

Mark 

Edited May 8, 2021 by 46444

[Andy Hayter]

I cannot give chapter and verse but with Buxton as the home location it is most likely that this was limestone traffic to Runcorn or one of the other Cheshire sites for the production of soda ash - Sodium Carbonate.

[Compound2632]

B. Hudson, Through Limestone Hills (OPC, 1989) has a chapter on the limestone quarrying industry around Buxton. Your wagon, L3110, nominally represents one of a batch of 200 wagons supplied by the Gloucester RC&W Co in 1937, numbered 3000-3199 and, according to Hudson, lettered "ICI (Lime) Ltd" - he reproduces a photo of L3027 as repainted after 1938, lettered in much the same style as the model but with "ICI Ltd" only one plank high and "LIME DIVISION" in lieu of "ALKALI DIVISION". Other detail differences include off-white corner plates and a fixed sheet bar. Of course it's to the RCH specification for 16'6"-long mineral wagons rather than the RCH specification for 17'6" merchandise wagons per the model, but you're already aware of that. The Oxford Rail ICI wagon, nominally 3035 in the original livery, is a better representation.

 

Hudson says these wagons were bought for "the general market" which I take to mean, not for a specific circuit. He lists various customers in the mid-30s, in Birmingham, Stoke, South Yorkshire, and Scotland, as well as export via Liverpool. There is no mention of ICI Alkali Division as such. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[markw]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

B. Hudson, Through Limestone Hills (OPC, 1989) has a chapter on the limestone quarrying industry around Buxton. Your wagon, L3110, nominally represents one of a batch of 200 wagons supplied by the Gloucester RC&W Co in 1937, numbered 3000-3199 and, according to Hudson, lettered "ICI (Lime) Ltd" - he reproduces a photo of L3027 as repainted after 1938, lettered in much the same style as the model but with "ICI Ltd" only one plank high and "LIME DIVISION" in lieu of "ALKALI DIVISION". Other detail differences include off-white corner plates and a fixed sheet bar. Of course it's to the RCH specification for 16'6"-long mineral wagons rather than the RCH specification for 17'6" merchandise wagons per the model, but you're already aware of that. The Oxford Rail ICI wagon, nominally 3035 in the original livery, is a better representation.

 

Hudson says these wagons were bought for "the general market" which I take to mean, not for a specific circuit. He lists various customers in the mid-30s, in Birmingham, Stoke, South Yorkshire, and Scotland, as well as export via Liverpool. There is no mention of ICI Alkali Division as such. 

The sheet bar is not fixed but removable see L3202 with one end resting on the wagon floor.

http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/ogauge/Dapol/dapolwagons/towerici/index.htm
Another difference is the additional horizontal strapping on the door.

 

[Fat Controller]

10 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

I cannot give chapter and verse but with Buxton as the home location it is most likely that this was limestone traffic to Runcorn or one of the other Cheshire sites for the production of soda ash - Sodium Carbonate.

Another big market for burnt lime is in water-treatment plants, I believe.

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, markw said:

The sheet bar is not fixed but removable see L3202 with one end resting on the wagon floor.

http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/ogauge/Dapol/dapolwagons/towerici/index.htm
Another difference is the additional horizontal strapping on the door.

 

 

Yes, L3202 has the same sheet bar arrangement as L3027 - the photo shows clearly that the timber sheet rail could be demounted from the timber tongues at each end, which wasn't apparent from the photo of L3027. What I was trying to convey was that it's not the sort of sheet bar that is pivoted at the ends and can be dropped down to one side.

 

I note that a couple of the prototype photos there show the "ALKALI DIVISION" lettering.

 

The Airfix 00 wagon is too long; I'm fairly sure the Dapol 0 gauge wagon is too short, being based on a pre-1923 RCH type!

[Andy Hayter]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

B. Hudson, Through Limestone Hills (OPC, 1989) has a chapter on the limestone quarrying industry around Buxton. Your wagon, L3110, nominally represents one of a batch of 200 wagons supplied by the Gloucester RC&W Co in 1937, numbered 3000-3199 and, according to Hudson, lettered "ICI (Lime) Ltd" - he reproduces a photo of L3027 as repainted after 1938, lettered in much the same style as the model but with "ICI Ltd" only one plank high and "LIME DIVISION" in lieu of "ALKALI DIVISION". Other detail differences include off-white corner plates and a fixed sheet bar. Of course it's to the RCH specification for 16'6"-long mineral wagons rather than the RCH specification for 17'6" merchandise wagons per the model, but you're already aware of that. The Oxford Rail ICI wagon, nominally 3035 in the original livery, is a better representation.

 

Hudson says these wagons were bought for "the general market" which I take to mean, not for a specific circuit. He lists various customers in the mid-30s, in Birmingham, Stoke, South Yorkshire, and Scotland, as well as export via Liverpool. There is no mention of ICI Alkali Division as such. 

 

The different labelling of the wagons might well result from the frequent restructuring/renaming of the various ICI divisions( Brunner Mond; Mond Division; Alkali Division etc.*) .   For example It could be important to ensure / check if a particular livery/naming is appropriate for the period.

 

* I have also found Salt division which later joined Alkali division but I am unsure if this at any time related to the Buxton operation.

 

The Birmingham deliveries are quite probably to the Chance and Hunt Oldbury or Wednesbury plants.  C&H retained their names for most of their existence but were incorporated into ICI in the 1920s.  

 

With that sort of complexity it is quite possible that sales that look to be to independent companies are in fact internal sales.  I am sure however that some sales will have been to independent companies.   

 

It is also worth mentioning that limestone is used as a flux for iron and steel production, so they would be other potential customers.

[46444]

Many thanks to the four of you for the helpful and indepth replies. 

 

I had forgotten about the Oxford version of these wagons in the earlier livery. Certainly a more accurate representation than the Airfix LMS open take on the livery. 

 

The photos on Tower Models site are useful and the sheet bar can be seen in the Rowland photo of L3102 I have dated 1962. As Compound mentions the Airfix wagon is numbered L3110. 

 

It would be a suitable future release for Oxford Rail in the later livery as per the Tower Models versions. Again not totally accurate but a fair representation. 

 

Thanks once again for all your replies. 

 

Cheers, 

 

Mark 

Edited May 9, 2021 by 46444

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

The Birmingham deliveries are quite probably to the Chance and Hunt Oldbury or Wednesbury plants.  C&H retained their names for most of their existence but were incorporated into ICI in the 1920s.  

 

The firms Hudson lists are Albright & Wilson, of Oldbury, and the Lifford Chemical Co., both chemical firms. (As a native of Shakespeare's county I'm not happy with both Hudson and yourself for mistaking the Black Country towns of Oldbury or Wednesbury for the Warwickshire metropolis - they were in Shropshire and Staffordshire respectively.)

 

47 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

It is also worth mentioning that limestone is used as a flux for iron and steel production, so they would be other potential customers.

 

Hudson lists Steel, Peech & Tozer, Rotherham; Hadfields, Sheffield; Staveley Coal & Iron Co.; Shelton Iron & Steel Co., Stoke. Other Stoke customers were in the pottery and china business. Other firms he gives (I was simplifying greatly) are Bowarters for paper making; London Brick Co.; Penketh Tannery, Birkenhead; and Pumpherston Oil. Co., Mussleburgh.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[Andy Hayter]

Thank you for correcting my poor knowledge of Midland politics.  I will confess a void the stretches from the Welsh borders to the GCR London connection and from Nantwich to Hereford.  All bits in between are the Midlands - either Coventry or Brum!  

 

I find Hudson's list of customers incredible since it excludes - or seems to - all internal sales and I wonder  if his sources have only thrown up external sales.  Knowing ICI systems (as I did) that might be entirely understandable.  "Internal" sales being handled differently to external.

 

Why would they take over the limestone quarries if not for internal use?  After all they were a chemical company not  mining one.  Even Boulby Potash mine, which was built on ICI demands was to boost their Fertiliser business which in turn was built around ammonia fertilisers.  

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I find Hudson's list of customers incredible since it excludes - or seems to - all internal sales and I wonder  if his sources have only thrown up external sales.  Knowing ICI systems (as I did) that might be entirely understandable.  "Internal" sales being handled differently to external.

 

Why would they take over the limestone quarries if not for internal use?  After all they were a chemical company not  mining one.  Even Boulby Potash mine, which was built on ICI demands was to boost their Fertiliser business which in turn was built around ammonia fertilisers.  

 

I think that may be accounted for in Hudson's discussion of the 152 bogie hopper wagons built by Chas Roberts between 1936 and 1953, which he says were obtained "in an attempt to increase the efficiency of its own [ICI's] traffic" to Winnington (Cheshire).

[pharrc20]

The ICI 5 plank wagons were also used on a block trainload working of limestone to the Middlewich works as well as the 23ton bogie hoppers were too large to be handled at this works. So they used the wooden open wagons on this traffic until sometime in the mid-1960s, after which many of the wagons were stored then later scrapped in the old works sidings just to the north of Great Rocks Jn. I have several photos of the wagons and them being hauled in a block trainload too.

 

The Airfix version was later re-released by Hornby and has appeared in their range over the years, Bachmann also produced a more accurate version, then the Oxford Rail one is same again more accurate. 

 

Cheers Paul