Prototype practice in Lampeter

[The Stationmaster]

Moving on I'll look next at Passenger Rated traffic before starting to consider what we might glean about the total traffic passing through Lampeter.

 

Passenger Rated traffic was stuff charged on separate scales of changrges from those applicable to Goods Rated traffic and although it might need a bit of lateral thinking was basically stuff which could be conveyed by passenger.  Obviously parcels immediately come to mind, newspapers aren't difficult to envisage as would be things ;like boxes of fish and various perishable goods t covering all sorts of things from cut flowers to dead rabbits being despatched to market.  Mail traffic was also in this category although it was charged under various contracts between the Railways/BR and the Post Office one notable feature being the 1928 Letter Mail Contract which was still in force into the 1970s.  Less obviously - when you think in terms of bulk tank wagons - milk was passenger rated, owing that position to the days when it passed in churns loaded to passenger etc trains and similarly in soem cases vehicles conveyed on flat wagons and animals transported in horse boxes or premium cattle/calf vehicles were also passenger rated.

 

The latter areas lead us to what was known as NPCCS - Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock - which meant basically vehicles equipped with the necessary brake system and capable of sufficiently high speeds to run coupled to a passenger train although gradually over the years various restrictions of speed were imposed on many such vehicles.  many such vehicles also had steam pipes fitted in the heating period to enable them to be marshalled in front of passenger vehicles in a train.   Such vehicles, and others, when attached to a passenger train, were known as 'tail traffic' (whether or not they were behind or ahead of the passenger vehicles in the train).    

 

As far Lampeter is concerned it would in many ways have been a microcosm of Passenger Rated traffic with one big exception - milk.  For most other things the traffic would be loaded in the Brakevan (aka Guard's Van) of a passenger train - boxes of fish maybe, parcels, and - stowed separately under a degree of security - Letter Mail (while Parcel Post went in with all the other stuff).  Newspapers for a place like Lampeter would be no more than a couple of small bundles.  Inwards traffic would no doubt be quite varied but any outwards stuff would depend on any industry/business in the area so agricultural produce of various sorts might well have figured.

 

All the parcels traffic except Letter Mail would be handled by railway station staff, Letter Mail was handled by a Postman and officially railway staff were not permitted to handle it.  thus a post van or hand barrow would be a regular sight at the station at certain times of day.  Under the 1928 Contract the Post Office was legally entitled to load Letter Mail to any passenger train. and in the 1970s  I knew one Royal Mail Inspector whose ambition was to load a bag of Letter Mail to the Royal Train - he never succeeded but he reckoned the Contract legally entitled him to do so.

 

As far as we've got so far all of this traffic, except the mails would usually pass through the station's parcels office although it is qwuite likely taht if there was any outwards traffic arriving at teh station in bulk it would go immediately onto trolleys to be subsequently taken to the train (or trains) on its arreival.  Any anil mals - most likely riding horses or prize cattle would be dealt with at the loading bank by the Up Siding although it wasn't k unknown at some stations for horses such as hunters to be walked across the station platform.

 

From what I've said so far you'll hopefully have concluded that - just like goods traffic all of these traffics could be handled under collected, delivered, collected and delivered, or station-to station rates.  However unlike goods traffic one feature of parcels traffic was that it could be specifically  consigned as 'To Be Called For'  TBCF) being held in the parcels office until the consignee came to collect it (and possibly even have to pay what were known as 'On Charges' which were apploed to some categories of TBCF traffic.  Usually a consignee wouldn't be advised (by postcard) of the arrival of their packages until a day or two after arrival as most customers using the service would know when their goods were despatched and hence when they were likely to arrive or they would 'phone the station to ask if the goods had arrived.

 

In addition there were, like goods traffic all sorts of sub-divisions for the charges for various types of traffic  plus parcels traffic was divided into categories under what was known as 'Ledger Labels' (LL) although most of these had vanished by the mid 1960s except for LL6 which applied to cut flowers (usually packed in boxes.  The system was in many respects an accountancy requirement and when the daily parcels balance sheet was put together each Ledger Label was listed and total;led separately - which was a confounded nuisance even when there was only one still in use!  One thing which was probably fairly uncommon at Lampeter was Passenger's Luggage in Advance (PLA) a system which allowed people to despatch their holiday etc luggage in advance of their train journey.  it too came in the usual collected (CL), delivered (DL) and collected and delivered (PLA_ categories.  a seaside resorts in teh holo iday sease omn it could be in very large quantities oftenmmn requiring a train to convey an additional van purely to hold the luggage being forwarded in this fashion.

 

The really obvious Passenger Rated traffic at Lampeter - although not loaded there but at nearby stations and marshalled at Lampeter aas seen in the video upthread was milk in bulk tankcars - known on the Western as 'Miltas'.  As milk had originally been conveyed in churns loaded to passenger trains or vans attached to passenger trains it made sense that it remained a passenger rated traffic and in any case it meant that it usually got a quicker and smoother transit.  in fact as I mentioned previously milk tanks were not permitted to be attached to freight trains on the western unless special authority had been issued for that to be done - most liklely in order to. get empty cars to places where they were needed I would expect (but someone might nknow more).  Milk. was od  f course the railway survived in the area for some years after the passenger trains had been withdrawn.

 

Right now the $64,000  uqestion.  what traffics were ax ctually handled at Lampeter.  The vest lead would probably come from study of any local directories listing traders although if it follows the usual format the Middleton Press book will give some total tonnages.  As far as inwards traffic (if all sorts_ is considered goods smalls would probably about to a handful of vans arriving on most days - that depends to some extent on teh size of the cartage area and of course the presence of any businesses.  Coal would also be an inevitable inwards traffic but by eyond that we really need local knowledge.   Agricultural machinery of various sorts is a strong probability as is - in post-war years - a possibility of artificial fertiliser (in sacks) and there might occasionally be things like building materials although most of them would be obtained relatively locally.  but it really does need some research into local business directories to get a firmer ifdea of what would be likely.

 

The same can of course be said for passenger rated traffics - mails and newspapers are inevitable although in fairly small quantities and there probably was some general parcels traffic plus no doubt occasional arrivals of prize cattle.  Some clues about traffic might come from the timetables but local knowledge is the thing that would really help.  right taht's what we know of the traffic and how it was organised - our next step is to look at how it got to, or left Lampeter, i.e. the train service.

[Harlequin]

Here's a small down-payment on the $64,000...

 

In 1936-37 (and probably for many years before and after) a Mr. D. Gwynne Williams, Coal, Lime, Brick & Artificial Manure Merchant also Haulage Contractor, operated from the Station Yard.

 

See original invoice here:

https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/471627

 

(Terms - Cash on Delivery)

 

[Michael Hodgson]

34 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Mr. D. Gwynne Williams, Coal, Lime, Brick & Artificial Manure Merchant also Haulage Contractor, operated from the Station Yard.

 

I had to look that up.  I know what real manure is of course, and no doubt there would be plenty available locally so no need for it to be imported into West Wales.  Artificial manure is apparently what in my ignorance I would call fertiliser which these days I might get from a garden centre or soil improver  which is how the local recycling centre describes stuff they produce and you bag up yourself.  So presumably the stuff he was flogging would come from some chemical factory - would that be already bagged up, or would it be bulk wagonloads?   

 

As for bricks, would be be getting wagons of loose bricks from somewhere like Fletton (but presumably rather closer) and manually stacking them in the yard?  No Palbricks in the 1930s.  5-plank opens?

[Fat Controller]

In the 1960s, and probably earlier, ICI (and other feed and fertiliser producers) would organise block trains to Carmarthen, where they would be split into sections for the surviving branches. The load would be pre-ordered at a discount, and the farmers would collect it direct from the station yards. There would be a flurry of activity for a couple of days, then the vans would go back to Severn Beach, and there'd be a couple of 16-tonners, half-full of coal, left. The vehicles would be a sight to see; first-series Land Rovers, old tractors and trailers...

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Some further googling (when I should really be working) found this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/14243894766/

 

Too many interesting things in this photo to list (!) but you can see the goods connection separate from the loop, you can see the road crossing and notice that the Down Advanced Starter signal is on the opposite side from normal, presumably because there's not enough clearance for it on the yard side. Clark's map shows it to be in advance of (beyond) the road crossing so it's not doing anything to protect the crossing.

 

What caught my eye was the Wickham trolley stored right up against the box.  The huts on the opposite side of the line would be PW tools etc?  The containers outside those huts are presumably not the BRSA's empties but lubricants or fuels?

[ejstubbs]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The signalling was clearly centralised onto a newly built GWR signal box at the north end of the Up platform as that does not appear in photos from the turn of the century and for some years thereafter.

 

As I think I mentioned before, Holden's track plan shows the signal box at the south end of the down platform.  However, he does add a note saying: The signal box was later moved from the position shown in this plan.  Which does strongly suggest that his plan is based on the station as it was first built.

Edited June 4, 2021 by ejstubbs

[The Stationmaster]

Timetables - the good news.  As ever Micael Clemens can be a great friend to those in need and his site contains the fllowing useful gems for the route -

 

GWR Service TT , Section 9, May 1911. the GWR called Working Timetables (WTTS)  Service Timetable (STTs)

BR WR STT  Section 10, Sept 1949

BR WR WTT Cardiff, Swansea, Neyland, and Fishguard District Freight Trains September 1961. there os also a version from 1963 on the site.

 

ll are downloadable  from -

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/article/working-timetables/553

 

So nothing post 1949 for the passenger service but so far as this route is concernedmy own collection (not scanned) includes the 1952 and 1954 winter public books plus various early 1960s public books, the 1929 public book and 1938 and 1947 STTs. 

 

I'll come back to this sort of stuff later but first I happen to have another useful document in the form of the 1939 Sectional Appendix to the Section 10 STT which is - as these things always are - source of some useful bits & pieces.    But note - it is for 1939

For a start Aberayroon Jcn Signal Box had been abolished by then but the south end loop points at Lampeter were worked bya ground frame (although later photos indicate that they were at some time connected to the signal box).

The crossing loop at Lampeter could accommodate 59 wagons (assuming 20 feet per wagon) which would be plus loco and brakevan) .  But this was considerably in excess of the crossing loop capacity at all other stations on the route and the effective limit between Carmarthen and Lampeter would be 36 wagons set by the loop capacity al Llanpumpsaint (some loops were shorter than that but I've only taken notice of the important ones.  North of Lampeter the effective limit was 20-25 wagons only.

A Signal Dept Lineman was based at Lampeter so would have needed to be accommodated in a building somewhere there.

re-railing ramps were kept at the North End ground frame.

The only water column was at the south end of the Up Platform

There was definitely no road level crossing listed at Lampeter.

There was no token exchange apparatus at Lampeter

 

And interestingly there were Instructions about what was to be done in respect of forwarding v wagons containing cattle off the Newcastle Emlyn brnach for stations between Pencader and Aberystwyth or beyond the latter.

 

 

 

A

[Nevermakeit]

49 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

In the 1960s, and probably earlier, ICI (and other feed and fertiliser producers) would organise block trains to Carmarthen, where they would be split into sections for the surviving branches. The load would be pre-ordered at a discount, and the farmers would collect it direct from the station yards. There would be a flurry of activity for a couple of days, then the vans would go back to Severn Beach, and there'd be a couple of 16-tonners, half-full of coal, left. The vehicles would be a sight to see; first-series Land Rovers, old tractors and trailers...

So the fertiliser would come in vans, in sacks or loose? 

[Nevermakeit]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Here's a small down-payment on the $64,000...

 

In 1936-37 (and probably for many years before and after) a Mr. D. Gwynne Williams, Coal, Lime, Brick & Artificial Manure Merchant also Haulage Contractor, operated from the Station Yard.

 

See original invoice here:

https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/471627

 

(Terms - Cash on Delivery)

 

I assume he would have a hut in the yard, rather than any accommodation in the goods shed or station? 

[Nevermakeit]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

A Signal Dept Lineman was based at Lampeter so would have needed to be accommodated in a building somewhere there.

re-railing ramps were kept at the North End ground frame.

Is the Signal Dept Lineman different from the person operating the signal box? What are re-railing ramps on a full-size railway? Thanks for the information about the timetables. 

[Michael Hodgson]

S&T Lineman is the bloke the signalman calls when stuff breaks down.  He doesn't go fix it himself - apart from not having the skills or tools, he is still needed at his post and is probably busier than normal.  He is using emergency procedures like pilotman working if the block isn't working, flags if he can't clear a signal, clamping points by hand etc.

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, Nevermakeit said:

So the fertiliser would come in vans, in sacks or loose? 

In sacks; loose would be too hard to handle.

As well as fertiliser, it was common to treat (top-dress) grassland with ground-up 'basic' slag from steelworks.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Nevermakeit said:

Is the Signal Dept Lineman different from the person operating the signal box? What are re-railing ramps on a full-size railway? Thanks for the information about the timetables. 

I suspect the Lineman was accommodated in one of the huts across the line opposite the signal box although the one with grease barrels outside would have been for the Permanent Way gang.

 

Re-railing ramps were very ungainly and heavy pieces of metal that formed a sort of tapered channel.  The link below shows a modern version.  anybody who was worth their salt when it came to re-railing wagons without calling ina breakdown gang avoided using them like the plague because they often led to damage with broken rail chairs plus they were very heavy to get into position.   If you were into d-i-y re-railing (in the years before it was banned) it was far simpler to use old bits of sleeper (not rotten) and other timber and some decent pieces of plate steel as you could then pack and arrange stuff to suit what was on the ground and timber would crush instead of breaking what was underneath it.  I never came across a breakdown gang daft enough to use ramps - they preferred to jack and slew even in the days before they got the fancy German made MFD kit which used hydraulic pumps instead of having to pump up the jacks by hand

 

https://www.aldonco.com/store/p/158-Straddle-Type-Rerailers.aspx

[Nevermakeit]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

S&T Lineman is the bloke the signalman calls when stuff breaks down.  He doesn't go fix it himself - apart from not having the skills or tools, he is still needed at his post and is probably busier than normal.  He is using emergency procedures like pilotman working if the block isn't working, flags if he can't clear a signal, clamping points by hand etc.

So a permanent on-hand repairman for the signalling? Were signal repairs required that frequently then? What sort of building or office would he have had? 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Nevermakeit
Sorry - should have read through the whole thread before asking questions already answered!

[Harlequin]

On 02/06/2021 at 10:48, Nevermakeit said:

There is some fascinating footage of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line and its branches at http://Peoplescollection.wales/items/1400701

 

My query relates to the operations being carried out from 10.59 to 11.30

 

Is anyone able to explain the sequence of movements to a complete novice like me, please? We first see 7437 approaching with what looks like four milk tanks and a guards van. The footage then cuts to what appears to be a goods van, open wagon and three milk tanks being backed down the passenger platform, whilst something seems to be located further down the line. Then it cuts to what appears to be the same vehicles with a guards van attached, still at the platform whilst the engine backs down the other platform with milk tanks still attached, before being seen attaching to the front of the train without the milk tanks it was just moving. 

My questions are:

why wasn't the train being assembled in the goods yard? 

how did the various vehicles appear to change order and position? 

how would I know what valid shunting moves are to re-create them on a layout when I have no knowledge of the historical reality? 

 

Apologies for any errors in use of the terms, and I hope that this is the correct place to post this. 

Thanks 

 

Hi Andrew,

 

It is difficult to see exactly what's going on in that sequence. I think I can work some of it out but I'll put up some drawings and hopefully someone can help fill in the gaps.

 

Here's what we see (I think):

W = Open wagon

V = Van

BV = Brake Van

MT = Milk Tanker

Green = 7437 0-6-0PT

Red arrow shows movement

 

 

It's hard to see what the loco is hauling but I don't think there's a brake van. We can't see how many tankers are in the up siding.

 

Definitely 4 tankers and a brake van, and nothing else? Where are the wagon and van?

 

We've lost one tanker and the brake van but we've picked up the wagon and van.

(In the far distance, I think we can see the recently departed southbound train to Carmarthen hauled by 7814 Fringford Manor.)

 

Suddenly, there's a brake van attached and parcels are being casually chucked into it. We don't see anything moving.

 

We can't see how many tankers are being propelled in the down direction along the up loop but my bet is there's only one.

 

Finally, the train is correctly formed for delivery of the tankers to the creamery and 7437 approaches ready to couple up and haul away.

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Harlequin

[Michael Hodgson]

 

2 hours ago, Nevermakeit said:

So a permanent on-hand repairman for the signalling? Were signal repairs required that frequently then? What sort of building or office would he have had? 

Lineman means somebody who maintains telegraph/phone lines.  In the days of wires strung up on poles along the railway, it wasn't unusual for the wind to cause damage and they were railway equipment not GPO lines.  So they had to employ somebody locally to carry out routine inspection, general maintenance and minor repairs within an area.  Block instruments themselves were extremely reliable, but things like electrical relays, contacts on signal posts which drive repeaters/indicators in the Box (connected by telegraph wires) needed cleaning or adjusting from time to time, and batteries needed replacing.  Bigger jobs affecting signalling would typically involve Permanent Way staff or specialists like Locking Fitters.  Who you needed to call would depend on the problem.

 

Signalman was generally a fairly solitary job - the only people you would typically expect to see during your shift would be

• your relief at shift handover - if the box worked more than one shift
• stationmaster/signalling inspector - your boss checking up on you!
• loco firemen -  if they had to observe Rule 55, probably infrequent at somewhere like Lampeter
• PW staff either when required to act as fogmen, or calling to arrange what they were doing to today
• goods porters/shunters - where they existed, and perhaps only if they needed to make movements that were not routine
• irate motorists  - if you had a level crossing
• your helpful & friendly lineman - probably a good idea to offer him a cuppa.

[RJS1977]

On 04/06/2021 at 08:55, Nevermakeit said:

That is a further difficulty!  I would ideally like private owner wagons, but I haven't been able to find many photographs of Lampeter in that era, and I am not sure whether that timescale fits in with the Aberayron branch, which would provide extra traffic.  Most of the photos I have seen are late 50s or early 60s, but I don't have a timetable for that period.  I would need to rely heavily on readily available models, as I am not terribly practical at building stuff, so all in all, it is a bit of a puzzle!

 

The late Michael Martin released a number of wagons from the area under his 'West Wales Wagon Works' range - including Wm. Hubbard of Aberaeron. These turn up in eBay from time to time.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=Wm+Hubbard+Aberaeron&_sacat=0

[Michael Hodgson]

19 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Hi Andrew,

 

It is difficult to see exactly what's going on in that sequence. I think I can work some of it out but I'll put up some drawings and hopefully someone can help fill in the gaps.

 

You could be over-thinking this.  Film clips are usually edited and not always put together in the right order.  The cameraman has to move from one spot to another, and the loco could be doing something while this happens.  Some bits of what happened probably weren't filmed or were not included in the completed film for some reason.  The filming might even be different days, which might involve slight differences in traffic.

[Nevermakeit]

41 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Hi Andrew,

 

It is difficult to see exactly what's going on in that sequence. I think I can work some of it out but I'll put up some drawings and hopefully someone can help fill in the gaps.

 

Here's what we see (I think):

W = Open wagon

V = Van

BV = Brake Van

MT = Milk Tanker

Green = 7437 0-6-0PT

Red arrow shows movement

 

 

It's hard to see what the loco is hauling but I don't think there's a brake van. We can't see how many tankers are in the up siding.

 

Definitely 4 tankers and a brake van, and nothing else? Where are the wagon and van?

 

We've lost one tanker and the brake van but we've picked up the wagon and van.

(In the far distance, I think we can see the recently departed southbound train to Carmarthen hauled by 7814 Fringford Manor.)

 

Suddenly, there's a brake van attached and parcels are being casually chucked into it. We don't see anything moving.

 

We can't see how many tankers are being propelled in the down direction along the up loop but my bet is there's only one.

 

Finally, the train is correctly formed for delivery of the tankers to the creamery and 7437 approaches ready to couple up and haul away.

 

Thanks very much for this - it helps to have it all set out, even if it doesn't answer all the questions! Now all I need is a week's worth of similar diagrams, and I could operate to my heart's content! 

[Nevermakeit]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

You could be over-thinking this.  Film clips are usually edited and not always put together in the right order.  The cameraman has to move from one spot to another, and the loco could be doing something while this happens.  Some bits of what happened probably weren't filmed or were not included in the completed film for some reason.  The filming might even be different days, which might involve slight differences in traffic.

Yes, I did wonder about that, but not knowing how things would have worked, thought I might have missed something. Thanks. 

[Harlequin]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

You could be over-thinking this.  Film clips are usually edited and not always put together in the right order.  The cameraman has to move from one spot to another, and the loco could be doing something while this happens.  Some bits of what happened probably weren't filmed or were not included in the completed film for some reason.  The filming might even be different days, which might involve slight differences in traffic.

The shots do appear to be in sequence and were definitely all shot on the same day by a single cameraman so it should be possible to work out exactly what all the moves are.

 

In fact, I've got a pretty good idea of the intermediate steps but I'm not sure where the brake van starts off or why we see it attached to the end of the 4 tankers while they are being shunted.

 

Something like this:

 

Shot 1

 

Between Shots 1 and 2 the wagon and van are hauled past the end of the loop and propelled into position at the Carmarthen end of the down loop. That's why we don't see them in shot 2.

The loco uncouples, out of the loop and then back down the Up Loop and into the Up siding to pick up the 4 milk tankers.

Somewhere it picks up the brake van (maybe it was in the Up siding already?)

 

Shot 2

 

Between Shots 2 and 3 the first 3 milk tankers are cut from the last milk tank and the brake van, leaving the latter two standing in the Up loop.

Those 3 tankers are hauled out of the loop and propelled to the down loop to be coupled to the van and wagon.

Those 5 vehicles are pushed to the Aberystwyth end of the down loop.

 

Shot 3

 

The loco leaves the down loop, back to the Up loop, where the remaining tank and brake van are standing.

Hauls them both out of the loop and propels them down the down loop to attach the brake van to the train.

Uncouples the remaining tank and hauls it out of the loop.

 

Shot 4

 

Shot 5: (Loco propels the lone tank down the up loop and into the up siding.)

 

The up loop is now clear.

 

Shot 6

 

When the train departs from the down loop the whole station is now clear to accept through traffic from either direction.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Lineman means somebody who maintains telegraph/phone lines.  In the days of wires strung up on poles along the railway, it wasn't unusual for the wind to cause damage and they were railway equipment not GPO lines.  So they had to employ somebody locally to carry out routine inspection, general maintenance and minor repairs within an area.  Block instruments themselves were extremely reliable, but things like electrical relays, contacts on signal posts which drive repeaters/indicators in the Box (connected by telegraph wires) needed cleaning or adjusting from time to time, and batteries needed replacing.  Bigger jobs affecting signalling would typically involve Permanent Way staff or specialists like Locking Fitters.  Who you needed to call would depend on the problem.

 

Signalman was generally a fairly solitary job - the only people you would typically expect to see during your shift would be

• your relief at shift handover - if the box worked more than one shift
• stationmaster/signalling inspector - your boss checking up on you!
• loco firemen -  if they had to observe Rule 55, probably infrequent at somewhere like Lampeter
• PW staff either when required to act as fogmen, or calling to arrange what they were doing to today
• goods porters/shunters - where they existed, and perhaps only if they needed to make movements that were not routine
• irate motorists  - if you had a level crossing
• your helpful & friendly lineman - probably a good idea to offer him a cuppa.

You forgot the Fireman who dropped in to give you a share of anything which had been bagged en route plus the folk either coming in for a haircut or with a watch for repair.  All depends really on how strict the Stationmaster was as the approach of any other officialdom, especially the District Inspector (who was based at Aberystwyth), would be known about long before he arrived.  But, especially out in the country, with plenty of warning of whoever might be about,   hair cutting and watch repair were common activities among Signalmen for some unaccountable reason. 

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The shots do appear to be in sequence and were definitely all shot on the same day by a single cameraman so it should be possible to work out exactly what all the moves are.

 

In fact, I've got a pretty good idea of the intermediate steps but I'm not sure where the brake van starts off or why we see it attached to the end of the 4 tankers while they are being shunted.

 

Something like this:

 

Shot 1

 

Between Shots 1 and 2 the wagon and van are hauled past the end of the loop and propelled into position at the Carmarthen end of the down loop. That's why we don't see them in shot 2.

The loco uncouples, out of the loop and then back down the Up Loop and into the Up siding to pick up the 4 milk tankers.

Somewhere it picks up the brake van (maybe it was in the Up siding already?)

 

Shot 2

 

Between Shots 2 and 3 the first 3 milk tankers are cut from the last milk tank and the brake van, leaving the latter two standing in the Up loop.

Those 3 tankers are hauled out of the loop and propelled to the down loop to be coupled to the van and wagon.

Those 5 vehicles are pushed to the Aberystwyth end of the down loop.

 

Shot 3

 

The loco leaves the down loop, back to the Up loop, where the remaining tank and brake van are standing.

Hauls them both out of the loop and propels them down the down loop to attach the brake van to the train.

Uncouples the remaining tank and hauls it out of the loop.

 

Shot 4

 

Shot 5: (Loco propels the lone tank down the up loop and into the up siding.)

 

The up loop is now clear.

 

Shot 6

 

When the train departs from the down loop the whole station is now clear to accept through traffic from either direction.

 

 

I suspect your opening part is not quite right.  When the pannier first appears it is carrying Class 6 lamps and the signalman is there waiting to take the token (arm held up) so what you describe as Shot 1 is, i suspect, more likely a more distant view of what we see in Shot 2.  I am guessing that the open and van are at the rear of the arriving train next to the brake van.

 

What then happens then is that the whole train apart from the brake van is shunted to the Down Loop - where we see it arriving.  Next a single milk tank is detached at the Carmarthen end and shunted to the Up Siding.  The engine then picks up the brakevan which had been left in the Up Loop clear of the points leading to the Up Siding and shunts it onto what is now the rear of the train standing in the Down Loop and after that the engine runs round ready to depart to Aberayron.

 

None of which has any resemblance whatsoever to the contents of the 1961 WTT   And leaves us with little idea of where it came from 

[Harlequin]

50 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I suspect your opening part is not quite right.  When the pannier first appears it is carrying Class 6 lamps and the signalman is there waiting to take the token (arm held up) so what you describe as Shot 1 is, i suspect, more likely a more distant view of what we see in Shot 2.  I am guessing that the open and van are at the rear of the arriving train next to the brake van.

 

What then happens then is that the whole train apart from the brake van is shunted to the Down Loop - where we see it arriving.  Next a single milk tank is detached at the Carmarthen end and shunted to the Up Siding.  The engine then picks up the brakevan which had been left in the Up Loop clear of the points leading to the Up Siding and shunts it onto what is now the rear of the train standing in the Down Loop and after that the engine runs round ready to depart to Aberayron.

 

None of which has any resemblance whatsoever to the contents of the 1961 WTT   And leaves us with little idea of where it came from 

 

Yes, I see what you mean about Shots 1 and 2, they are very close together in time. The extreme foreshortening of the trains in Shot 1 made it looks different/shorter to me but looking closer the people are all in the same positions in the two shots.

 

Here's a still from Shot 1:

 

 

Here's a still from Shot 2:

The porter, the signalman and the guy alongside the Up loop are all present in roughly the same places in both shots.

 

However, something is still not quite right because when we see the tanker being propelled along the up loop in Shot 5, the brakevan is already in place:

 

Quite a puzzle!

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Harlequin

[Nevermakeit]

On 04/06/2021 at 18:08, The Stationmaster said:

 

but the south end loop points at Lampeter were worked by a ground frame

 

So would that have been operated by the locomotive crew, or by the station staff?  Would there be a 'standard' position, that had to be re-set after use, or would it have been left as changed until the next occasion it needed altering?  Would it have been linked to a signal?  Thanks.