VIA Rail new Siemens trains

[dibber25]

No.2200 first liveried example. A complete set is to be delivered later in the year so that it can be subjected to tests in a Canadian winter.

[russ p]

51 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

No.2200 first liveried example. A complete set is to be delivered later in the year so that it can be subjected to tests in a Canadian winter.

 

Surprised the union has approved something that doesn't look like it would fare well in a grade crossing collision.  Hope the stock is more comfortable than the Siemens stuff here

[mdvle]

20 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Surprised the union has approved something that doesn't look like it would fare well in a grade crossing collision.  Hope the stock is more comfortable than the Siemens stuff here

 

It meets FRA standards like any other loco, and the trains will be push-pull with a cab car on the other end with a similar look.

 

(or to put it another way, the FRA standards are based on running into another train so anything road based should be easily handled)

Edited June 3, 2021 by mdvle

[Siberian Snooper]

That picture definitely qualifies for the when the real thing looks like a model, thread.

[GEOEng03]

16 hours ago, dibber25 said:

No.2200 first liveried example. A complete set is to be delivered later in the year so that it can be subjected to tests in a Canadian winter.

Great picture Chris.  I really like the paint scheme on this as well... 

 

Hijacking the thread slightly - is there a reason that North America doesn't use double cabs. I suspect the answer is something along the lines of no need etc... but merely curious. 

Cheers

Edited June 4, 2021 by GEOEng03
added text

[davknigh]

41 minutes ago, GEOEng03 said:

Great picture Chris.  I really like the paint scheme on this as well... 

 

Hijacking the thread slightly - is there a reason that North America doesn't use double cabs. I suspect the answer is something along the lines of no need etc... but merely curious. 

Cheers

Probably cost. Most NA trains run with multiple units anyway so it is relatively easy to have a cab on either end of a lash up. There’s also a deep seated conservative streak in the ownership that frowns on any form of change. Norfolk Southern management  only recently allowed in-cab toilets on their engines.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, GEOEng03 said:

Great picture Chris.  I really like the paint scheme on this as well... 

 

Hijacking the thread slightly - is there a reason that North America doesn't use double cabs. I suspect the answer is something along the lines of no need etc... but merely curious. 

Cheers

 

The already mentioned cost and multiple locos per train is likely part of it.

 

But I suspect it likely comes back to North American railroads being freight with passenger as an afterthought - and even much of the high profile passenger stuff was still freight with things like post office traffic paying the bills.

 

Distance and population density meant very little of the higher intensity service as seen in Europe, so turning either locos or complete trains was frequent where they cared enough to worry about such things - otherwise a standard GP unit would happily be used for either direction without turning.

 

Where there was the density and service frequency they either did go dual cabs (see the NEC and the Pennsy GG1, or the NH EP5) or they went with push-pull or emu units - or for other low density routes they went DMU with the RDC's in an attempt to keep services going.

Edited June 4, 2021 by mdvle

[dibber25]

I think the single-cab look is part of the tradition of North American railways. They don't view it as a single locomotive. In the heyday of passenger diesels they had lash-ups of four locos, one with a cab, two without and one with a cab facing the other way. Or two with a cab lashed-up back to back. Even with a single loco and one cab, it didn't matter because their usual practice was to turn the whole train on a 'Y', not to run-round with a loop in the way that was usual in the UK. The former Nightstar coaches that VIA used on the Ocean are being withdrawn because VIA can no longer turn the train at Halifax and Canadians don't travel 'back to the engine'. The Nightstar stock has seats all facing one way. The new trains with their push-pull cars are - at last - a move towards more economical operating practices with trains that will no longer need to be turned. How they'll deal with reversing the seats is not clear. Maybe a return to the old-style pivoted seat units. With regard to the photo, VIA is also showing pictures of a train with largely white/pale grey stock with a giant maple leaf. It is not clear whether that's an alternative livery. It looks to be a computer-generated re-livery rather than a train that has actually been painted. (CJL)

[mdvle]

30 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

Even with a single loco and one cab, it didn't matter because their usual practice was to turn the whole train on a 'Y', not to run-round with a loop in the way that was usual in the UK.

 

While some places used a Y, I suspect the balloon track was far more common - for example the Pennsy/PC/Amtrak yard serving Penn Station was designed such that the trains simply looped around the balloon track that was at one end of the yard.

 

30 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

The former Nightstar coaches that VIA used on the Ocean are being withdrawn because VIA can no longer turn the train at Halifax and Canadians don't travel 'back to the engine'. The Nightstar stock has seats all facing one way.

 

While that might be part of it, the Nightstar/Renaissance stock is also being removed from service because it is starting to require excessive maintenance to keep it operational - though the Budd stock isn't much better.

 

VIA is facing a big problem in the next couple of years because as of the discoveries found in the Budd equipment last year the estimate is that Budd equipment only has maybe another decade.

 

30 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

The new trains with their push-pull cars are - at last - a move towards more economical operating practices with trains that will no longer need to be turned. How they'll deal with reversing the seats is not clear. Maybe a return to the old-style pivoted seat units.

 

Indications so far have been fixed seating with half the passengers seating backwards, though that may have changed.

 

30 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

With regard to the photo, VIA is also showing pictures of a train with largely white/pale grey stock with a giant maple leaf. It is not clear whether that's an alternative livery. It looks to be a computer-generated re-livery rather than a train that has actually been painted. (CJL)

 

None of VIA's flood of photos to Instagram show such a paint scheme for the coaches (which are computer generated as none of the coaches are complete yet.

https://www.instagram.com/viarailcanada/?hl=en

 

As for deliveries, there are actually 2 complete sets scheduled to be delivered this year with a 3rd set in 1Q2022 for testing - with sets 4 to 32 starting to arrive later in 2022 through 2024.

 

The schedule can be seen in this document of a presentation by VIA in February this year

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/Annual Meetings/2021/10. NGEC - Via Rail_New Fleet Update Feb 2021_Final.pdf

[pH]

51 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

While some places used a Y, I suspect the balloon track was far more common - for example the Pennsy/PC/Amtrak yard serving Penn Station was designed such that the trains simply looped around the balloon track that was at one end of the yard.

I thought it was fairly common practice to run past a terminal station on a Y and back in.

[davknigh]

1 hour ago, pH said:

I thought it was fairly common practice to run past a terminal station on a Y and back in.

If they remember to do it. About 30 odd years ago the missus & I went to Washington DC from Montreal via Amtrak on the overnight sleeper. The problem was that the train had not been turned and the sleeping cars were at the head end and the bunks were set up so you would travel head first. Between that and the 1,437 grade crossings between Montreal and NYC I didn't sleep much that night.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[pH]

3 minutes ago, davknigh said:

... the 1,437 grade crossings between Montreal and NYC ...

You counted them?

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, pH said:

I thought it was fairly common practice to run past a terminal station on a Y and back in.

 

Probably was if it was a) a terminal station and b) there was a Y that could handle a long train close by.

 

Penn Station is a through station with tunnels under rivers on both sides, so a Y wouldn't be convenient.

 

But there were equally a large number of through stations, or smaller stations where land wasn't so expensive, or the simple reality that once you had a roundhouse you almost had the space for a balloon track so the balloon track was more convenient.

 

Example Toronto - where both CN and CP had balloon tracks that ran around their roundhouses.

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/TTR/map_CNR_CPR_TTR.jpg

 

Or CP's Glen Yard in Montreal (image on this page showing balloon track around roundhouse)

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_facilities/Glen.htm

 

Another option, for example used by VIA for the Canadian out of Toronto, is to take different routes into and out of the station.

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by mdvle

[Nova Scotian]

I'm so excited to never see one of these because the East Coast is an afterthought...

 

Does look good. Was hoping there'd be some bold action, funding etc for Via as a result of the pandemic. Get people back out of aircraft and into comfortable, high-enough speed trains. Shame the infrastructure, cost etc just doesn't support it. 

 

Will try and hop on one the next time I'm in QC/ON on work travel (whenever that starts up again).

[mdvle]

8 minutes ago, Nova Scotian said:

I'm so excited to never see one of these because the East Coast is an afterthought...

 

As I noted above, events of the last year have apparently (VIA hasn't publicly commented, but it has been discussed on the forums that follow VIA) made clear to VIA that the Budd equipment isn't as indestructible as many enthusiasts believe.  Thus VIA is looking at maybe another decade of service before they are forced out of service.

 

Given that any replacements would take around 5 years (to allow for the bidding process and then actually building and delivering) a decsion on both the Ocean and the Canadian would seem to be looming in the next 5 years.

 

For logistics reasons the best option for VIA (if funding becomes available) would be a Siemens fleet to replace the remaining renaissance equipment and Budd equipment.

 

(as a side note - Transport Canada has made it clear to VIA that when VIA retires the LRC cars they will no longer be allowed to be used for passenger use in Canada).

 

8 minutes ago, Nova Scotian said:

Does look good. Was hoping there'd be some bold action, funding etc for Via as a result of the pandemic. Get people back out of aircraft and into comfortable, high-enough speed trains. Shame the infrastructure, cost etc just doesn't support it.

 

VIA is still pursuing their privately build passenger line from Toronto-ish to Ottawa-ish for their HFR proposal - the hold-up is unknown but partially is federal government approval - and that is partially to mainly a political calculation.

 

But political issues have (finally) started to appear as Cornwall is the first to start to realize that a new dedicated line likely means existing places on the existing route get left behind

https://www.cornwallnewswatch.com/2021/05/27/cornwall-council-concerned-via-rail-plan-doesnt-address-service/

 

As for pandemic related funding - the problem is that anything is at least a decade away - there is nothing "shovel ready" as the saying goes and thus no benefit to spending now - of particular concern for a minority government trying to work the election calculus.

 

That said, the Government did spend a lot on VIA thanks to the pandemic - operating funding from the Government went from $280m pre-pandemic to $416m in 2020 and that increased funding has continued so far into 2021.

https://media.viarail.ca/sites/default/files/publications/Annual_report_2020_EN.pdf

 

(unlike Amtrak, VIA doesn't have to negotiate that funding through a public process covered by the media).

 

 

 

[Nova Scotian]

11 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

As I noted above, events of the last year have apparently (VIA hasn't publicly commented, but it has been discussed on the forums that follow VIA) made clear to VIA that the Budd equipment isn't as indestructible as many enthusiasts believe.  Thus VIA is looking at maybe another decade of service before they are forced out of service.

 

Given that any replacements would take around 5 years (to allow for the bidding process and then actually building and delivering) a decsion on both the Ocean and the Canadian would seem to be looming in the next 5 years.

 

For logistics reasons the best option for VIA (if funding becomes available) would be a Siemens fleet to replace the remaining renaissance equipment and Budd equipment.

 

(as a side note - Transport Canada has made it clear to VIA that when VIA retires the LRC cars they will no longer be allowed to be used for passenger use in Canada).

 

 

VIA is still pursuing their privately build passenger line from Toronto-ish to Ottawa-ish for their HFR proposal - the hold-up is unknown but partially is federal government approval - and that is partially to mainly a political calculation.

 

But political issues have (finally) started to appear as Cornwall is the first to start to realize that a new dedicated line likely means existing places on the existing route get left behind

https://www.cornwallnewswatch.com/2021/05/27/cornwall-council-concerned-via-rail-plan-doesnt-address-service/

 

As for pandemic related funding - the problem is that anything is at least a decade away - there is nothing "shovel ready" as the saying goes and thus no benefit to spending now - of particular concern for a minority government trying to work the election calculus.

 

That said, the Government did spend a lot on VIA thanks to the pandemic - operating funding from the Government went from $280m pre-pandemic to $416m in 2020 and that increased funding has continued so far into 2021.

https://media.viarail.ca/sites/default/files/publications/Annual_report_2020_EN.pdf

 

(unlike Amtrak, VIA doesn't have to negotiate that funding through a public process covered by the media).

 

 

 

I'm not sure whether it's a lack of support high-up, the lack of a plan (beyond dedicated line section TO to Ottawa), or what's really going on, but the Government did recapitalize many of the funding pots that Via could go to. And there's always the Canadian Infrastructure Bank. 

 

My nirvana is a cohesive 30 year plan that identifies where intercity service could be reinstated, under what conditions, how to invest in infrastructure and rolling stock to achieve economic, environmental and social goals beyond "that will never pay back". Expenditures on rail often generate avoided costs elsewhere, and are a key economic enabler for both flow of trade and people. 

 

I know I have rose-tinted railway glasses and the argument is much harder to make here... the distances involved, the age of existing lines (plus the length and speed of unit freight trains and their prominence on large sections of single track). Over Christmas I read a couple of fantastic books on both CP and CN, the initial building of the railways... and the "gift" to these companies of infrastructure funded by the government (thus the people) that is now locked up for private freight use. Of course, much of what was given was land beside the railway that wasn't actually ours to give...

 

I've promised my kids once the restrictions are lifted, that if the Ocean is reinstated we're going to do Halifax - Quebec City soon after it's running, incase its return is only temporary given the rolling stock challenges and who knows which way political winds will blow re. Via annual funding.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Nova Scotian said:

I'm not sure whether it's a lack of support high-up, the lack of a plan (beyond dedicated line section TO to Ottawa), or what's really going on, but the Government did recapitalize many of the funding pots that Via could go to. And there's always the Canadian Infrastructure Bank. 

 

VIA's "plan" isn't just the dedicated Toronto Ottawa line, their HFR is for Toronto - Ottawa/Montreal - Quebec City, with dedicated tracks as well (supposedly) between Montreal and Quebec City.

 

https://corpo.viarail.ca/en/projects-infrastructure/high-frequency-rail

 

And all to be paid for using the Canadian Infrastructure Bank - which despite it's name isn't a "bank" as such but rather a Crown Corporation with a mandate to facilitate the variously named PPP's (public private partnerships) where private lenders pay for the infrastructure and the government then pays usage fees.

 

The rumoured problem though is that the numbers work for the Toronto Ottawa Montreal triangle, but not when the Quebec City part is added on - and politically removing the Quebec City section is a no-go so it remains in limbo.

 

(and not helped by REM, the Montreal transit system being built than took over the tunnel in Montreal that VIA needed for their proposed Quebec City line on the north side of the St. Lawrence).

 

(second note - while I am generally against private building of public transit, it is worth considering that the privately financed/built REM is nearing completion while public transit projects in Quebec City and the Toronto area remained bogged down/cancelled/redesigned/etc with nothing getting built...  like the HSR in south-western Ontario that the previous government was working on and cancelled by the current government)

 

Quote

My nirvana is a cohesive 30 year plan that identifies where intercity service could be reinstated, under what conditions,

 

So, not the cross-Canada high speed rail line that was recently proposed at the (Liberal?) party convention/meeting...

Edited June 5, 2021 by mdvle

[Nova Scotian]

27 minutes ago, mdvle said:

So, not the cross-Canada high speed rail line that was recently proposed at the (Liberal?) party convention/meeting...

Realistically, the distances between Halifax, Moncton, and Saint John are pretty short - with several towns on each route that could be served. Upgrades to bring back intercity services to those could feasibly contain cost. Once you start talking about line upgrades all the way from Halifax to Quebec City to cost becomes unworldly. The distances involved in cross-Canada are just massive, as you well know! To me, it's almost as though the rebuild needs to start with intercity service - starting to connect and reconnect key cities (eg. Edmonton and Calgary) and once the railways are reestablished start to look at sensible long-distance options. The commuter rail study in Halifax didn't go anywhere - from what i could determine a multitude of reasons (safety standards where sharing track with freight, the timetabling around freight on single track, installation of platforms and other infrastructure etc). I don't see commuter rail as the saviour - nor long distance - so that leaves intercity by default!

 

It is highly unlikely I would take a train from Halifax west of Windsor unless I were travelling purely for leisure and the train journey is the point. Travelling for work, or where I'm trying to get to a destination I'm not going to spend more than 8 hours on something without sleeping accommodations, *maybe* 24 hours with.

 

The railway was an amazing nation building and unifying exercise - but air travel is where it's at for the majority of long distance travel.

[Nova Scotian]

Back on the charger - I do like the new livery. I've been very negative because I won't see them, and that's wrong of me.

 

This is a fantastic investment in that rail corridor with new rolling stock and I hope it helps build the importance of the railway here.

 

I look forward to the results of the winterization tests - hopefully they test it in all the conditions it'll meet - as freezing rain, dry powdered snow, sticky wet heavy snow etc probably do very different things to fans and cooling systems!

[dibber25]

On 04/06/2021 at 22:54, pH said:

I thought it was fairly common practice to run past a terminal station on a Y and back in.

Certainly, my VIA friend refers always to turning on a 'Y'. The only balloon loop I've ever seen is at Bennett on the White Pass & Yukon but I'm not that well travelled in the USA. (CJL)

[dibber25]

On 04/06/2021 at 22:02, mdvle said:

 

 

 

None of VIA's flood of photos to Instagram show such a paint scheme for the coaches (which are computer generated as none of the coaches are complete yet.

https://www.instagram.com/viarailcanada/?hl=en

 

 

Not quite sure why you think I imagined it. (CJL)

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, dibber25 said:

Not quite sure why you think I imagined it. (CJL)

 

Sorry, but wasn't implying that I thought you imagined it and thus didn't intend for it to come across that way.

 

I was merely pointing out that the public images posted by VIA all had the coaches matching the one real loco that has been photographed, which was different that image you described and have now posted.

 

The image you posted is somewhat interesting and may be a special paint scheme VIA intends for some reason, though my first thought at looking at was that Air Canada was getting into the train business.

[pH]

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

Certainly, my VIA friend refers always to turning on a 'Y'. The only balloon loop I've ever seen is at Bennett on the White Pass & Yukon but I'm not that well travelled in the USA. (CJL)

A bit OT, but there are quite a few balloon tracks in the US. Many loading and unloading points for unit trains (usually coal trains)  have balloon tracks. There are balloon tracks at some freight yards, for example West Colton, Omaha and La Junta, Colorado. And there are balloon tracks on either side of Donner Pass, at Truckee and west of Emigrant Gap, for turning snow-clearing equipment. There may be balloon tracks in other similar places.

[dibber25]

On 08/06/2021 at 23:00, mdvle said:

 

Sorry, but wasn't implying that I thought you imagined it and thus didn't intend for it to come across that way.

 

I was merely pointing out that the public images posted by VIA all had the coaches matching the one real loco that has been photographed, which was different that image you described and have now posted.

 

The image you posted is somewhat interesting and may be a special paint scheme VIA intends for some reason, though my first thought at looking at was that Air Canada was getting into the train business.

A friend who is a VIA engineer said it was among the new fleet illustrations in a staff briefing. She didn't know what the significance of the different colour scheme was, either. (CJL)

[mdvle]

The first trainset is complete and is on its way to Canada for testing per this VIA Tweet