M7 going beyond the remit of vintage.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well my Triang M7 plans continue apace. Just sorted out the damaged pick ups on the one I am restoring. It now just needs detailing and painting. But this has led on to other things M7/N2 related. I had an idea so I have started to mix M7 and N2 loco's. These are my preliminary test fittings. Tell me what you think. I would love to know if the M7 body on an N2 chassis actually looks like a real loco and visa versa the N2 body on the M7 chassis. I may have to split this project between here for the original M7 restoration and the rest to the modification section. I will of course be buying a new N2 body and chassis as the ones in the pictures are a mint Wrenn engine and will be going back together and put away. I have a chassis in mind, But need to look for a tatty body

Edited July 24, 2021 by cypherman

[Ruffnut Thorston]

For the M7 body on the 0-6-2 chassis, I would look to Scottish locos by Drummond I think…

 

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/N/n14n15.php

 

I also found a Scottish M7 type 0-4-4…

 

 

https://invertrain.com/product/nbr-lner-g7-0-4-4-tank/

 

 

 

 

The 0-6-2 body on the M7 chassis, especially in LMS black, looks a bit LNWR to me.

 

No actual examples spring to mind though.

 

 

A G5? 

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/G/g5.php

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Typo

[cypherman]

Hi Ruffnut,

Thanks for the info.

[locomad2]

M7 on a R1 chassis 

 

 

Needs a bogie but easy fit, 

 

Compare to E2 (Wills) awaiting repaint

 

Doesn't look too bad. 

 

In early 80's one of the railway modelling mags did a feature on putting different bodies on other chassis and all types of engines they close too, think was Airfix? 

[Nick Holliday]

6 hours ago, locomad2 said:

 

Compare to E2 (Wills) awaiting repaint

 

Doesn't look too bad. 

That Wills kit is an E5.  "Thomas" was an E2 (sort of)

[bodmin16]

Noooooooo! As a huge M7 fan this post is far too painful for me! Seriously though well not too serious as it doesn't pay to be too serious in this hobby of ours.  Whilst this sort of modelling isn't really my cup of tea, I do love to see it and just how imaginative people can be.  I still have a Dapol pug which is a pseudo industrial - can't remember where the chassis came from, and I "hobbled" together various things in the 70's which was the norm back then and whilst my current modelling is not as imaginative as it was, this taught me a load of skills which I still use today both in kit building and modifying/detailing r.t.r.  As a teenager I had a number of Airfix Battle of Britain's on a whole plethora of chassis, not forgetting a Lima 4f that I bodged into a Q in n.  This of course was even out of scale against other n gauge models.  I would probably be excommunicated  these days by the rivet counters and purists, come to think of it they would probably still excommunicated even for my current efforts.    

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Just a quick update,

Well here she is after her first coat of paint. Couple more coats of black, then touching up the buffer beams etc. Then transfers.

I have added more hand rails round the boiler and also the copper steam relief valve and pipes(I think that what they are). They are not visible yet, But will show uo when  paint them copper.

[cypherman]

On 24/07/2021 at 23:24, Ruffnut Thorston said:

For the M7 body on the 0-6-2 chassis, I would look to Scottish locos by Drummond I think…

 

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/N/n14n15.php

 

I also found a Scottish M7 type 0-4-4…

 

 

https://invertrain.com/product/nbr-lner-g7-0-4-4-tank/

 

 

 

 

The 0-6-2 body on the M7 chassis, especially in LMS black, looks a bit LNWR to me.

 

No actual examples spring to mind though.

 

 

A G5? 

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/G/g5.php

 

 

 

Hi Ruffnut,

What can I say. I cannot really see any difference between the Southern M7 and the LNER G7. Is it really the same engine with just a change of designation for a different company. Need more pictures to check this out. Would make a nice and simple repaint if it is. Especially as I have a spare M7 just sitting there.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well the only obvious differences I can see between the M7 and the G7 are that the G7 has a slightly larger coal bunker and the Westinghouse steam brake is in wrong place as the pictures show. Except in last but 1 picture which this 0 Gauge kit.

The last picture is interesting in that it looks like an Atlantic tank version of the M7. I wonder if I could squeeze a modified 4-4-2 chassis into the body.

[cypherman]

On 21/08/2021 at 01:14, locomad2 said:

M7 on a R1 chassis 

 

 

Needs a bogie but easy fit, 

 

Compare to E2 (Wills) awaiting repaint

 

Doesn't look too bad. 

 

In early 80's one of the railway modelling mags did a feature on putting different bodies on other chassis and all types of engines they close too, think was Airfix? 

Hi Locomad,

Technically that is what mine is on. The Wrenn N2 used a slightly modified R1 chassis by adding a steel extension back plate held on by a small lip and a screw to make the chassis longer and then drilled the mounting point for the rear bogie.

[locomad2]

On 21/08/2021 at 07:55, Nick Holliday said:

That Wills kit is an E5.  "Thomas" was an E2 (sort of)

Quite correct getting my "E"s mixed up a bit

[Nearholmer]

Something to watch out for with these crossbreeds is the location of the firebox. Even if you aren't into the engineering of real locos, if you look at enough of 'em you will get an instinctive feel for what looks right, and what looks wrong, and it is very often that the crossbreed would have its firebox-ashpan and rear driven axle all tangled. 0-4-4T are easy, because all the driven axles are ahead of the ashpan (someone will now show a photo of the very rare design where it isn't), but 0-6-2T need a bit of thought.

 

The Drummond family design link between the Southern and Northern extremities of Britain is always interesting, and it is easy enough to trace the link to Stroudley in that too, because Dugald assisted Stroudley both on the HR and at Brighton. One of the Scottish goods loco designs, I forget which, is pure LBSCR, and the 0-4-4T series is supposedly rooted in the Brighton D tank design*, but I think that itself has Scots antecedents.
 

*https://www.lner.info/locos/G/g8.php It’s hard to find pictures of them in 0-4-2T format, but think D tank with M7-type cab. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

And, if you want to paint an old M7 blue, or LMS livery, rather than in NBR brown or LNER livery, try this one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian_Railway_439_Class This wasn’t a Drummond design officially, but was sure as heck inspired by one!

 

Its a pity really that there wasn’t another Drummond brother who designed locos for a Welsh railway, to be inherited by the GWR.

 

 

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well it is finally finished. 

N2 chassis and M7 body. Nearest engine I could find that looked a bit like this was the E6. So I thought it could be called an E7T. One step up from an E6.

1  Replaced the damaged armature in the motor.

2  Moved the engines whistle further back and put in 2 steam valves. Filed off the original ones that were on the steam dome.

3  New coupling hooks front and rear.

4  New steam and vacuum pipes front and rear. lamp irons front and rear.

5  New steps on the back of the bunker.

6  New top guard rail on the bunker.

7  Scratch built the ventilation hatch on the top of the cab.

8  some other bits of brass work and steps on the engine tanks and splashers.

9  fitted a cover over the 2 holes where the original chassis protruded through.

10 Fitted guard rails on the rear windows.

11 The original M7 had an opening smokebox door and an a plastic inside view. this was removed as it got in the way of the new chassis fitting. The door was then reset further in  to the                   front of the smokebox  than the original.

12 fitted new hand rails at various points on the engine.

13 Full repaint in SR black and transfers

14 lamp to indicate branch passenger train.

15 Real coal used in the bunker.

I am in no way a fine scale modeller. personally I think my skills are basic but adequate for what I want. But I have developed a what the hell attitude over the past couple of years and just like to try things out. So I do. I am happy with the way this has turned out. So is this vintage with a new life or heresy and should never be seen in the light of day again.......LOL

Edited September 1, 2021 by cypherman

[Wolseley]

On 24/08/2021 at 06:52, Nearholmer said:

One of the Scottish goods loco designs, I forget which, is pure LBSCR.......

 

I think that's the NB Drummond designed 0-6-0 that evolved into the Caley Jumbo, but I'll have to go digging through a few books to confirm it.

[Wolseley]

10 hours ago, Wolseley said:

 

I think that's the NB Drummond designed 0-6-0 that evolved into the Caley Jumbo, but I'll have to go digging through a few books to confirm it.

 

It was Drummond's 454 class 0-6-0 for the North British, which was basically a Stroudley D class 0-4-2 (not sure what variant - I'm not too well up on LBSCR matters), redesigned as a six coupled locomotive (in details other than the wheel arrangement, the 454 was much closer to Stroudley's D class than to his 0-6-0 design, the C class).  The boiler, firebox and grate dimensions were within a few inches of being the same, and the tenders were identical, down to the framing and the underhung springs.  they initially were equipped with Stroudley's feedwater heating system, but this was removed at an early date.  The main differences between the two classes, other than the wheel arrangement, were confined to the cab roof and dome with enclosed lock up safety valves.  Both had smokebox wingplates, similar smokebox doors and fastenings, sandboxes combined with leading splashers, left hand boiler handrail incorporating the control rod to the blower valve on the smokebox side and, as mentioned, their tenders.

 

The NBR 454 class was developed into the Caledonian "Jumbo" class, once Drummond moved to St Rollox, with little in the way of external differences.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Wolseley
removing typo

[Nick Holliday]

3 hours ago, Wolseley said:

It was Drummond's 454 class 0-6-0 for the North British, which was basically a Stroudley D class 0-4-2 (not sure what variant - I'm not too well up on LBSCR matters), redesigned as a six coupled locomotive (in details other than the wheel arrangement, the 454 was much closer to Stroudley's D class than to his 0-6-0 design, the C class).  The boiler, firebox and grate dimensions were within a few inches of being the same, and the tenders were identical, down to the framing and the underhung springs.  they initially were equipped with Stroudley's feedwater heating system, but this was removed at an early date.  The main differences between the two classes, other than the wheel arrangement, were confined to the cab roof and dome with enclosed lock up safety valves.  Both had smokebox wingplates, similar smokebox doors and fastenings, sandboxes combined with leading splashers, left hand boiler handrail incorporating the control rod to the blower valve on the smokebox side and, as mentioned, their tenders.

 

Is this what you meant?

http://www.lbscr.org/Rolling-Stock/Locomotives/Stroudley/D2.xhtml

 

[cypherman]

Hi Nick,

That's one hell of a trailing wheel.

[Wolseley]

18 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Is this what you meant?

http://www.lbscr.org/Rolling-Stock/Locomotives/Stroudley/D2.xhtml

 

 

I'm pretty certain that's the one.

[Nick Holliday]

19 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi Nick,

That's one hell of a trailing wheel.

The trailing and tender wheels were Stroudley's standard 4' 6" diameter. Used on the D Tanks 0-4-2T and his passenger tender locos, D2, D3, Gladstone and G class singles.

Here's a drawing from the colinebinnie website of a D2.

[cypherman]

18 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

The trailing and tender wheels were Stroudley's standard 4' 6" diameter. Used on the D Tanks 0-4-2T and his passenger tender locos, D2, D3, Gladstone and G class singles.

Here's a drawing from the colinebinnie website of a D2.

Hi Nick,

In the photograph it looks far bigger. What's the size of the drivers. it could be that the size is relative in comparison to them.

[Nick Holliday]

12 minutes ago, cypherman said:

Hi Nick,

In the photograph it looks far bigger. What's the size of the drivers. it could be that the size is relative in comparison to them.

5' 6", so not much larger than the carrying wheels. The Gladstone and Richmond 0-4-2 classes had 6' 6" driving wheels.

[cypherman]

Hi Nick,

That accounts for why it looks so big. Almost like an 0-6-0. Minus the coupling rods of course.

[Wolseley]

8 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi Nick,

That accounts for why it looks so big. Almost like an 0-6-0. Minus the coupling rods of course.

 

This is getting a way a bit from the M7, but your comment reminds me of the NSW Railways 26 class, which is (and I can use the present tense, as one was preserved) a 2-6-2T but, to all intents and purposes, looks like a 2-8-0T.

 

[cypherman]

Hi Wolseley,

I agree. But the gap between the rear driver and pony wheel is so big it could almost be set up as a 2-10-0.

Now that looks like another possible bodge. Triang 2mt 2-6-2 chassis and 2x0-6-0 saddle tank engines plus the cab and bunker from an M7. I already have a spare chassis and one saddle tank body. So another one to go on to the ever expanding to do list. There you go Wolseley back with a bit of an M7.....

Edited September 6, 2021 by cypherman