Cattle wagons - what time of day do they run, country station to market town?

[Nearholmer]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

he Brill branch sounds very much that sort of situation.

 

The Brill tramway/branch was not Met/GC, it was Met alone, I'm 90% certain. The photo I'm thinking of was taken on the Qauinton road to Verney Junction section, which is to all intents and purposes flat.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Michael Hodgson]

Coming back to the OP's question, I have seen WTTs with some trains marked MDO (Market Days Only).  This wasn't  quite the same as entries for shoppers in the AA book (remember them?) of which day of the week was Early Closing and which day there was a general market in the Town Square.   It related to agricultural markets, and of course the station staff all knew when local markets were held.

[Michael Hodgson]

22 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The problem with an unfitted wagon as tail traffic is what happens to it if it becomes detached from the train, as there is no brake van to it's rear to stop it running wherever gradients, momentum, and winds want to take it, irrespective of how good a lookout the guard has kept as all it will do is enable him to write up a more imformative report into the accident.  If it is running loose behind the train, and the train stops, you risk a collision as it catches up, and if it runs away in the other direction, you are now relying on your trap and catch point protection.

... and at the every least you can expect to have even more muck to sweep out than usual !

 

I imagine the instruction about drovers riding in a Guard's van was aimed at cattle traffic on branches that did not have a booked passenger service

[Winander]

I thought cattle wagons were through fitted with pipes to be able to run in passenger trains? Livestock carriage was a valuable trade for railway companies and I'm sure the modest effort and cost of a pipe and fittings was profitable.

[MarkC]

This is a timely thread. I'm researching the goods traffic that ran between Whitby & Scarborough. Wiki (I know, I know...) states that several stations had horse and other livestock traffic. The question is, would there have been special workings for the livestock traffic, as from what I have found so far, the only goods workings were pickup services. Presumably the horse boxes would go as tail traffic on ordinary passenger trains, unless there was something like a Hunt or point-to-point meeting in the area justifying a special? (The Staintondale Hunt was, of course, in the area).

 

Help appreciated.

[MR Chuffer]

2 hours ago, Winander said:

cattle wagons were through fitted with pipes to be able to run in passenger trains

Not apparent in Midland Wagons - Vol 2 (Essery), post-WW1 there may have been an increase but photos I've seen pre-WW1 don't support this theory in the MR, time for @Compound2632 to adjudicate?

[moorlander]

there are 2 types of market , one for slaughter and the store markets usually on seperate days.  

plus alot of cattle came in from ireland and sheep down from scotland . 

 

When loading cattle into wagons , it is generlly easier to group animals from the same farm together.  they easier to handle and sold in small batches  sometimes .  

 

in livestocck facilities , you would have a midden for manure, compulsory wheelbarrow , straw and a water trough 

 

Ruswarp on the Esk Valley had a loading dock for cattle for its auction mart . it was worked by lever of the branch line . 

its fat mart on a monday and itore mart wednesday , with special sheep or sucker sales other days,

you also get breeding sales and the odd farm implement sale take place throughout the year 

Farmers would often come to Ruswarp  market to buy farm sundries  the same day ,  BATA etc in the village goods yard 

 

there used to be a slaughterhouse in whitby  next too West cliff station , but unsure it was there when the line was open 

 

I think there were  a couple  cattle sidings pens  near whitby town station  but stand corrected . 

 

other  local cattle  markets were likely Seamer and Malton or Stokesley so traffic would go there from the coastal areas i guess 

 

the local hunt included Goathland too , which traditionally hunts south of the Esk only . 

Meets were generally in Villages often not railway linked or at farms /estates . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Not apparent in Midland Wagons - Vol 2 (Essery), post-WW1 there may have been an increase but photos I've seen pre-WW1 don't support this theory in the MR, time for @Compound2632 to adjudicate?

 

Midland Railway cattle wagon diagrams have a note of the nominal tare weight for three cases:

• without pipes
• AVB through pipe
• AVB and Westinghouse through pipe

Calf Vans were fitted with AVB through pipe.

 

However, photographic evidence for through pipes in Midland days appears to be non-existent, so one has to conclude that only a small proportion of cattle wagons were piped. 

 

Looking through the Ian Allan reprint of the Midland's 1903 Time Table book, there's a clear presumption that livestock by passenger train would be conveyed in horseboxes or, for smaller animals, in the guard's van, suitably crated. There were also a small number of Prize Cattle Vans. These vehicles were all passenger-rated stock, rather than goods wagons. (There were only around four times as many cattle wagons as horseboxes.)

 

Turning to Essery & Morgan, The LMS Wagon (I don't have the later two-volume version), it appears that the LMS continued to build a mix of piped and unpiped wagons up to 1931 but all wagons built 1932-5 were vacuum braked. One clue is given by a note to the first lot listed, in fact the final Midland lot authorised in 1922, 300 vehicles of which 136 piped.

 

It's possible that the LMS had a policy of fitting older cattle wagons with through pipes. All the LMS period photos of LNWR cattle wagons in LNWR Wagons Vol. 1 show piped vehicles; alternatively, it may just be that unpiped vehicles were withdrawn sooner.

 

However, there's always an exception. Here's a Bedford to St Pancras train, c. 1918:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 60025.]

Edited October 29, 2021 by Compound2632

[moorlander]

dont forget any wagons for Ruswarp  from  the coast route , had to go down from prospect hill into Town , then upto Ruswarp. And vice versa for  any traffic to the coastal route .  I think we only looking at 2=3 wagons in the cattle siding at Ruswarp  which coud make it interesting shunting any other wagons for the special sales  . Though the line was dual not single as nowadays.

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, Winander said:

I thought cattle wagons were through fitted with pipes to be able to run in passenger trains? Livestock carriage was a valuable trade for railway companies and I'm sure the modest effort and cost of a pipe and fittings was profitable.

Through pipe just allows you not to worry whereabouts it is in the fitted head of a train. 

 

It's still unsafe if it's behind the Guards Van because if the couplings give way, it will still run away wrong direction, even though the front of the train should stop because the vac pipe snaps.

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It's still unsafe if it's behind the Guards Van because if the couplings give way, it will still run away wrong direction, even though the front of the train should stop because the vac pipe snaps.

 

Vide the photo I posted. Midland period, so the cattle wagons are piped not fitted; they're at the head of the train.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

The Brill tramway/branch was not Met/GC, it was Met alone, I'm 90% certain. The photo I'm thinking of was taken on the Qauinton road to Verney Junction section, which is to all intents and purposes flat.

Kevin a touch of pedantry is, I'm afraid, about to be landed - and it also surprised me.   According to the RCH 'junction diagrams'  Quainton Road - Brill was MET & GC Jt Committee (Oxford & Aylesbury Tram).    Quainton Road - Verney Jcn was MET & GC Jt Committee.

 

The Brill branch (worked as we both know solely, and officially under the Jt Committee agreement, by the MET) was serviced by Mixed Trains although i don't know if that applied to all trains or if some ran as Passenger Trains (only).

[eastglosmog]

In its last years, when there was no other traffic, empty cattle wagons on the Tralee and Dingle were moved from Tralee to Dingle on the Friday before the monthly cattle fair at Dingle on the Saturday. There was enough traffic for one or two full trains, the first apparently ran eastwards to Tralee just after midday on the Saturday.  Occasionally an extra short train would run as well. 

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

In its last years, when there was no other traffic, empty cattle wagons on the Tralee and Dingle were moved from Tralee to Dingle on the Friday before the monthly cattle fair at Dingle on the Saturday. There was enough traffic for one or two full trains, the first apparently ran eastwards to Tralee just after midday on the Saturday.  Occasionally an extra short train would run as well. 

Ah well now, if you're talking Irish lines, the Listowel & Ballybunion was the one to study.  The load on rolling stock had to be balanced on the monorail, so if you had an odd number of cattle, you put the odd one in one side of a carriage and two fat ladies on the other side 

 

Begorrah!

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Ah well now, if you're talking Irish lines,

 

Also the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties which eked out an existence on the cattle traffic to Scotland and Northern England for many years, until the closure in 1958 of the Great Northern's Londonderry line via Enniskillen, the junction, killed it off.

[eastglosmog]

13 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Ah well now, if you're talking Irish lines, the Listowel & Ballybunion was the one to study.  The load on rolling stock had to be balanced on the monorail, so if you had an odd number of cattle, you put the odd one in one side of a carriage and two fat ladies on the other side 

 

Begorrah!

You needed two fat ladies rather than 3 slim ones so that they could be balanced one either side on the way back?

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

You needed two fat ladies rather than 3 slim ones so that they could be balanced one either side on the way back?

 

Either that or you walked back with one of the slim ones...

[doilum]

Even for a small mining town Normanton had a ridiculous number of butcher's shops. It was also a designated halt for the watering and vetinary inspection of the Irish cattle trains. Coincidence?

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, doilum said:

Even for a small mining town Normanton had a ridiculous number of butcher's shops. It was also a designated halt for the watering and vetinary inspection of the Irish cattle trains. Coincidence?

 

It was a major junction - where the L&Y joined the Midland - originally the Manchester & Leeds gaining access to Leeds over the North Midland line, both being Stephenson lines taking the long way round to avoid gradients. It had been the place where Midland Scotch expresses had laid over for the dinner stop before the introduction of dining cars in the early 90s, so it seems reasonable that cattle should be offered equivalent facilities.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It was a major junction - where the L&Y joined the Midland - originally the Manchester & Leeds gaining access to Leeds over the North Midland line, both being Stephenson lines taking the long way round to avoid gradients. It had been the place where Midland Scotch expresses had laid over for the dinner stop before the introduction of dining cars in the early 90s, so it seems reasonable that cattle should be offered equivalent facilities.

The Midland Railway - the Best Route, competing on quality of service .....

[MarkC]

All joking apart, the Midland did have a reputation for taking good care of the cattle entrusted to its care - witness the extensive facilities at Heysham for cattle to recover from the sea crossing from Ireland, before their onward journey by rail.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, MarkC said:

All joking apart, the Midland did have a reputation for taking good care of the cattle entrusted to its care - witness the extensive facilities at Heysham for cattle to recover from the sea crossing from Ireland, before their onward journey by rail.

 

Commercial advantage? One has to consider that Heysham was laid out in 1904, by which time there had been over half-a-century of legislation and Board of Trade regulation on the welfare of livestock in transit, so the company had the advantage of knowledge of best practice, and a clean sheet.

 

The Midland's reported stock of cattle wagons was 1,484 from 1884 to 1903*, it then rose by 12% to 1,664, indicating the importance of the Irish traffic through Heysham. (To give a sense of proportion, cattle wagons were about 1.4% of the company's total wagon fleet.) There were further increases in stock on the acquisition of the LTSR in 1912 and the division of the S&DJR goods stock with the LSWR in 1914, reaching a peak of 1,910 at the end of 1915. After the Great War there was a significant decline in stock, with only 1,228 passing to the LMS at the end of 1922. [Source: MR Half Yearly / Yearly Reports and Accounts, Midland Railway Study Centre Items 88-1971-384/94, 88-1971-384/95, 17901-52.]

 

*Actually 1,485 until the end of 1895; I'm wondering if there was an accident victim that was not replaced!

Edited November 1, 2021 by Compound2632
clarity

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Commercial advantage? One has to consider that Heysham was laid out in 1904, by which time there had been over half-a-century of legislation and Board of Trade regulation on the welfare of livestock in transit, so the company had the advantage of knowledge of best practice, and a clean sheet.

 

The Midland's reported stock of cattle wagons was 1,484 from 1884 to 1903*, it then rose by 12% to 1,664, indicating the importance of the Irish traffic through Heysham. (To give a sense of proportion, that was about 1.4% of the company's total wagon fleet.) There were further increases in stock on the acquisition of the LTSR in 1912 and the division of the S&DJR goods stock with the LSWR in 1914, reaching a peak of 1,910 at the end of 1915. After the Great War there was a significant decline in stock, with only 1,228 passing to the LMS at the end of 1922. [Source: MR Half Yearly / Yearly Reports and Accounts, Midland Railway Study Centre Items 88-1971-384/94, 88-1971-384/95, 17901-52.]

 

*Actually 1,485 until the end of 1895; I'm wondering if there was an accident victim that was not replaced!

Hi Stephen

 

You're absolutely right there - but AIUI the facilities at Heysham were second to none. Why not, when building a new port & terminal?

 

Given the Midland's reputation for doing things, well, just better than their rivals (abolishing 2nd Class & giving 3rd Class passengers good seating etc before anyone else is a prime example) then why not do the job properly? As you point out, the Irish cattle trade was very important, and back then, reputation was a precious commodity.

[Aire Head]

On 29/10/2021 at 16:25, The Stationmaster said:

However I can vaguely recall seeing an Instruction regarding attaching unfitted vehicles to passenger trains somewhere else in the past and probably of a similar vintage to the MR Instruction

 

I'm pretty sure there is something in the LMS book as late as 1937 will dig it out when I get home.

[Aire Head]

Right I couldn't find the section last night however I distinctly recall it stated that a single unfitted vehicle could be attached to the rear of a local passenger train and required that a screw link was used to attach said vehicle.