Points Position Indicator Advice Please?

[amdaley]

Hello Everyone.

Has anyone used either of these ?

 

http://www.micromini..._Indicator.html

http://www.heathcote...%20INDICATOR-SO

 

How did you find them ? Any advice on them please ?

[Kenton]

Hello Everyone.

Has anyone used either of these ?

 

http://www.micromini..._Indicator.html

http://www.heathcote...%20INDICATOR-SO

 

How did you find them ? Any advice on them please ?

Not used either - never had to as indicators are easily add to both power and spare switch if you use Tortoise point motors.

 

So I assume you are not.

I would add that I have used several of the Heathcote Electronics products and have been well satisfied with them - so that would be my choice (if I had to make it) I would expect it to do what it says.

[naugytrax]

Neither of these devices actually shows the position of the point blades. They appear to be expensive ways to show which push-button was activated most recently, which is not the same thing because some electro-mechanical glitch may well have prevented the points from throwing properly.

Much better to run a few more wires and display an indication from the actual turnout motor, as Kenton suggests. If you don't have Tortoises (too bad!) you can fit the PL-15 Twin Microswitch to Peco turnout motors.

[Theakerr]

I use Peco or Seep motors. Position indicator is a simple one line in two out micro switch (lever switch) that contacts the tie bar and wired to a light.

[beast66606]

Neither of these devices actually shows the position of the point blades. They appear to be expensive ways to show which push-button was activated most recently, which is not the same thing because some electro-mechanical glitch may well have prevented the points from throwing properly.

Much better to run a few more wires and display an indication from the actual turnout motor, as Kenton suggests. If you don't have Tortoises (too bad!) you can fit the PL-15 Twin Microswitch to Peco turnout motors.

 

(my bold)

 

Even this doesn't show the position of the point blades, only the motor.

[amdaley]

Hello Everyone.

Has anyone used either of these ?

 

http://www.micromini..._Indicator.html

http://www.heathcote...%20INDICATOR-SO

 

How did you find them ? Any advice on them please ?

 

No One seems to have found the perfect system. I suppose if you look carefully at every system you will find a fault with it. The cheapest & maybe the best system is micro switches sited next to the tie bar & operated by the tie bar when the point moves. This is fine for hidden sidings where there is no need to have to hide the micro switches but there may be a problem hiding the micro switches in open areas. The panels I flagged above give an indication which is purely electronic & do not prove that the actual point blades moved to the desired position. Incidentally we are talking about solenoid point motors here as with stall type motors there is no need for any extra switches etc.

[Kenton]

(my bold)

 

Even this doesn't show the position of the point blades, only the motor.

But you are in real serious trouble if the Tortoise motor has switched and the point hasn't moved - I've not heard of the spring wire escaping the tie bar and the only thing I can think of that might happen would be an item of stock obstructing the point.

[28XX]

No One seems to have found the perfect system. I suppose if you look carefully at every system you will find a fault with it. The cheapest & maybe the best system is micro switches sited next to the tie bar & operated by the tie bar when the point moves. This is fine for hidden sidings where there is no need to have to hide the micro switches but there may be a problem hiding the micro switches in open areas. The panels I flagged above give an indication which is purely electronic & do not prove that the actual point blades moved to the desired position. Incidentally we are talking about solenoid point motors here as with stall type motors there is no need for any extra switches etc.

 

Just like the real thing then, as anyone who has cured a set of switches 'out of correspondance' with a 2lb hammer applied to the switch rail, when a bit of bog-roll has got trapped in it, will testify.

[amdaley]

Just like the real thing then, as anyone who has cured a set of switches 'out of correspondance' with a 2lb hammer applied to the switch rail, when a bit of bog-roll has got trapped in it, will testify.

 

I've never had to use a 2lb hammer on my layout even though I have been tempted at times but as you have indicated nothing is foolproof.

[Suzie]

Both of those devices look a bit pricey for what they do. I would recommend an alternative to these as something like the Maplin N38AW latching relay which will do the same job but at £3.73 per point.

 

As has already been said all of these solutions just give feedback of which button has been pressed. If you have live frogs and common return wiring a high frequency lighting unit could be employed to good effect to give you feedback of the actual point position, and will probably cost less than all of the above solutions:-

 

 

You will have to experiment with component values, but 5mm AC LEDs (which don't need the reverse protection diodes) are available from Rapid (56-1250 or 56-1260), resistors around 680R will probably do and the capacitor will depend on the frequency of the HF lighting module.

[Baby Deltic]

I'm using Seep motors with the built in switch and 2 coil DPDT 'flip flop' relays to set the route indicator and switch the frog on the point at the same time.

[amdaley]

Both of those devices look a bit pricey for what they do. I would recommend an alternative to these as something like the Maplin N38AW latching relay which will do the same job but at £3.73 per point.

 

As has already been said all of these solutions just give feedback of which button has been pressed. If you have live frogs and common return wiring a high frequency lighting unit could be employed to good effect to give you feedback of the actual point position, and will probably cost less than all of the above solutions:-

 

 

You will have to experiment with component values, but 5mm AC LEDs (which don't need the reverse protection diodes) are available from Rapid (56-1250 or 56-1260), resistors around 680R will probably do and the capacitor will depend on the frequency of the HF lighting module.

 

Hi Susie.

Sorry but my knowledge is rather limited on electronics so the high frequency lighting unit means nothing to me but a question for you.

I run DCC with a track voltage of 14.2volts. Is it possible to use the ac led's that you have indicated from Rapid with resistors to show an indication on a panel which way my Peco electrofrog points are set to ? Sorry if this question makes little sense but its the best way i can put it.

What I am trying to do is to show on little local panels which way the points are set electrically in as simple a manner as possible.

[amdaley]

I'm using Seep motors with the built in switch and 2 coil DPDT 'flip flop' relays to set the route indicator and switch the frog on the point at the same time.

 

Hi Baby Deltic.

As I said to Susie my electronics knowledge is limited. I know what you are saying I just can't get my head around how you did it so a diagram of how you did it would be of great help.At least I can follow a diagram.

[cromptonnut]

Hi Susie.

Sorry but my knowledge is rather limited on electronics so the high frequency lighting unit means nothing to me but a question for you.

I run DCC with a track voltage of 14.2volts.

 

I can't help you with your points position indicator problem - however I can add the useful comment of "don't ever use a high frequency lighting unit with DCC" !

[beast66606]

But you are in real serious trouble if the Tortoise motor has switched and the point hasn't moved - I've not heard of the spring wire escaping the tie bar and the only thing I can think of that might happen would be an item of stock obstructing the point.

 

Like a train, some loose ballast, or just a sticky point for example - detecting blades on a model is totally pointless

[Kenton]

- detecting blades on a model is totally pointless

Not quite ...

When you come to switch on a layout and power up the control panel after a power outage or break for food/drink/sleep/other biological functions

The control panel point indicators can be used to indicate the current/last theoretical position.

 

They can also be a useful aid to new users of a panel (or the more forgetful of us) of selected route indication.

 

All reasons I just prefer the pair of colour LEDs in the power to the Tortoise approach as it uses virtually zero length of additional wiring amd you still have a spare switch on the motor.

 

But if you have an obstruction in the switch rail of a point then probably the best indicator is a derailment.

[beast66606]

Not quite ...

When you come to switch on a layout and power up the control panel after a power outage or break for food/drink/sleep/other biological functions

The control panel point indicators can be used to indicate the current/last theoretical position.

 

They can also be a useful aid to new users of a panel (or the more forgetful of us) of selected route indication.

 

All reasons I just prefer the pair of colour LEDs in the power to the Tortoise approach as it uses virtually zero length of additional wiring amd you still have a spare switch on the motor.

 

But if you have an obstruction in the switch rail of a point then probably the best indicator is a derailment.

 

But Kenton - I said detecting the blades was pointless not indicating the position they should be in - darn that invisible ink again (although it looks visible to me - and even in your quote I can read it)

[Kenton]

But Kenton - I said detecting the blades was pointless not indicating the position they should be in - darn that invisible ink again (although it looks visible to me - and even in your quote I can read it)

:D

and I am guessing that this is what is actually required by the OP as that is all the two suggested mechanisms will do.

which is - as we started - can be more cheaply done using other methods.

[beast66606]

:D

and I am guessing that this is what is actually required by the OP as that is all the two suggested mechanisms will do.

which is - as we started - can be more cheaply done using other methods.

 

Agreed

[Suzie]

Hi Suzie.

Sorry but my knowledge is rather limited on electronics so the high frequency lighting unit means nothing to me but a question for you.

I run DCC with a track voltage of 14.2volts. Is it possible to use the ac led's that you have indicated from Rapid with resistors to show an indication on a panel which way my Peco electrofrog points are set to ? Sorry if this question makes little sense but its the best way i can put it.

What I am trying to do is to show on little local panels which way the points are set electrically in as simple a manner as possible.

 

If you are using DCC you don't need the HF unit or capacitors, track power will be adequate, they are only required in legacy DC situations. You did pose your question in the non-DCC section!

 

 

If you are using the points as they come you will be detecting the position of the blades, both LEDs on will mean that the point is stuck in the middle somewhere.

[beast66606]

If you are using DCC you don't need the HF unit or capacitors, track power will be adequate, they are only required in legacy DC situations.

 

 

If you are using the points as they come you will be detecting the position of the blades, both LEDs on will mean that the point is stuck in the middle somewhere.

 

If I understand your diagram correctly you are relying on the point blades for routing the electrical feed - that rules it out immediately for me, point blades rarely fail mechanically but they do fail electrically when "weathered" - I'd sooner deal with the very very very odd occasion when a tiebar fails manually than have frequent occasions when the hand of god is required as the blades aren't making contact.

[Suzie]

If I understand your diagram correctly you are relying on the point blades for routing the electrical feed - that rules it out immediately for me, point blades rarely fail mechanically but they do fail electrically when "weathered" - I'd sooner deal with the very very very odd occasion when a tiebar fails manually than have frequent occasions when the hand of god is required as the blades aren't making contact.

I don't rely on the blades either (although a PL13 is not that much more reliable!), but if you do rely on the blades, you get the bonus of an indication as to how well the blades are making contact and a visual indication that it might be worth trying to move the point again to get better contact.

 

 

There are more complex electrical methods that can be used to detect blade position when the blades are linked to the stock rails, but they involve the use of inductive occupancy detectors in the links and are therefore only for the seriously keen. I find frog polarity is good enough especially when I use microswitches on the tiebars.

 

I have a couple of alternative circuits that can do the same as above but with Bi-colour and tri-colour LEDS to give a single indicator that changes colour depending on the state of the point if anyone is interested.

 

 

[amdaley]

I don't rely on the blades either (although a PL13 is not that much more reliable!), but if you do rely on the blades, you get the bonus of an indication as to how well the blades are making contact and a visual indication that it might be worth trying to move the point again to get better contact.

 

 

There are more complex electrical methods that can be used to detect blade position when the blades are linked to the stock rails, but they involve the use of inductive occupancy detectors in the links and are therefore only for the seriously keen. I find frog polarity is good enough especially when I use microswitches on the tiebars.

 

I have a couple of alternative circuits that can do the same as above but with Bi-colour and tri-colour LEDS to give a single indicator that changes colour depending on the state of the point if anyone is interested.

 

I'm interested. If its a diagram I've some chance of understanding it

[beast66606]

I find frog polarity is good enough

 

Back to the (equivalent of the) external switch on the motor (which works just as well) - or have I missed something as I still don't see your circuit actually detecting the point blades

[Suzie]

Back to the (equivalent of the) external switch on the motor (which works just as well) - or have I missed something as I still don't see your circuit actually detecting the point blades

It is simply if you are using the point blades to switch the frog, the circuit will indicate the position of the blades (Red they are one way, green the other, both LEDs on the blades are both in the middle somewhere or not making contact, both LEDs off something has broken and they are shorting the supply!). If you are using an external switch to change frog polarity, the circuit will just show the position of the external switch.Here are the other versions that have a single indicator that just changes colour. In both of these all fail conditions are shown by the LEDs being extinguished unlike the circuit above.