Points Position Indicator Advice Please?

[beast66606]

It is simply if you are using the point blades to switch the frog, the circuit will indicate the position of the blades

 

Yes I can see that - but you said you aren't relying on the blades

[Grovenor]

Yes I can see that - but you said you aren't relying on the blades

Beast, you are just being deliberately obtuse, and probably making others think its confusing as well .

Suzie explained it very clearly.

Cheers

Keith

[beast66606]

Beast, you are just being deliberately obtuse, and probably making others think its confusing as well .

Suzie explained it very clearly.

Cheers

Keith

 

The blades are not detected by the circuit unless they feed the frog - simples.

[Grovenor]

The blades are not detected by the circuit unless they feed the frog - simples.

Which Suzie explained quite clearly at least twice

Cheers

Keith

[beast66606]

Which Suzie explained quite clearly at least twice

Cheers

Keith

 

But the discussion I was having, which Suzie replied to, WAS about detecting the blades - maybe my posts needed warming so the text shows through

[amdaley]

If you are using DCC you don't need the HF unit or capacitors, track power will be adequate, they are only required in legacy DC situations. You did pose your question in the non-DCC section!

 

 

If you are using the points as they come you will be detecting the position of the blades, both LEDs on will mean that the point is stuck in the middle somewhere.

 

Hi Susie.

I did post in the non DCC section because I had no intention at the time of using DCC with the points. It just came up that it was a possibility to use DCC. I was only trying to find the best way to have a led indication on some small control panels without being to complicated. If I can use DCC in this way fine if not no problem. I am grateful for all the suggestion I have received so far.

[Donw]

I think I agree with Beast on this. You have a choice the only real way to detect that the blades have moved is to depend on them making contact. However the reliability of the blade contact is the most problem prone area. So you can detect the blades at the expense of a higher failure rate. I'll stick with indicating the switch poisition and the blades bonded to the stock rail.

Donw

[amdaley]

I think I agree with Beast on this. You have a choice the only real way to detect that the blades have moved is to depend on them making contact. However the reliability of the blade contact is the most problem prone area. So you can detect the blades at the expense of a higher failure rate. I'll stick with indicating the switch poisition and the blades bonded to the stock rail.

Donw

 

I would agree that the best way to indicate whether the blades have moved or not is to bond the blades to the stock rail & take it that if the polarity of the frog changes then you can be reasonably sure that the point blades have gone over. Point blade contact is far to flimsy to be relied on. Perhaps more difficulty to take a frog reading if you're using DCC ?

[beast66606]

On Peco points there is a wiper which will give a false clear, the contact may have been made but the blade could still be standing off - hence my statement that detecting the blades is totally pointless, there is nothing wrong with the circuit provided but its a frog polarity detector - which may be what is wanted - but the extra switch on a tortoise (for example) can do an equivalent job or if the points are changed by a switch on a panel an extra set of contacts could also be used to do it.

[amdaley]

On Peco points there is a wiper which will give a false clear, the contact may have been made but the blade could still be standing off - hence my statement that detecting the blades is totally pointless, there is nothing wrong with the circuit provided but its a frog polarity detector - which may be what is wanted - but the extra switch on a tortoise (for example) can do an equivalent job or if the points are changed by a switch on a panel an extra set of contacts could also be used to do it.

 

Most failures on Peco point wipers seems to happen because the wiper droops down & fails to make contact. There is as you said the possibility that the wiper might go up instead & therefore cause the blade to stand off. Perhaps the best solution is to bond the blades to the stock rail & break off the littler wiper.

While on the subject of points here is something which might interest people. I don't know anything about them,just picked up the link somewhere else.

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/home.html

[Jellicoe]

I make up a CDU for each point. It only requires a capacitor and a couple of diodes and means that on-on switches can be used with no centre-off position. The switch toggle shows which way the point is set just like a lever frame.

[peter jf]

To answer your original question, I have 3 of the Heathcote units on my large DC layout. I was unsure at first, but now think they are brillient units. Whilst a number of comments above are valid, I have not had any problems with false indication. The outstanding advantage I have found is much simplified wiring. Wiring units in control panel next to press button switches saves running wires all over the layout. good luck.

[amdaley]

To answer your original question, I have 3 of the Heathcote units on my large DC layout. I was unsure at first, but now think they are brillient units. Whilst a number of comments above are valid, I have not had any problems with false indication. The outstanding advantage I have found is much simplified wiring. Wiring units in control panel next to press button switches saves running wires all over the layout. good luck.

 

Thanks for your reply. The reason I thought of these items was because I wanted things as simple as possible.The same applies to my reason of having little local control panels which as you said reduces wiring & also the fact that I use wireless & like to follow the train around the layout. I have noticed that some posters are really whiz when it comes to electronics.I don't really have time to devote to making circuits etc. Can I ask you how you wired your control panels with switches etc.

[peter jf]

I have 2 push to make switch buttons to work each set of points on my loops. The push buttons are on my control panel. Along side each button is an orange LED. Wiring is simplicty itself. One wire to push button. One wire to LED and back to unit. Connect AC supply to unit and away you go.

Heathcote have a number of diagrams on their web site and they all work!

[amdaley]

I have 2 push to make switch buttons to work each set of points on my loops. The push buttons are on my control panel. Along side each button is an orange LED. Wiring is simplicty itself. One wire to push button. One wire to LED and back to unit. Connect AC supply to unit and away you go.

Heathcote have a number of diagrams on their web site and they all work!

 

What I was hoping to do was to have leds which would show green for the route selected & red for the restricted route. i believe the Heathcote item will do this for me.I will take another look at their site.

[peter jf]

Yes, they will do what you want

[Pete the Elaner]

What I was hoping to do was to have leds which would show green for the route selected & red for the restricted route.

I've done this using the 2nd switch of a Tortoise. Where I had 1 point leading into another, it got a little more complicated requiring the use of 4 diodes.

I do have a video of my panel in action & you can see the delay between the switch being thrown & the indicators changing. At nearly 9MB, I can't post it . As has been mentioned, this shows you the motor has moved & would not be accurate if the point has suffered a physical failure.

 

A downside is that this required more wiring than running this off the panel switches themselves. I had over-specified my connectors anyway so this was not a problem for me.

If you wanted to use the panel switches for indication, decide how common is a failed connection or motor? Not very although I am sure it does happen (but would wait until your first show to do so ) but you would soon notice & the fault itself would be more of an issue than the indication error.

 

Also, I have seen PL-15's mentioned. Unless these are more reliable than PL-13s, I would treat them with caution. I have used PL-13s in the past but have suffered reliability issues. Again, these worked ok until an exhibition

 

I bought a few microswitches for this from Rapid & are keen to give them a try.

 

Maybe you could try what you are looking at with a micro-layout? Good excuse for some different scenery

[amdaley]

I've done this using the 2nd switch of a Tortoise. Where I had 1 point leading into another, it got a little more complicated requiring the use of 4 diodes.

I do have a video of my panel in action & you can see the delay between the switch being thrown & the indicators changing. At nearly 9MB, I can't post it . As has been mentioned, this shows you the motor has moved & would not be accurate if the point has suffered a physical failure.

 

A downside is that this required more wiring than running this off the panel switches themselves. I had over-specified my connectors anyway so this was not a problem for me.

If you wanted to use the panel switches for indication, decide how common is a failed connection or motor? Not very although I am sure it does happen (but would wait until your first show to do so ) but you would soon notice & the fault itself would be more of an issue than the indication error.

 

Also, I have seen PL-15's mentioned. Unless these are more reliable than PL-13s, I would treat them with caution. I have used PL-13s in the past but have suffered reliability issues. Again, these worked ok until an exhibition

 

I bought a few microswitches for this from Rapid & are keen to give them a try.

 

Maybe you could try what you are looking at with a micro-layout? Good excuse for some different scenery

 

Perhaps you can send on the Video file by e mail?

[beast66606]

Perhaps you can send on the Video file by e mail?

 

Or upload it to YouTube ?

[Pete the Elaner]

Or upload it to YouTube ?

I'll see what I can do to drop the quality & shoot the vid again.

At the moment, the wrong boards are up.

[gwrman]

Hi, you could always use DCC Concepts Masterswitches on the points allowing frog switching, LED's on the panel and control of signals http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/index.php?manufacturers_id=55

 

Nigel

[amdaley]

Hi, you could always use DCC Concepts Masterswitches on the points allowing frog switching, LED's on the panel and control of signals http://www.dccsuppli...facturers_id=55

 

Nigel

 

Hi Nigel.

I have a collection of various MASTERswitches which I plan to use around the rest of the layout.

What I am trying to do at the moment is to control 8 points,4 on each side leading to & from 6 hidden loops. I need to be able to switch these points from either side of a central baseboard so I will basically need 2 sets of controls for each point. I am going to site a little control panel at either side of this central baseboard so that I can change the points no matter what side I am at.The points are all fitted with either Peco or Seep motors with attached switches which are used to change the frog polarity.

What I am trying to do is set up some form of indication on these 2 control panels which would show me the position of the points. I could use MASTERswitches but I am trying to keep costs down if possible & use a simpler system. My original post was asking people if they had used either of the two units I mentioned in my first post but the thread like so many others has grown in several directions. Some very good suggestions have been made including building various indicators from components. I don't have the time or necessary technical skill to construct these. A thing to remember as well is that where I live nothing is available.Everything I need has to be brought in from outside the area & often outside the country.Its a beautiful area to live but there's a price to be paid for that beauty:P However having spent most of my life in a city I wouldn't swap it for all the tea in China

[beast66606]

I'll see what I can do to drop the quality & shoot the vid again.

At the moment, the wrong boards are up.

 

YouTube allows up to 2GB files so no need to lower quality and/or reshoot.

[amdaley]

YouTube allows up to 2GB files so no need to lower quality and/or reshoot.

 

I think he said the files were nearly 9Mb. Thats a big file.

[beast66606]

I think he said the files were nearly 9Mb. Thats a big file.

 

9mb is less than one of my photos , the movies I upload to YouTube are typically 100mb +