1960's Milk Trains

[jointline]

I was wondering what would have been a typical vehicle used in a 1960's WR milk train to accomodate the Guard. I suppose a Hawksworth BG might have been an option or a Mk1 equivalent perhaps? Or was it a case of any available suitable vehicle being marshalled in the train? The photos I have looked at show some sort of van but they are usually far enough from the camera to identify what they are.

 

Some trains certainly had specific vehicles attached, and the start and destination were written on the side of the full brake. I can remember seeing both Wootton Bassett and Penzance written on the sides.

 

The vehicle numbers were sometimes specified in the train make up; eg the 1.05. a.m. Milk Empties , West London to Swindon, (Summer 1960) specified Brake Van 117 or 321. The former was a diagram K41, the latter a diagram K45.

 

There's a really good shot of a King on a milk empties train, with about twenty on, in Brian Morrison's Book: Steam Around London: The Postwar Years.

[chrisf]

The best article I know about milk traffic on the WR is "Home with the milk" by R C Riley which was in the March 1959 Trains Illustrated. More recently BRILL Annual no. 4 had an article dealing thoroughly with the rise and decline of milk traffic on all regions.

 

Chris

[Karhedron]

I have found a shot of the bottling plant at Merton here.

 

http://gallery62603.fotopic.net/p58745379.html

[Fat Controller]

A recent purchase has made me revive this topic.

I've just bought a copy of the excellent 'The Red Dragon.. and other old friends' which has many interesting photos in it. Amongst them are some which show how the creamery at Llangadog was served;-

On pages 292/293 are a pair of photos, taken on 2nd August 1958, of the 7:48 Llanelly- Llangadock (these were the contemporary spellings). The train is composed of two 57xx panniers, an LMS 12t van, three road-rail milk tankers, and some unidentifiable passenger coaches. The train apparently carried passengers to Pontardulais, thence running as a Class C to Llangadock. A locomotive change took place at Pantyffynnon.

This cleared up another mystery- I'd seen photos, taken in Western Cardiff, of an Up milk with some road-rail tanks in it, but couldn't work out where these had come from, as all the Creameries I knew that used rail loaded rail wagons on site.

I presume the tankers were attached to the Up Milk at Felin Fran, where a Landore Castle was booked to replace the Neyland County.

There is another 'Milk Train' shot on page 264, which I find curious. Taken on 22/07/1952, It shows what is claimed to be the Carmarthen- Marshfield milk, composed of a Castle, a Great Western Full Brake, and three Siphon Js. There are no other vehicles present.

[Karhedron]

I have not been able to fin much information about the Marshfield milk. The only other shot I have seen is a mid-60s photo of a class 14 tripping 3 empty tankers to Marshfield. This would have been well after the end of churn traffic so no siphons by that date.

[Fat Controller]

I have not been able to fin much information about the Marshfield milk. The only other shot I have seen is a mid-60s photo of a class 14 tripping 3 empty tankers to Marshfield. This would have been well after the end of churn traffic so no siphons by that date.

Not sure why there'd be a train with Marshfield as its destination. Perhaps the train picked up some tanks there, and was reclassified from there forward- I'm sure Mike can tell us..

I've seen a few shots of the Marshfield services- down empties were dropped off at ADJ, then taken forward to Cardiff, where the trip loco ran round (Marshfield was simply a trailing siding, IIRC). Up traffic was picked up directly from the siding. There were no facilities at the sidings, milk being transhipped direct from road tankers to rail; I saw them being loaded when passing on the SWML on occasion.

[jjnewitt]

A recent purchase has made me revive this topic.

I've just bought a copy of the excellent 'The Red Dragon.. and other old friends' which has many interesting photos in it. Amongst them are some which show how the creamery at Llangadog was served;-

On pages 292/293 are a pair of photos, taken on 2nd August 1958, of the 7:48 Llanelly- Llangadock (these were the contemporary spellings). The train is composed of two 57xx panniers, an LMS 12t van, three road-rail milk tankers, and some unidentifiable passenger coaches. The train apparently carried passengers to Pontardulais, thence running as a Class C to Llangadock. A locomotive change took place at Pantyffynnon.

This cleared up another mystery- I'd seen photos, taken in Western Cardiff, of an Up milk with some road-rail tanks in it, but couldn't work out where these had come from, as all the Creameries I knew that used rail loaded rail wagons on site.

I presume the tankers were attached to the Up Milk at Felin Fran, where a Landore Castle was booked to replace the Neyland County.

There is another 'Milk Train' shot on page 264, which I find curious. Taken on 22/07/1952, It shows what is claimed to be the Carmarthen- Marshfield milk, composed of a Castle, a Great Western Full Brake, and three Siphon Js. There are no other vehicles present.

Ro-Rail tanks were quite commom on workings from South Wales up until their demise in the early sixties. If you look through John Hodge's books on the South Wales Main line there are a number of photos of the Whitland to Kensington (mainly) and they feature quite often. Going by the diagrams of some of the vehicles around them in the formation most of them seemed to be United Dairies vehicles which means they would have came from somewhere other than Llangadock, which was CWS. I suspect that some of the time the ro-rail tanks were simply used as 2000(?) gallon milk tanks.

 

I'm not convinced by the caption in the Red Dragon about the Camarthen to Marshfield milk servce. A working timetable for the period would be good. It could be possible that there was a working from Camarthen to Marshfield that then went on to London. It could be that the Siphon J's were carying other dairy products (?) or were being moved in conjunction with something else and that the service was in fact running empty at that point. I believe that the services ran whether there were any milk tanks to haul or not. There's a picture in one of John Hodge's SWML books of a Grange going past Margam on a milk service with just a full brake in tow so that the brake van was kept in it's circuit.

 

Before the advent of MAS the Up (full) Marshfield services reversed in the station and connected with London services at Cardiff. There's a nice picture in the South Wales Main Line Volume 1 of a Large Prarie pulling half a dozen milk tanks along the down main heading for Cardiff. Once the resignalling had been completed the trains could not reverse at Marshfield so, until the late 60sat least, propelled the milk tanks along the down main to Cardiff. I've seen a picture of a Teddy Bear doing this taken at the Rumney river bridge in 1966. Ther's also a nice sequence of pictures in the Power of the Hymeks showing a Hymek arriving at Marshfield with a couple of empty tanks along the Up main and then departing brake van first along the Down main with three full milk tanks. I have no idea if they connected with the London services at Pengam or Newtown or maybe even at the milk depot opposite Canton loco. Whilst on the subject of Marshfield the operation there was started by the rather grandly titled Cambrian United Dairies which became/was part of United Dairies and laterly of course Unigate.

 

Justin

[jjnewitt]

Thining further about the Llangadock service if it ran as class C from Pontardulais then it's likely to have been a full service with the milk originating in West Wales somewhere and so wouldn't have gone anywhere near Cardiff. This ties in to me reading somewhere that the facility at Llangadock didn't send much milk out by rail but instead recived it. I can't remember what the creamery specialised in.

 

Justin

[The Stationmaster]

Not sure why there'd be a train with Marshfield as its destination. Perhaps the train picked up some tanks there, and was reclassified from there forward- I'm sure Mike can tell us..

I've seen a few shots of the Marshfield services- down empties were dropped off at ADJ, then taken forward to Cardiff, where the trip loco ran round (Marshfield was simply a trailing siding, IIRC). Up traffic was picked up directly from the siding. There were no facilities at the sidings, milk being transhipped direct from road tankers to rail; I saw them being loaded when passing on the SWML on occasion.

Marshfield was a regular loading point for milk tank cars for many years in the Goods Yard on the Up (north) side, it made a trailing connection into the Up Main and after resignalling the only other connections left were the Main Lines trailing crossover.  At an earlier date there had also been Up & Down refuge sidings off the Mains and the latter was also accessible from the Down Relief.  I can definitely recall hearing of a Marshfield starting Up milk train in the 1960s.

 

Incidentally propelling of up to 6 fitted vehicles was permitted between Marshfield and signals C16/C116/C316/C416 (which I think is probably the General or maybe Long Dyke) in clear weather.

[jjnewitt]

A bit more information on the photos I refered to earlier now I've had chance to get to my books.

The picture of the Large Prarie is on page 2 of The South Wales Main Line Volume 1.The loco carries the target H14 and is hauling 5 milk tanks (4 GWR and 1 LMS, all platform fitted) and a Toad along the Down Main near Marshfield.

The picture of the Grange on an empty up milk train is on page 43 of The South Wales Main Line Volume 4.

The picture of the Teddy Bear I refered to was published in Hornby Magaizine's review of the Heljan Class 14. It's dated 8th June 1966 and shows the Teddy bear propelling 4 platform fitted tanks (1 LMS, 2 GWR and 1 SR) and a BR brake van along the Down Main approaching Rumney river bridge.

The pictures of the Hymek at Marshfield are on page 93 of The Power of the Hymeks. They are dated 18th August 1968. The full service consits of three tanks (2 LMS and a GWR) and a Stanier brake van about to set off along the Down Main for Cardiff.

 

Justin

[chrisf]

I have not seen the Red Dragon book mentioned by Fat Controller but I do have, in my modest collection, a working timetable for Section F for winter 1955-56. This covers the South Wales main line west of St Brides, so includes Marshfield, and the Central Wales line. From what it says I cannot help wondering whether the caption writer has confused Llangadock with Ffairfach.

 

In that WTT the 7.48 am from Llanelly is shown as Class B as far as Pontardulais where after a stop of 18 minutes it becomes a Class C and proceeds to Ffairfach, arriving at 8.52 am. I rather think that the milk tanks it conveyed were empty. The return working appears to be the 12.5 pm Ffairfach - Pantyffynnon, arr 12.14 pm. One might have thought that loaded tanks would be despatched expeditiously, perhaps by the 12.36 passenger to LLanelly which originated from Brynamman West. However, they appear to have been conveyed by the 2.15 pm Llandovery - Llanelly which called at Pantyffynnon from 3.13 to 3.17 pm as there is a note in the timetable which says that two minutes extra are allowed to Llanelly when milk tanks are attached at Pantyffynnon. [OK, spell checker, you can have a rest now.] This train was due into Llanelly at 3.41 pm without milk tanks or 3.43 pm with them. The 3.50 pm Whitland - Kensington milk called at Llanelly betwen 4.58 pm and 5.11 pm and I deduce that this is how the loaded tanks were taken forward.

 

As for Marshfield, precious little is shown to call there. The Welsh Railways Research Circle's journal published a major feature on Marshfield some time ago. I promised Justin a scan of it some time back and must apologise to him for not having done it yet.

 

Chris

Edited March 22, 2013 by chrisf

[chrisf]

A trained historian never relies on just one source and files his papers tidily so that rules me out on two counts! Directly after my post above I rediscovered two more recent Section F WTTs including the one that applied when the photo in the Red Dragon book was taken. It seems I owe the caption writer an apology.

 

The arrangements in summer 1958 were not quite the same as in winter 1955-56:

 

7.48 am Llanelly arrives Pontardulais 8.3 am, departs 8.20 am. Engines changed at Pantyffynnon 8.27 am on Saturdays only. Train arrives Ffairfach 9.34 am, departs 9.55 am for Llangadock where it arrives 10.7 am. Saturdays excepted leaves Llangadock 11.50 am, calls Ffairfach 12.3 - 12.10 pm, arrives 12.21 pm. The tanks go forward to Llanelly attached to the 2.10 pm ex Llandovery as in the post above, arriving 3.40 pm. On Saturdays only what is described as a milk train departs Llangadock 2.20 pm, takes water at Llandilo 22.22 pm - 2.39 pm, calls Ffairfach 2.46 pm - 2.54 pm, then right away to Llanelly and as described in the post above.

 

In winter 1958-59 a different arrangement applied. The 7.48 am from Llanelly now ran through to Llandovery, arriving 9.50 am. A train described as "milk tanks empty" left Llandovery at 10.30 am, called at Llangadock 10.54 am - 11.4 am and arrived Ffairfach 11.25 am. When required, an engine and brake van left Ffairfach at 1.40 pm, arriving Llangadock 1.55 pm and departing at 2.10 pm with any loaded tanks, arriving Ffairfach 2.33 pm. What was described as a milk train then left Ffairfach at 2.44 pm for Llanelly, arriving 3.40 pm. The 3.50 pm Whitland - Kensington milk still called at Llanelly between 4.58 pm and 5.11 pm.

 

What prompted the timetable changes of winter 1958-59? I would guess that the closure of the passenger service between Pantyffynnon and Brynamman West had something to do with it but whether this was a more economical way of handling the milk traffic is a good question.

 

Chris

Edited March 22, 2013 by chrisf

[jjnewitt]

Further to my postings regarding Marshfield I'd forgotten about my copies of the Winter 63/4 and 64/5 section E, class 1-6 working timetables. In both the only Up milk train is 3A27. In 1963/4 this was the 3.50pm Whitland to Wood Lane and Kensington. By the following year it had been retimed to leave Whitland at 4.15pm. In both cases the train called at Cardiff General and then Severn Tunnel Junction station. It did not call at Marshfield nor at any other points other than the two mentioned. This suggests that the Marshfield milk tanks were attached at Cardiff General or maybe in the sidings opposite Canton at this time. There is no mention of any trains calling at Marshfield in either timetable which suggests the milk tank service was still a trip working as it had been in the fifties. 

 

Justin

[chrisf]

I can shed a bit more light on the 12.55 pm Carmarthen - Marshfield milk, having stumbled across a pic of it. The working was captured by the late great Sid Rickard near St Fagans one day in July 1953 when 5002 Ludlow Castle was hauling a Collett BG [looks like a K41] and a Siphon J. The modus operandi seems to have been that the Siphon J was detached at Cardiff General and one or possibly more empty milk tanks attached. At Marshfield the empty tank was detched and replaced by loaded tank. Now the fun starts! The Castle and its modest train would run east to St Brides where it ran round and returned to Cardiff tender first. The good bit is that it was booked to take over the 3.50 pm Whitland - Kensington milk - complete with the loaded tanks from Ffairfach and Llangadock that we discussed the other day - at Cardiff.

 

When this working ceased I know not but it appears from another rediscovered WTT, for winter 1954-55, that it had been suspended by then with no obvious substitute.

 

Chris

[Karhedron]

 

Was there a bottling plant there

I've only heard of Kenny O acting as an assembly point for milk trains; certainly never heard any mention of a dairy/bottling plant there.

Ah, perhaps that is why I have not been able to find any pictures of it.

 

In the process of looking for something else, I have found that there was in fact an Express Dairies milk depot at Kensington Olympia. It was located on the corner of Sinclair Road and Hofland Road which means it was not directly rail-served as it did not back onto the sidings. See this 1953 map for details.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/102899509

 

Whether it processed milk that came in to Kenny O by train, I am not sure. It was not there in 1928 but it is visible in late 1940s shots.

 

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW022042

 

This suggests it was built in the 1930s at the same time as a lot of rail-served bottling plants such as Wood Lane and Rossmore Road. Presumably the milk came in by road tanker. Was it carried from the station just across the road? Or is the geographic proximity just a red herring?

 

It looks like the building was there until quite recently as it still shows up on Bing maps but the latest google earth shots show it has been demolished in the past couple of years.

 

Here is a shot of main frontage on Sinclair Road. Kensginton Olympia is almost directly behind the viewer, on the opposite side of Sinclair Road.

 

 

Here is a shot of the Hofland Road view. I assume the large door was for tankers and milk floats.

 

[Wickham Green]

In the process of looking for something else, I have found that there was in fact an Express Dairies milk depot at Kensington Olympia. It was located on the corner of Sinclair Road and Hofland Road which means it was not directly rail-served as it did not back onto the sidings. See this 1953 map for details.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/102899509

 

Whether it processed milk that came in to Kenny O by train, I am not sure. It was not there in 1928 but it is visible in late 1940s shots.

 

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW022042

 

This suggests it was built in the 1930s at the same time as a lot of rail-served bottling plants such as Wood Lane and Rossmore Road. Presumably the milk came in by road tanker. Was it carried from the station just across the road? Or is the geographic proximity just a red herring?

 

It looks like the building was there until quite recently as it still shows up on Bing maps but the latest google earth shots show it has been demolished in the past couple of years.

 

Here is a shot of main frontage on Sinclair Road. Kensginton Olympia is almost directly behind the viewer, on the opposite side of Sinclair Road.

 

SinclairRoad.jpg

 

Here is a shot of the Hofland Road view. I assume the large door was for tankers and milk floats.

 

HoflandRoad.jpg

Don't forget some milk traffic was carried in rubber-tyred trailer tanks mounted on railway chassis - could these have been road-hauled to your Kenny O depot ? : I always assumed road haulage was at the 'country' end of the journey - but maybe not !

[Karhedron]

Don't forget some milk traffic was carried in rubber-tyred trailer tanks mounted on railway chassis - could these have been road-hauled to your Kenny O depot ? : I always assumed road haulage was at the 'country' end of the journey - but maybe not !

I think I remember reading somewhere that the road-rail tankers were exclusive to the Co-Op/CWS so probably wouldn't have been running to an Express Dairies depot. Of course, I could be wrong.

[Karhedron]

On 09/10/2018 at 22:04, Karhedron said:

I think I remember reading somewhere that the road-rail tankers were exclusive to the Co-Op/CWS so probably wouldn't have been running to an Express Dairies depot. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

Turns out I was wrong!

 

CWS pioneered the use of Rotanks but were not the only users. In the 1930s, the Kenny O bottling plant was operated by Henry Edwards & Sons Supplies. They had a small fleet of Rotanks which brought in milk from their own creameries at Pipe Gate in Shropshire and Sparkford in Somerset. I have seen a photo of the Henry Edwards & Sons Supplies Rotanks but can't find a scan of it anywhere at the moment.

 

I don't know when the Kenny O bottling plant was acquired by Express Dairies but they also took over the operation of the Pipe Gate creamery so at some point they probably simply bought out HE&S. Whether Express Dairies continued to operate it with Rotanks or simply switched to bringing in milk by lorry is another unknown. After the 1955 ASLEF strike, Express Dairy switched their Frome creamery from rail to road so there would certainly have been ample milk coming into London by this date (and probably earlier).

[jjnewitt]

United Dairies had plenty of Ro-Rail trailers including the SR ones. See:

 

Great Western Wagons Appendix by J H Russell page 87

BR Parcels and Passenger Rated Stock Volume 2 page 67

 

Justin

[Nearholmer]

I think that the bottling plant at South Lambeth/Bricklayers Arms/ Stewart’s Lane was served by trains from Kensington O. That may have been CWS, but I’m not sure.

 

Photo Ben Brooksbank commons licensed.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Nearholmer