Class 04 Haulage Capacity

[Rods_of_Revolution]

Hi,

 

I was wondering what the maximum capacity haulage-wise of the Class 04 was, both for a fitted and unfitted train? Is the limiting factor the tractive effort or ability to operate the vac-brakes/provide adequate brake force(for unfitted)?

 

Many thanks,

 

Jack

[The Stationmaster]

The only loads I have for 204hp shunters are from the passenger/parcels trains load tables and are 350 tons trailing on the Abingdon branch (as near level as makes no difference) and 220 tons trailing Tiverton Jcn - Hemyock and 230 tons trailing Hemyock - Tiverton Jcn. By way of contrast a 14XX was allowed 260 tons on the Abingdon branch and 170 tons (in both directions) on the Hemyock branch whiie a 16XX was allowed 220 tons on that branch. A 16XX was rated as 2F by BR so that should give you a reasonable area of comparison for the 204 hp (Class 03 & 04 diesels) but the 16XX was 11 tons heavier than a D2XXX loco so would probably have been allowed heavier unfitted freight train loads than the diesel.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

Thank you, that's helpful!

 

Kindest Regards,

 

Jack

[AMJ]

Looking briefly on the net

maximum tractive effort of 15,650lb in first gear.

 

See Ribble Steam Railway 03 info page

 

 

[Tradair]

In addition to what the Stationmaster has posted, BR 31452 1963 BR(WR) gives 145 tons Bere Alston to Callington and 150 tons Axminster to Lyme Regis. (Both ways)

No other route has a defined weight for the D2XXX classes.

[brushman47544]

Theoretically or actually? For the latter, the words "skin" and "rice pudding" spring to mind.

 

Some years ago I was at Minehead on a charter of some 12 or 13 Mk1s. The Class 47 stopped the train in the platform then drew forward. A small shunter (03/04 or similar) then coupled up to shunt release. Nothing happened. Eventually a 6400PT was coupled up and did the job with ease.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Theoretically or actually? For the latter, the words "skin" and "rice pudding" spring to mind.

 

Some years ago I was at Minehead on a charter of some 12 or 13 Mk1s. The Class 47 stopped the train in the platform then drew forward. A small shunter (03/04 or similar) then coupled up to shunt release. Nothing happened. Eventually a 6400PT was coupled up and did the job with ease.

 

I'm not surprised. 12 Mk 1 's at around 20tons each would far exceed the figures quoted above and these small diesel shunters were designed mainly to shift and shunt pick up freights a few wagons at a time.

 

They are also a bit overgeared for this sort of heavy shunt and the transmission would probably protest at getting all that weight to move. It is also fair to say that the 03 at Minehead is quite old and, unlike the steamer, is not really capable of giving the same performance as it did when new.

 

Remember also that the 08 shunter which took over many of the station pilot duties at various termini was more than capable of shifting this sort of load but was at least twice the horsepower and had a facility to series the motors which gave twice the pull for half the speed.

 

This lack of oomph and the loss of traffic was the principal reason that these little shunters were sold off long before they were worn out

[The Stationmaster]

I would go for an average of around 32-33 tons for a Mk1, possibly more with some in modern conditions on private hire fleets where they are carrying extra bits plus tools and spares. 12 at 32 tons is 384 tons, 13 at 32 tons is 416 tons. Even if we go on the low side and say 30 tons per vehicle we are still talking about 360 tons trailing = overload!!

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I would go for an average of around 32-33 tons for a Mk1, possibly more with some in modern conditions on private hire fleets where they are carrying extra bits plus tools and spares. 12 at 32 tons is 384 tons, 13 at 32 tons is 416 tons. Even if we go on the low side and say 30 tons per vehicle we are still talking about 360 tons trailing = overload!!

 

I must admit to estimating the load based on my knowledge that the 4Cor power car weighs in at 38tons and the motors are 2 tons each and that gangway and driving control gear and even coachwork construction might be on the heavy side. Plus wanting to err on the safe side but recognising the overload.

 

Did the Mk1's ever have a design weight either Tare or loaded?

[The Stationmaster]

I must admit to estimating the load based on my knowledge that the 4Cor power car weighs in at 38tons and the motors are 2 tons each and that gangway and driving control gear and even coachwork construction might be on the heavy side. Plus wanting to err on the safe side but recognising the overload.

 

Did the Mk1's ever have a design weight either Tare or loaded?

 

There was certainly a target design weight (Parkin's book might have it?) and obviously dimension (loading gauge) constraints which would have helped to set what the weight would be likely to come out at but I would think loading gauge would have been more important than overall weight as long as the latter was within reason.

[keefer]

the parkin mk1 book has weights on the diagram drawings, which presumably would be the designed tare weight for each type

open saloons seem to be lightest(eg dia. 56 RSO 31ton), kitchen cars heaviest (eg dia.700 RK 48ton)

i'm not sure if the weights are empty or 'in service condition' i.e. water tanks full etc. (actually, there's 5ton difference in the dia.701/702 RK, presumably due to the anthracite/propane weight difference!)

 

bogie type also makes a difference, istr platform 5 books stating +/- figures for B1/B2/B4/B5/CW bogies depending on what was originally specified/fitted later (CW bogies always were a weight penalty despite their improved performance against B1/B2, which led to the development of the B4/B5. all tied up with the max.speed/increased comfort available for the premier trains, where any excess weight was an enemy of the timetable!)

[multiprinter]

The weight of each Mk1 vehicle type also depended on which bogies were fitted and the various options of brakes and heating. Thus the weight could range from 32 tons up to 38 tons with some catering vehicles heavier than that. BR worked on an average of 35 tons for timing purposes which has always struck me as a bit low when passengers and their luggage are taken into account.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

Thanks for all the input guys, I have a pretty decent idea of how much I can haul behind an 04.

 

Kindest Regards,

 

Jack

[Pennine MC]

I'm not surprised. 12 Mk 1 's at around 20tons each would far exceed the figures quoted above and these small diesel shunters were designed mainly to shift and shunt pick up freights a few wagons at a time.

 

They are also a bit overgeared for this sort of heavy shunt and the transmission would probably protest at getting all that weight to move.

 

...

 

Remember also that the 08 shunter which took over many of the station pilot duties at various termini was more than capable of shifting this sort of load but was at least twice the horsepower and had a facility to series the motors which gave twice the pull for half the speed.

 

 

 

I would go for an average of around 32-33 tons for a Mk1, possibly more with some in modern conditions on private hire fleets where they are carrying extra bits plus tools and spares. 12 at 32 tons is 384 tons, 13 at 32 tons is 416 tons. Even if we go on the low side and say 30 tons per vehicle we are still talking about 360 tons trailing = overload!!

 

According to Steve Allsop, writing in one of the prototype mags a few years ago, all the 08s were actually 400hp (not the usually quoted 350), which pedantically speaking is slightly less than twice the rating of a 204hp 03 or 04.

 

But overloaded or not, the 03s used as pilots at Hull Paragon for many years regularly shifted the stock of trains from KX and took it (admittedly a short distance of half a mile or so) through the washing plant - OTTOMH, the heaviest regular formation would probably have been the 'Hull Pullman' c1970, formed of maybe 10 coaches, MetCam Pullmans and late build Mk1s including (I think) two catering cars. Most if not all would be on heavy Commonwealth bogies and the RCTS coaching stock books gave the weight of such Mk1s as around 35/36T IIRC, with the Pullmans probably a bit more

 

The ER/NER was of course very much the principal user of 03s for station pilot work, but not always at terminii - I would think that the Norwich and Scarborough jobs would have involved similar usage though

[The Stationmaster]

According to Steve Allsop, writing in one of the prototype mags a few years ago, all the 08s were actually 400hp (not the usually quoted 350), which pedantically speaking is slightly less than twice the rating of a 204hp 03 or 04.

 

But overloaded or not, the 03s used as pilots at Hull Paragon for many years regularly shifted the stock of trains from KX and took it (admittedly a short distance of half a mile or so) through the washing plant - OTTOMH, the heaviest regular formation would probably have been the 'Hull Pullman' c1970, formed of maybe 10 coaches, MetCam Pullmans and late build Mk1s including (I think) two catering cars. Most if not all would be on heavy Commonwealth bogies and the RCTS coaching stock books gave the weight of such Mk1s as around 35/36T IIRC, with the Pullmans probably a bit more

 

The ER/NER was of course very much the principal user of 03s for station pilot work, but not always at terminii - I would think that the Norwich and Scarborough jobs would have involved similar usage though

 

As far as the 08s are concerned the difference was more than one just of horsepower because there is also the matter of type of drive and gearing - they are more than capable of shifting 1,000 tons of trailing load with little or no problem on level track.

With the 03s the loads I gave were trailing loads for trains but even so that should give a pretty good guide to their capabilities as I indicated. The trick with any trailing load is getting it started (and stopping it - but that's a very different matter) and therefore driving ability/skill, especially with a diesel mechanical loco, undoubtedly plays a big part. Which indicates they were good Drivers up in the North East, and elsewhere on the dry side when it came to handling a diesel mechanical shunter.

[Pennine MC]

Which indicates they were good Drivers up in the North East, and elsewhere on the dry side when it came to handling a diesel mechanical shunter .

My late uncle would have been pleased you said that

[Etched Pixels]

If you want to see what an 08 can do take a look at the Cardiff steel hire movements. Admittedly they broke several 08's in the process 8)

 

Another example of what shunters can do is of course the BP&GV which used to run triple headed class 03s and later a single 08 on long (20+ hopper) coal trains from Cwm Mawr to the washery at Coedbach. The empties used to take two 03s plus another banking and then three locos on the front back down with the coal in part to get enough brakeforce.

 

Alan