RMweb Gold 46444 Posted August 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 19, 2011 Recently I was given three Ian Kirk 4mm Scale GWR wagon kits by Wiggoforgold (Thankyou). The kits are well moulded but are very basic and come with no information or instructions. Looking at Russell's Great Western Wagon Plan Book it would appear I have the following. Hopefully, someone will be able to confirm this? 4M4 GWR 5 Plank Goods Wagon. (? Diagram 018) 4M3 GWR 4 Plank Goods Wagon. (? Diagram 021) ??? GWR 7 Plank Goods Wagon. (? Diagram 010) In Russell's book the ? Diagram 010 7 Plank wagon has a sheet rail fitted, though the kit doesn't have this. Were some of these wagons either built without them or did they have them removed? It also has top opening doors as well as the normal drop down if that helps to identify what diagram it is. Finally, does anyone have the wagon numbers for the 018/021/010 diagrams? Thanks, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Mark, These would seem to have passed into the Coopercraft range:- http://www.cooper-craft.co.uk/00wagons.html#cooperc The details and illustrations would seem to confirm your description. Be careful about cutting the pieces from the sprue, if the models haven't been assembled yet- I bought some 24½t BR minerals by Kirk, dating from the late 1970s, during the 1990s, and some of the plastic was prone to crumbling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Concerning dia. O10 : these were effectively the same as the dia. O2, the principal difference was that the O10 was vac fitted (DC II) whereas the O2 was equipped with DC I brakes. Tourret notes in the last edition of GW Goods Wagons that 410 seven plank wagons were modified in WWI to remove the sheet rail supporter and these were fitted with an extension rail (for the transport of military horses and mules). There is a photo of an O10 (29617) taken in 1920 which has the sheet rail supporter and another O10 (29999) taken in 1949 which does not have the sheet supporter. In the meantime the GW had progressively abandoned the use of the sheet rail (IIRC one of the reasons was that the other companies did not use this feature and it was increasingly burdensome for the GWR to maintain these)... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 there's a photo of an O10 W29636 in pre-nationalisation freight wagons on BR Larkin bradford barton, taken in 1959 still fitted with a sheet rail, I thought these were DC III off set vacuum brake Dilbert? DC II being the vacuum clasp brake? Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted August 19, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 19, 2011 Thanks for the replies everyone. Brian, think there may well be some similarity with these wagons and the Coopercraft ones especially the 010/02. Thanks Dilbert/Nigel. Looks as if I can model a 010 without sheet rail as long as it's fitted then. Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Mark, the O10 was a development of the O2, but with the exception of planks, corner plates & hockey stick angle brackets, the O10 has completely different side vertical stanchions & top flap & drop door details Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted August 19, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 19, 2011 Mark, the O10 was a development of the O2, but with the exception of planks, corner plates & hockey stick angle brackets, the O10 has completely different side vertical stanchions & top flap & drop door details Nigel Hi Nigel, Thanks for your reply once again. It's interesting comparing these these two diagrams. Looking at Russell's book again it would appear that the Kirk kit matches the 010 diagram more clearly than the 02 diagram. The top doors on the moulding have long hinges which the O10 appears to have compared to the 02. Obviously, there may well have been variations and ideally I think it would be a good idea to put this kit together so people can see the what I'm working with. I'll try to put it together this afternoon and take a few photographs as well. Thanks once again. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Hi Mark I know the coopercraft 7mm offering represents O2, which I,ve almost completed converting to O10, I'll see if I can get some pics up loaded Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 there's a photo of an O10 W29636 in pre-nationalisation freight wagons on BR Larkin bradford barton, taken in 1959 still fitted with a sheet rail, I thought these were DC III off set vacuum brake Dilbert? DC II being the vacuum clasp brake? O.10 as originally built with DC II brakes. As to whether conversions to DC III were made, I don't know the answer to that... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 done a little digging Mark! Open Secrets, two articles by Brian Huxley in Railway Modeler June, & August '79 covers the building of & all the variants of the 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 plank & open C's using the Kirk, ABS, coopercraft & Ratio kits in 4mm, apparently the 7 plank represents an O2 having 2 plank top flap doors,(the O10 has 3) but doesn't have the correct hockey stick diagonals Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 To add to the construction information already supplied: I had a lot of Kirk kits in the early seventies for the all important opens and vans that just were not available RTR, and for which the Kirk range was the cheapest kit source by far. The underframes were not the best feature, many embrittled or slowly bent out of shape over two or three years running. These were replaced at the time with the excellent (from the point of view of reliable running performance and yet more economy) 3H LNER 9' wooden framed wagon chassis produced as an underframe only kit. Sold most of these wagons, only keeping the LNE system types which are running today as well as ever. Quite possibly there is someone out there with GW and other wagon models much improved with LNER underframes, hem, hem... ...the GW had progressively abandoned the use of the sheet rail (IIRC one of the reasons was that the other companies did not use this feature and it was increasingly burdensome for the GWR to maintain these)... Many of the pre-group railway companies provided sheet rails on their opens, but others did not. The uneven provision (placing a disproportionate first cost and maintenance burden on the companies that did provide them) led to an RCH ruling that sheet rail fitted wagons were non-common user, so had to be worked back to parent system as expeditiously as possible once off-loaded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 little more from the article, the 4 plank best represents O5 or O21 with the use of ABS brake & buffing gear to suit, & the 5 plank O18, O22, or O23 Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted August 19, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 19, 2011 Thanks for all your replies, especially Nigel and Industrial. Here's the photographs of the three assembled kits-bodies only as I'm going to try and source replacement underframes from either Coopercraft or Parkside. First up the 02 or 010 without sheet rail: Then the 5 Plank 018: Finally the 4 Plank 021: Hope this clarifies things a bit more? Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 glad to of been of assistance Mark, as it stands the 7 planks definately an O2! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted August 19, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 19, 2011 Thanks Nigel. Unfitted 02 it is then with brake lever on both sides. Cheers. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted August 20, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 20, 2011 When is your layout based as this will depend on the brake gear for the O2. The O18 will be DC3 brakes and the O21 with the normal (Common) brake leaver. Hi Industrial, My layout will be based in the postwar GWR period on the Teign Valley Line if that helps. Can you clarify the differences in the DC brakes as well for me please. I look forward to seeing your photographs. Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I built quite a few of these back in the seventies when they first appeared (they were cheap (about 30p IIRC), which always appeals to Grifone finances!). The Coopercraft versions are much better detailed however. The Kirk underframe is rather crude and the resulting wagon rides low (this can represent a fully loaded wagon of course). New buffers are a must (I favour MJT - usual disclaimer) and a Coopercraft underframe improves the whole wagon. Cut the thick strip along the top of the solebar off and it just drops in place. The sides are rather thick - I chamfered the top edge of some of mine and others I chickened out and fitted sheets (saves on lettering as well). The MINK kit lacks curb rails (which I didn't notice until after I'd completed several ) The four plank wagons were built with lever brakes on one side only*. IIRC the diagram O21 only refers to these fitted with DC brakes at a later date. * They were fitted with a brake on the other side during the twenties and thirties, often only acting on one wheel (like the W1 cattle wagons). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted August 21, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2011 Thanks Industrial/David, I'm shortly going to place an order with Coopercraft along with some ventilated scoop ends for their Mink kits too. Thought with a bit of butchery the Coopercraft chassis would fit. Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 have fun Mark!! I think the best advice is to get as many pics of prototypes as possible, as there are so many variations & alterations, one book I would recommend for any vans your building is Cheona profile no. 17 GWR wagons before 1948 pub. 2009 loads of excellent photos of various minks both in service & preserved, Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted August 21, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2011 Hi Nigel, Thankfully I've already got this book so as you say it's got some excellent photographs to work with. As the builds progress I'll post some photos on my Blog. I'm sure I'll make at least one mistake with the DC brake set up however-watch this space! Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Mark There are some collections of opens and vans in http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwr Although most are from the late 1960s onwards, a few are from the earlier BR period. May be of use Regards Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Checking with my copy of 'A history of GWR goods wagons' ( which I should have done first! ), O21 were 4 plank wagons when fitted with a second lever brake and O5 refers to DC I fitted wagons (a fraction of the total). O18 has self contained buffers and DC III brake. O22 is the same, but usually with Morton brake (some of O22 had vacuum brake). Both O18 and O22 usually had sheet rails.there is a photo of 102297 (O22 OPEN A) with GWR Not common user plate on the bottom of the RH side next to the corner plate. O23 was a version without sheet rail (OPEN) and O25 a convertible grain wagon. The O2 is a bit of a hybrid. It has O2 flat side stanchions (these are L section on O10) but O10 long strap hinges on the top doors*. Both had sheet rails O2 being unfitted OPEN A (DC I) and O10 vacuum fitted OPEN B (DC II). They should have 'hockey stick' diagonal strapping. * These could possibly have been fitted during later repairs? or/ maybe during construction since they came from the same lots O2 28008/16/29004/6/8/12/21874726-825 78431-880 O22 108501-9436 OPEN A 102626-3000 108001-500 OPEN B O23 110601-750/1001-112000 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 T section on O10 rather than L Il grifone? Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 gentleman, can somebody tell me about the DC11 versus DC111 differences, is it down to vac fitting, or whether the V hangers are central or off-set? photos in Cheona vol 17 show several Minks with offset hangers & vac cylinders & state these as DC111? I'm getting terribly confused!! Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 T section on O10 rather than L Il grifone? Nigel Quite right, but my eyesight isnt what it was and the photo is rather dark. DC III is the vacuum brake version of DC II. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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