GW Fruit Van (SWB) - Correct Colour?

[M.I.B]

A short wheelbase GWR FRUIT van (8/10t? - Iron MINK size) usually grey, but in the stock box, I have found one (Dapol or Mainline I think) there lies one in brown with yellow lettering ( factory finish)

 

Surely that's incorrect? Or is it?

 

Thanks

[richbrummitt]

Fruit vans (diagrams Y) were classified as passenger stock and painted in the same way as other similar vehicles.

[Fat Controller]

This type's not the Passenger Rated Stock type, but rather, like a Mink A with louvres on the upper parts of the sides; in BR days, they received Bauxite, in GWR days, they would have had the same finish as Minks (dark grey, IIRC).

[M.I.B]

Thanks.

[Gingerbread]

The answer is somewhat complicated, particularly as the prototype hasn't been clearly identified.

 

So far as I can tell, based on the "size similar to Iron Mink" the most likely prototype would be Y2 or Y1. There is a photo of Y2 at http://www.didcotrai...7886/47886.html - these were 16 feet long (over headstocks), with 10 foot wheelbase and ran on passenger wheels. They were only 6 tons, rather than the 8/10 tons suggested. I believe colour scheme would have been as follows (approximately, depending on dates of repaints):

as built (1892) to about 1900 - GWR red

about 1900 to about 1915 - GWR dark grey

about 1915 to about 1925 - Crimson Lake (or possibly Brown - opinions vary)

about 1925 onwards - Brown

Lettering would be white, except for the last (brown) livery.

There is also a suggestion that they might have been downgraded from Passenger Fruit Vans to Goods Fruit Vans in later years, probably accompanied by a switch back to Grey livery/white writing.

 

Alternatively, based on the description of "like a Mink A with louvres on the upper parts of the sides" by Fat Controller (Brian W), it would appear to be either a 12 ton Y8 built 1937-8 for Guernsey tomato traffic or a 8 ton Y10, converted from W10 cattle wagon in 1938-9. Both of these would probably have been in GWR dark grey initially, subsequently BR bauxite, as he says.

 

The other possibilities which appear plausible are:

Y4 banana vans, initially built as V16 vans, then converted into X6 insulated (meat) vans in 1918, then converted again to banana vans in 1922.

Y12 of similar design built new in 1925, but with Morton brakes instead of DC. Initially numbered in diagram Y4.

Y7 similar but slightly longer, built new 1929-30 (17 ft 6 in rather than 16 ft).

Livery probably Grey followed by Bauxite.

 

The remainder of the GWR fruit vans appear to have been too long to match the one described above, e.g. Y3 22 ft long.

 

David

[buffalo]

...So far as I can tell, based on the "size similar to Iron Mink" the most likely prototype would be Y2 or Y1. There is a photo of Y2 at http://www.didcotrai...7886/47886.html ...

 

A similar size to an Iron Mink (V6) would suggest Y2 rather than Y1. Y1 was about a foot higher than Y2 which in turn was about 8" taller than V6. The Didcot example is a bit of a hybrid, it is a Y2 and the livery is intended to represent its early appearance as built in 1890. There is a photo of a similar van as built, No 47950, in Atkins et al. However, it originally had a central oil lamp and an Armstrong lever operated handbrake, not DCIII which was not invented until much later. It also should have Mansell type wooden centred coach wheels rather than the discs it currently sits on. Incidentally, Y1 is much later, being built in 1904-5.

 

I believe colour scheme would have been as follows (approximately, depending on dates of repaints):

as built (1892) to about 1900 - GWR red

about 1900 to about 1915 - GWR dark grey

about 1915 to about 1925 - Crimson Lake (or possibly Brown - opinions vary)

about 1925 onwards - Brown

Some cans of worms here! Irrespective of ones views on GWR freight red, a vacuum fitted van intended for use in passenger trains would, almost certainly, never have been painted this way. The red was a freight livery. The V2 would have been grey from the outset. Crimson lake is certainly a possibility, but I don't know of any direct evidence for this on fruit vans.

 

Nick

[Gingerbread]

A similar size to an Iron Mink (V6) would suggest Y2 rather than Y1. Y1 was about a foot higher than Y2 which in turn was about 8" taller than V6. The Didcot example is a bit of a hybrid, it is a Y2 and the livery is intended to represent its early appearance as built in 1890. There is a photo of a similar van as built, No 47950, in Atkins et al. However, it originally had a central oil lamp and an Armstrong lever operated handbrake, not DCIII which was not invented until much later. It also should have Mansell type wooden centred coach wheels rather than the discs it currently sits on. Incidentally, Y1 is much later, being built in 1904-5.

Agreed - I was trying not to add too many additional complications to an already-complicated attempt to reply.

 

Some cans of worms here! Irrespective of ones views on GWR freight red, a vacuum fitted van intended for use in passenger trains would, almost certainly, never have been painted this way. The red was a freight livery. The V2 would have been grey from the outset. Crimson lake is certainly a possibility, but I don't know of any direct evidence for this on fruit vans.

Agreed that it's a "can of worms" - hence the vagueness of my reply.

 

I'm interested to see that you strongly believe that red was used only for freight, and grey would have been used for Y2 from the beginning (I agree that Y1 would probably have been grey from the beginning in 1904 or thereabouts), as I am still hoping to find some evidence for Y2 one way or the other.

 

The quotes that I have seen for the "red" period are fairly contradictory, but I don't recall anything suggesting that fruit vans were grey during this period. I've seen conflicting views that brake vans (or should it be break?) were either grey or brown during the red period.

 

I'm aware the Atkins photograph is accompanied by a description "as built 1890 in grey livery", but am unsure whether this is a fact or just an assumption from the monochrome photograph (taking us back to "how do you distinguish grey and red in those pictures?"). I also have my reservations about the accuracy of Atkins on this particular diagram in respect of the louvres between the side planks - the description, drawing, and photographs in Atkins and Russell's Wagons Appendix appear inconsistent. As you have already mentioned, the Didcot example appears to be a hybrid, so probably doesn't do much to help sort out the problems.

 

On "crimson lake" I know that Richard Brumitt was recently investigating a similar question for siphons ca 1922, and decided to paint his in crimson - I don't think he received any definitive replies either way between crimson and brown.

 

An additional problem is that the vans appear to have generally run overnight, so pictures in service are understandably rare.

 

David

[buffalo]

...I'm interested to see that you strongly believe that red was used only for freight, and grey would have been used for Y2 from the beginning (I agree that Y1 would probably have been grey from the beginning in 1904 or thereabouts), as I am still hoping to find some evidence for Y2 one way or the other.

 

Given the lack of evidence and the problems of interpreting photos, not to mention the few questionable documentary references, it is a very diificult problem. Although not a cast iron argument, I would expect red to fade more than dark grey so photos of wagons in service or, for example, on the broad gauge dump sidings should be paler if red than if grey. On this basis there are photos that suggest many opens might have been red, whilst vans were often darker. That may be simply because the opens were subject to more wear and tear. However, in the case of the Y2 vans, I think I would base my analogy on the passenger rated fish wagons where I have yet to see any convincing evidence that they were anything other than a darkish colour, presumably grey. All very tenuous and mention of the broad gauge dump may just be introducing another variable. After all, most of those that were converted were presumably also repainted, not necessarily in the same colour.

 

...I also have my reservations about the accuracy of Atkins on this particular diagram in respect of the louvres between the side planks - the description, drawing, and photographs in Atkins and Russell's Wagons Appendix appear inconsistent.

 

Yes, I agree, though I'm inclined to trust the basic dimensions in Atkins.

 

On "crimson lake" I know that Richard Brumitt was recently investigating a similar question for siphons ca 1922, and decided to paint his in crimson - I don't think he received any definitive replies either way between crimson and brown.

 

I certainly have seen references to crimson siphons, though don't recall offhand where (Jack Slinn's GWW or the Siphons book, maybe). How widespread this was amongst other passenger rated stock is unclear to me, especially given the reorganisation of the passenger and freight lists in 1922 (I think). IIRC, Y2 stayed as passenger rated and Y1 became express freight stock.

 

An additional problem is that the vans appear to have generally run overnight, so pictures in service are understandably rare.

Yes, add to that amateur photographers working only at weekends...

 

Nick

[Fat Controller]

Does the wagon in this link look like the model you have, M.I.B?

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brfruitvan/h261ab53d#h261ab53d

If it does, then it is the Goods Fruit Van, introduced just prior to WW2, and would have been grey in GWR days- the example shown is one built after Nationalisation to the same design, hence the 'B' prefix. It's also got ply doors- the original ones would have been planked. Mainline did the original model, but it's now in the Bachmann range.

[M.I.B]

Brian,

 

It's not that verson. It doesn't have the louvre/vent sections on the top half of the sides.

 

 

Similar size though. When I earlier said MINK size, I ws attempting to say that it was not one of the Y3 22 foot ones. Sorry All if that confused things a little.

 

It's definitly a Mainline model - I rechecked on day of the first posting.

[Fat Controller]

Brian,

 

It's not that verson. It doesn't have the louvre/vent sections on the top half of the sides.

 

 

Similar size though. When I earlier said MINK size, I ws attempting to say that it was not one of the Y3 22 foot ones. Sorry All if that confused things a little.

 

It's definitly a Mainline model - I rechecked on day of the first posting.

A mystery Mainline model...I can't say that I remember them doing anything as small as an Iron Mink, as I'd believed they only did the one wagon underframe (17'6" over headstocks). I did have a look for an old catalogue, and found this site:-

http://www.mainlinerailways.org.uk/Wagons.htm I don't know if you can see it there. Of course, it could be that someones's used a Mainline chassis for a scratch-build.

[richbrummitt]

On "crimson lake" I know that Richard Brumitt was recently investigating a similar question for siphons ca 1922, and decided to paint his in crimson - I don't think he received any definitive replies either way between crimson and brown.

 

I looked at the colour plaques in the back of GWW (I don't think they are in some later editions?) and brown is really dark, and the red isn't much lighter but is different as if it has had a little red-ish tint added. It still looks quite brown. I painted them Tamiya X-9, which is actually 'brown' if anyone wants to contradict my decision. It is lighter than the plaques but I've still no clear idea how the actual colour aged! I painted the destination board brackets, which as far as I can tell were the same colour as the roof in all other liveries.

 

I certainly have seen references to crimson siphons, though don't recall offhand where (Jack Slinn's GWW or the Siphons book, maybe). How widespread this was amongst other passenger rated stock is unclear to me, especially given the reorganisation of the passenger and freight lists in 1922 (I think). IIRC, Y2 stayed as passenger rated and Y1 became express freight stock.

 

The recently updated edition of GWW asserts that they would have been painted in line with passenger carrying coaching stock. i.e. lake. It deals with the various types of vehicles separately and admits that it is difficult to make more than an educated guess in some circumstances. During 1922 the livery changed. This is at the end of the period that contains most of my modelling activity.

[richbrummitt]

A mystery Mainline model...I can't say that I remember them doing anything as small as an Iron Mink, as I'd believed they only did the one wagon underframe (17'6" over headstocks). I did have a look for an old catalogue, and found this site:-

http://www.mainliner...g.uk/Wagons.htm I don't know if you can see it there. Of course, it could be that someones's used a Mainline chassis for a scratch-build.

 

37173 and 37174 (differnt numbers different years?) are GW fruit vans, but are like the picture linked in a previous post. Maybe the OP could post a picture?

[M.I.B]

 

37173 and 37174 (differnt numbers different years?) are GW fruit vans, but are like the picture linked in a previous post. Maybe the OP could post a picture?

 

Will try but I don't have a good record on posting photos to websites.

 

 

[/quo

A mystery Mainline model...I can't say that I remember them doing anything as small as an Iron Mink, as I'd believed they only did the one wagon underframe (17'6" over headstocks). I did have a look for an old catalogue, and found this site:-

http://www.mainliner...g.uk/Wagons.htm I don't know if you can see it there. Of course, it could be that someones's used a Mainline chassis for a scratch-build.

 

It is the size of those vans in the catalogues. The lettering is to the same standard/type as my other Mainline vans of the same age, and the colouring is the same standard. There is no way that this is a repaint or a scratch build.

[Pennine MC]

It is the size of those vans in the catalogues. The lettering is to the same standard/type as my other Mainline vans of the same age, and the colouring is the same standard. There is no way that this is a repaint or a scratch build.

 

Then it surely has to be either a Mogo (car carrying van), or a standard goods van?

[Guest dilbert]

 

Then it surely has to be either a Mogo (car carrying van), or a standard goods van?

 

Not all of the Mainline tooling went to Dapol - Replica also produced Mogos and Vent Vans from some of the Palitoy tooling - these were in grey and have Bachmann stamped on the back of the floor.

 

Bachmann did produce a couple of fruit vans in BR 'brown' livery - could it be that one of these has been modified ?

 

A good indicator to the origin of the vehicle will come from the brand name stamped under the floor for the vehicle... dilbert

[m90g]

The answer is somewhat complicated, particularly as the prototype hasn't been clearly identified.

 

So far as I can tell, based on the "size similar to Iron Mink" the most likely prototype would be Y2 or Y1. There is a photo of Y2 at http://www.didcotrai...7886/47886.html - these were 16 feet long (over headstocks), with 10 foot wheelbase and ran on passenger wheels. They were only 6 tons, rather than the 8/10 tons suggested. I believe colour scheme would have been as follows (approximately, depending on dates of repaints):

as built (1892) to about 1900 - GWR red

about 1900 to about 1915 - GWR dark grey

about 1915 to about 1925 - Crimson Lake (or possibly Brown - opinions vary)

about 1925 onwards - Brown

Lettering would be white, except for the last (brown) livery.

There is also a suggestion that they might have been downgraded from Passenger Fruit Vans to Goods Fruit Vans in later years, probably accompanied by a switch back to Grey livery/white writing.

 

Alternatively, based on the description of "like a Mink A with louvres on the upper parts of the sides" by Fat Controller (Brian W), it would appear to be either a 12 ton Y8 built 1937-8 for Guernsey tomato traffic or a 8 ton Y10, converted from W10 cattle wagon in 1938-9. Both of these would probably have been in GWR dark grey initially, subsequently BR bauxite, as he says.

 

The other possibilities which appear plausible are:

Y4 banana vans, initially built as V16 vans, then converted into X6 insulated (meat) vans in 1918, then converted again to banana vans in 1922.

Y12 of similar design built new in 1925, but with Morton brakes instead of DC. Initially numbered in diagram Y4.

Y7 similar but slightly longer, built new 1929-30 (17 ft 6 in rather than 16 ft).

Livery probably Grey followed by Bauxite.

 

The remainder of the GWR fruit vans appear to have been too long to match the one described above, e.g. Y3 22 ft long.

 

David

 

 

David,

Well done, your answer rocks.

 

Its deja-vu all over again (West London 2mm)

 

Myles

[buffalo]

...The recently updated edition of GWW asserts that they would have been painted in line with passenger carrying coaching stock. i.e. lake. It deals with the various types of vehicles separately and admits that it is difficult to make more than an educated guess in some circumstances. During 1922 the livery changed. This is at the end of the period that contains most of my modelling activity.

My only doubts about this come from how short-lived the lake livery actually was, bearing in mind there was a war in the middle of it. So I do wonder just how many vehicles actually received the livery. It's quite possible that many vehicles retained their earlier livery, only to be repainted during wartime in anything but lake and this might then have lasted unitl 1922 or beyond. The best candidates would have been those built new, or due for repainting during the short periods either side of the war.

 

Nick

[richbrummitt]

There is strong evidence to suggest that repainting was at least every four years for coaching stock so it is quite likely that more than half were repainted before the war?

[buffalo]

That's interesting, Rich. Can you elaborate on the "strong evidence"? I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I do find this hard to believe in the case of NPCS and passenger-rated goods stock.

 

Nick

[Il Grifone]

From somewhere, I have the idea that GWR carriage paint was supposed to last ten years. This would of course depend on usage and presumably front line express stock would be given priority over secondary stock and this over 'brown' vehicles. Many of these vehicles were originally 'goods' stock and would have been red in the late 19th century and then grey*. Many were then moved to the carriage index and repainted (not necessarily at once) in passenger livery. I can see no reason why passenger!) vehicles should be lake and non passenger brown (Apart from wartime constraints of course). I would thus suggest that from 1912 - 1922 new and repainted 'brown' vehicles would be 'crimson' vehicles. This would include these fruit vans. in the mid twenties further transfers took place (mainly fish vans S2/6/8 IIRC). These would have gone straight from grey to brown (I have an S6 fish van which I have painted crimson in error. I might repaint it grey.) I think some/many vehicles would have missed the crimson either being late painted in brown (1911/12) or receiving brown during WW I. As many of these would have been SIPHONS, this could be the origin of the theory that these were painted brown in the crimson period. Not in fact the case, they were merely not repainted. It is of course difficult to be certain of the colour from monochrome photographs, especially under a layer of grime. The only certain guide is red oxide wheels rather than black and this is only clear in photos of newly painted vehicles.

 

I stress this is my opinion based on published information and reading between the lines. There are published photos circa 1920 of a Fish van (BLOATER) and a horse box in what is almost certainly crimson. The 'G W' lettering presumably would have been reduced in size in line with the goods vehicles in 1920.

 

*The actual date is open to argument, but I an inclined to the opinion that it coincided with the introduction of the cast iron plates, not that this date is certain either. I think I detect the hand of George Jackson Churchward? (Grey paint was cheaper than red, I gather, and less prone to fade!)

[M.I.B]

 

Not all of the Mainline tooling went to Dapol - Replica also produced Mogos and Vent Vans from some of the Palitoy tooling - these were in grey and have Bachmann stamped on the back of the floor.

 

Bachmann did produce a couple of fruit vans in BR 'brown' livery - could it be that one of these has been modified ?

 

A good indicator to the origin of the vehicle will come from the brand name stamped under the floor for the vehicle... dilbert

 

 

Thanks to everyone who has answered the original question regarding prototype colours.

 

Now as for the model:

 

This van is un modified, and clearly has "Mainline" under the floor.

 

It has no end doors (MOGO).

It clearley says "FRUIT" and "GW" in yellow factory stencilled letters on the brown factory finished paint.

[Gingerbread]

Based on the dimensions indicated by Brian above, namely 10 ft wheelbase and 17 ft 6 in over headstocks, I can't seen any GWR fruit van that actually matched, so perhaps it has been stretched/shrunk to fit a standard Mainline chassis.

 

A few questions that might help to narrow down the choice a bit (though perhaps it's just a "generic GWR-like design")

1) What is the number on the side of the van? (assuming it has one and is legible)?

2) Are the planks on the side doors vertical (later style) or horizontal (earlier style, usually with outside framing on the doors)?

3) What is the pattern of strapping on the ends - flat iron cross bracing (older style) or diagonal "T" or "L" strapping (later style)?

4) What ventilator (if any) on the end?

 

David

[Fat Controller]

Based on the dimensions indicated by Brian above, namely 10 ft wheelbase and 17 ft 6 in over headstocks, I can't seen any GWR fruit van that actually matched, so perhaps it has been stretched/shrunk to fit a standard Mainline chassis.

 

A few questions that might help to narrow down the choice a bit (though perhaps it's just a "generic GWR-like design")

1) What is the number on the side of the van? (assuming it has one and is legible)?

2) Are the planks on the side doors vertical (later style) or horizontal (earlier style, usually with outside framing on the doors)?

3) What is the pattern of strapping on the ends - flat iron cross bracing (older style) or diagonal "T" or "L" strapping (later style)?

4) What ventilator (if any) on the end?

 

David

Whilst none of the Passenger Fruit Vans match the dimensions (and besides, the Fruit D is the only one on the r-t-r market), the Goods Fruit Van does fit the dimensions, being essentially a Mink A with louvred upper sides.

[Pennine MC]

Now as for the model:

 

This van is un modified, and clearly has "Mainline" under the floor.

 

It has no end doors (MOGO).

It clearley says "FRUIT" and "GW" in yellow factory stencilled letters on the brown factory finished paint.

 

Personally, I'm now of the suspicion that whilst the chassis may be Mainline, the body isnt. Hornby and Dapol have both done some odd things with inherited tooling.