Rob F Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I just got an NCE Powercab for my birthday. My wife bought it from Bromsgrove Models and the service was excellent, as usual. I have had a Lenz compact for about 6 years and thought it was time for something a little more sophisticated. However, I have an issue that I hope somebody can help with. All my chipped locos run much slower on the Powercab than they did with the Compact and by varying amounts. My Heljan Falcon, with a Lenz Gold chip runs at about 70% speed, my Bachmann Voyager with an earlier Lenz chip (a 1024 I think) runs at about 40% speed and my sound equipped Bachmann class 66 runs at barely 30% of its maximum on the Compact. It doesn't make any difference if the Powercab is in 28 or 128 speed step mode. Is there anything I might be doing wrong or is it possible that the Powercab is faulty? All the functions work as they should, including on the sound loco. Whilst I am at it, the Powercab comes with a yellow registration card to be sent to NCE which also qualifies for a free software upgrade. Does the return paid card get to the USA or do I need to put a stamp on it? Thanks ROB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 It might be worth checking that you haven't got it in "shunt" mode. I did this by mistake once. I can't remember how you get it back to normal but it was very clear in the user manual. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Williams Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 It's just possible you were running the Lenz on 28 step and the NCE is set to 128 step (note the button on the bottom row, second from the right). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 It might be worth checking that you haven't got it in "shunt" mode. I did this by mistake once. I can't remember how you get it back to normal but it was very clear in the user manual. I haven't got the manual to hand at the moment. Would 'shunt mode' work globally across all locos (which is what I am seeing) or would it be selected on a per loco basis? ROB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 No it's a setting on the throttle so it affects every loco. My manual isn't handy at the moment either. Try this www.ncedcc.com/pdf/Power%20Cab%20Manual%201-25-06.pdfSimilar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 It could be related to a difference in the output voltage between the two systems. If the Compact has a higher voltage it automatically manifests itself with lower speeds on a system that have a lower voltage. If you alter the Vmax of the locomotives, do you get a more suitable speed? I got the same "problem" when I reduced the output voltage to the tracks on my Multimaus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 No it's a setting on the throttle so it affects every loco. My manual isn't handy at the moment either. Try this www.ncedcc.com/pdf/Power%20Cab%20Manual%201-25-06.pdfSimilar I have been right through the online manual and can find no reference to this at all. It is highly likely of course that it is there and I can't find it! ROB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 It could be related to a difference in the output voltage between the two systems. If the Compact has a higher voltage it automatically manifests itself with lower speeds on a system that have a lower voltage. If you alter the Vmax of the locomotives, do you get a more suitable speed? I got the same "problem" when I reduced the output voltage to the tracks on my Multimaus. But would the difference be so huge and also different for different locos? If I put an AC multimeter across the rails and a take a measurement from both systems would that be useful information? ROB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Williams Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I think the PowerCab can only be used in Yard (Shunt) Mode when it is either used as ProCab or is used with a booster (unless they have changed it). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I had a similar issue several years ago when I first bough a Powercab. Some loco's were definitely slower compared to my Lenz system. From memory and I may be way off target, it was either the output voltage or a current limit from the small power pack of the Powercab. I can't recall if you could change the output voltage in the Powercab, but upgrading to a Pro Cab opened up that option and increasing the voltage seemed to solve the problem. Hopefully John from Bromsgrove will be able to post some comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted February 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2012 I returned my yellow card to the States and have heard nothing since so I don't know if the card arrived. However, I was subsequently advised by the supplier of the unit when I queried a feature that the problem I was reporting would be covered in the upgrade but that hadn't been issued yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notanotherhobby Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I e-mailed NCE and asked them if they would accept my registration via e-mail rather than the hassle (and possible failure) of sending the yellow card through the postal system. NCE replied stating they were willing to accept the e-mail version, so thats how I registered my Power Cab. Hope that helps. Sorry can't help with your speed issues, but why not contact NCE and ask them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Let's try to clarify some of the issues here! Yard mode only works when the PowerCab is being used in ProCab mode, i.e. as a second (or greater) throttle on a PowerPro system. Sending the yellow card (and the registration card in the front of the manual) will enable you to get a free upgrade (if you qualify) when they become available, hopefully sooner rather than later, but you will have to pay postage - cheaper if you send them both together! You won't get any acknowledgement of receipt, though - it would just cost NCE too much in terms of time and money to do so, so you'll just have to be patient (like the rest of us) until either a card drops through the door offering you an upgrade to your system or you get the upgrade EPROM free and direct from NCE. The PowerCab is a starter system and has a lower power output than some other systems. Nevertheless it is a very sophisticated starter system! Remember if you have a number of locos on the layout they are all going to be drawing some power, albeit very low. I always find it useful to see what is going on by changing the time display on the PowerCab handset to show the amps being drawn. If you are reaching over 1.5 amps on the display then you are reaching the maximum output of the system. This facility isn't available if you upgrade to the 5 Amp Smartbooster as the Smartbooster then becomes the command station and the PowerCab is then just a throttle. Having said that, I've had 13 locos on our demo layout, most with sound and lights, with two running and the total current draw was 1.8 amps - I wouldn't have added any more to the load at that point though. Voltage will also be an issue. I use a variable output bench transformer in conjunction with the PowerPro systems I have and by just increasing the voltage output on the transformer increases speed and sound volume on locos already running without changing anything on the throttle! Voltage output on the PowerCab starter system should normally be between 11 and 13.5 volts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Track voltage is almost certainly the issue. My Atlas Commander (Lenz Compact) puts almost 17V to the track. One thing I have noticed is that different decoders use different schemes to determine voltage per step - some seem to treat each step as a fraction of the available voltage (and so will be slower over the entire speed range), while others appear to treat each speed step as a fixed voltage and so will have their speed capped before you reach the maximum speed step. A result of these varying implementations is that different locos (with different decoders) may display different performance when the voltage is reduced. I would suggest modifying each loco's VMax if possible (as suggested by M Graff above). Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 OK I have made some measurements and can present them here. I did tests with my Compact and Powercab with 3 different locos. They were: A Heljan Falcon fitted with a Lenz Gold chip A Bachmann class 66 with an ESU Loksound 3.5 A Bachmann Voyager with a Lenz LE1025c chip All the tests were carried out with the test loco being the only one present on the layout and all functions (lights, sound) turned off. I always use the speed table of chips to set the maximum speed of each loco to the prototypes scale maximum. With no locos on the track a multimeter in ac mode reads 19.8V with the Compact and 13.2V with the Powercab (33% lower). Heljan Falcon ============ Max speed in speed table =225 Scale speed with Compact= 100mph Scale speed with Powercab= 73mph (a fall of 27%) Current shown on display=0.2A but very 'jumpy'. If Vmax is increased to 255 scale speed is 76mph on Powercab. Bachmann Class 66 ================= Max speed in speed table=180 Scale speed with Compact=75mph Scale speed with PowerCab=44mph (a drop of 41%) Current shown on display =0.16A but very 'jumpy'. If Vmax is increased to 255 scale speed is 45mph on Powercab (virtually no change for a sizeable increase in Vmax) Bachmann Voyager ================= Max speed in speed table=220 Scale speed with Compact=124mph Scale speed with Powercab=72mph (a drop of 42%) Current shown on display=0.35A but very jumpy. If Vmax is increased to 255 scale speed is 75mph. My thoughts: I find it hard to believe this can be correct. Not only are the speeds on the Powercab very low but the motion of the locos also seems more hesitant, almost as if the track were dirty. The track is clean and there is no sign of any hesitancy when using the Compact. Is it possible I have a faulty unit? ROB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Williams Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I am far from an expert in these matters, but isn't nearly 20v for the Compact a bit on the high side? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I am far from an expert in these matters, but isn't nearly 20v for the Compact a bit on the high side? No. The Compact track voltage is based on the power supply, which can (per spec) be up to 18VDC. A multimeter will likely read high as it assumes a sinusoidal waveform not a square wave), so the actual peak voltage is probably a little less than that measured. Regardless, that voltage is still within the DCC maximum of 22V. Atlas actually published a circuit on their website for reducing the track voltage, presumably because they found that the stock track voltage on the Commander (Compact) was higher than they liked their products to run on. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Most sound decoders DO NOT like high voltages as they risk to run very hot! The Powercabs voltage is very nice on both sound decoders and N-scale decoders (wich also don't like high volts). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 ............... Whilst I am at it, the Powercab comes with a yellow registration card to be sent to NCE which also qualifies for a free software upgrade. Does the return paid card get to the USA or do I need to put a stamp on it? Thanks ROB Hello Rob, I was a bit concerned about the registration also - a quick eMail to the guys at NCE sorted it out and subsequently allowed me to 'register' ownership details by eMail. What I did find strange though is that there doesn't appear to be a serial number to identify the product ! Regards, Andy Apologies - seems this has already been answered, thread did not display in full when I added my post; only the first 2 entries ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 For me, the still unanswered question is whether I should expect a factory sound fitted Bachmann class 66 to be unable to reach a scale 50mph at maximum speed. What do people think? ROB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 For me, the still unanswered question is whether I should expect a factory sound fitted Bachmann class 66 to be unable to reach a scale 50mph at maximum speed. What do people think? ROB Will it manage it at running under DC at 12V? Based on the measured value above, I'd guess that something less than 12V is getting to the motor. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Williams Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 No. The Compact track voltage is based on the power supply, which can (per spec) be up to 18VDC. A multimeter will likely read high as it assumes a sinusoidal waveform not a square wave), so the actual peak voltage is probably a little less than that measured. Regardless, that voltage is still within the DCC maximum of 22V. Adrian Thanks for the clarification Adrian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 The Powercab puts out around half a volt less than the power supply. So if you use the max permitted of 15 volt 3 amp you should get 14.5 to the track and 1.7 amps of power. As stated it is a starter set, also it's American and they do tend to run their trains slower than we do. Could be worse, before I bought mine I was looking at another American system which only put 11 volts to the track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I have read this thread with great interest because I chose NCE to replace Hornby Elite some time ago and have been delighted with it. I must say, however, that I have procab and smart booster with the powercab as a throttle and have never used the powercab on its own. Whilst the responses to Rob's query are very informative, I feel that none of them has produced a solution and Rob is left with a very unsatisfactory situation, as he points out in his post at 15.09 today. BromsMods has made clear what the power output should be and Rob (it seems to me) has shown that he is getting the right track voltage so there must be another problem. In my opinion, if the Powecab on its own cannot run a modern DCC loco at sensible speed then either it is faulty or it is not fit for purpose (which I feel is unlikely) and should be replaced. Perhaps BromsMods could be asked to exchange the powercab in order to see if a different one works properly - alternatively, if you can visit a model shop with a layout, then take the powercab to them and try it on their layout with one of their locos (take your class 66 as well for comparison). Harold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 I don't have an analogue controller atthe moment but I am going to try and borrow one today to do some further tests on 12V DC. As it stands however, I think I will have to consider returning the Powercab as I don't think this situation is satisfactory. I will be talking to John off group about this, and, as I said, there is no criticism of Bromsgrove Models at all in this as the service when the unit was ordered was exemplary. ROB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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