Adrian Wintle Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 According to Russell, K38 Full Brakes went into Ocean Mails branding almost immediately after being built, and he has official photos showing one as built, and in the same livery but with Ocean Mails branding. My question is; what liveries did these coaches have during the 1930s? Presumably they got some form of simplified livery and then got shirtbuttons, but what sort of lining did they have? When did they stop being Ocean Mails coaches? Does anyone know of photos of these coaches in the 1930s? My Carriage Working book for 1938 doesn't seem to indicate the Ocean Mails workings explicitly (except for a 70' van), so I'm not even sure that there was any significant Ocean Mails traffic by then. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Was not Ocean Mails traffic in response to demand and treated as special? If that were so there would be nothing in the CWP and formations would be given in the weekly notices. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Thanks Chris. The fact that the Ocean Mails traffic was dependent on the shipping schedules occurred to me only after I had posted the question. I did manage to find a couple of photos in The Great Western Railway in the 1930s that show K38s - plate 37 has a single one in Ocean Mails branding, with what appears to be single lining and probably a shirtbutton, while plate 65 shows two, with the leading one again appearing to have the same single lining/shirtbutton livery and the second being indeterminate. They are both 3/4 front shots of the train, so not the best for determining liveries. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine coast Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Adrian, I have found a snippet of info on pg 119 GWR Coaches from 1890...Michael Harris... it notes K38s 1169-74 carried Ocean Mails replacing Dreadnought vehicles......"Following wartime (WW2) use as ordinary vans, 1170-74 resumed Ocean Mails duties in 1949"......this would infer that the only period that they were not Ocean Mails was the WW2 period .... hope this helps ... also a question of my own ...but relevant.... were the Ocean Mails vehicles,when branded as such, used on other services at all ????? Regards Trevor .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Thanks Trevor. I don't really have a good handle on the amount of liner traffic, so it is hard to gauge the utilization of the six Ocean Mails vans. They would have probably met ships at Birkenhead, Fishguard, and Plymouth (and possibly other places). I would expect that they were pre-positioned based on the scheduled arrival, and then attached to the next express heading for Paddington. What it does mean is that there is justification to attach one or more of these vans to an up or down express between Paddington and one of the major ports. I have some photos of one of the older Ocean Mails vans being loaded in Plymouth - they had a dedicated conveyor belt setup there. The photos of trains that I mentioned above were not en-route to/from Plymouth. One was at Patchway on the way to the tunnel, so may have been heading for Fishguard or the north. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHWestern Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Hello, I am new here. I thought I would comment as I looked into to this issue last December. My conclusion was that there is no conclusive evidence that these vans ran before the war without the prominent Ocean Mails lettering and that, as a consequence, these attractive prototypes are rather over modelled. For the ‘30s mainline modeller, I suspect that the K40 would be a far more versatile and common prototype. I have found the 2 Great Western in the 1930s volumes to be most useful in general, but I do not think they answer this point. Mr Wintle refers to plate 65. The editors (who know far more about GW coaches than I ever will) state that both the second and third vehicles in the formation are K38s; I remain surprised that anyone could confidently identify the diagram of the third vehicle. The caption notes that the first K38 bears the Ocean Mail lettering, implying that the second does not. As Mr Wintle observes, it is hard to determine the livery of this vehicle from the view. I have to regard this evidence as inconclusive. All the other pictures I have seen of these vans in GW days, whether at Swindon or in service, show the 'Ocean Mails' lettering. Interestingly, where K38s are pictured, they are generally not running on Ocean Mails or Ocean Special boat trains. With reference to the other plate (37) mentioned above by Mr Wintle, the K38 is running in a north to west express. The Ocean Special pictured in vol. 2 looks to be from the mid '30s and employs an old Dreadnought parcels van! I asked a GW forum recently whether there were any known non-branded K38s. I was given the following information: 1169 -70 both Ocean Mails. They also were marked "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic" from Dec 1930. Presumably this was on the solebar? 1171 Load to Carry 15 Tons" (1929) **No mention of Ocean Mails or "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic" 1172 Ocean Mails. Also were marked "Return to Plymouth" "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic" (Dec 1930) 1173 Ocean Mails. Also were marked "Plymouth Ocean" "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic"(Dec 1930) 1174 Ocean Mails. Also were marked "Return to Plymouth". "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic"(Dec 1930) So, if you were looking to run a K38 before the war without the Ocean Mails lettering, it looks like you are best to number your model 1171. That said, unless someone comes up with a convincing snap of one of these vehicles without that lettering, I’m not persuaded it would be safe to omit the lettering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Hello, I am new here. I thought I would comment as I looked into to this issue last December. My conclusion was that there is no conclusive evidence that these vans ran before the war without the prominent Ocean Mails lettering and that, as a consequence, these attractive prototypes are rather over modelled. For the ‘30s mainline modeller, I suspect that the K40 would be a far more versatile and common prototype. In the 1938 Carriage workings, K40s are specifically called out as 60'x9' brake vans. There are a lot of brake vans that don't have that restriction attached and are presumably things like K42s or (more likely) earlier toplight vans. I have found the 2 Great Western in the 1930s volumes to be most useful in general, but I do not think they answer this point. Mr Wintle refers to plate 65. The editors (who know far more about GW coaches than I ever will) state that both the second and third vehicles in the formation are K38s; I remain surprised that anyone could confidently identify the diagram of the third vehicle. The caption notes that the first K38 bears the Ocean Mail lettering, implying that the second does not. As Mr Wintle observes, it is hard to determine the livery of this vehicle from the view. I have to regard this evidence as inconclusive. I think that identification was based on the roof, as K38s had a fairly distinctive lack of ventilators. That with the visible layout of the doors/windows is probably enough. All the other pictures I have seen of these vans in GW days, whether at Swindon or in service, show the 'Ocean Mails' lettering. The only exception I've seen (pre-war) is the initial works photo shown in Russell, with faux-panelling and no branding, followed immediately by a second works photo with the same livery plus the Ocean Mails branding. Interestingly, where K38s are pictured, they are generally not running on Ocean Mails or Ocean Special boat trains. With reference to the other plate (37) mentioned above by Mr Wintle, the K38 is running in a north to west express. The Ocean Special pictured in vol. 2 looks to be from the mid '30s and employs an old Dreadnought parcels van! I asked a GW forum recently whether there were any known non-branded K38s. I was given the following information: 1169 -70 both Ocean Mails. They also were marked "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic" from Dec 1930. Presumably this was on the solebar? 1171 Load to Carry 15 Tons" (1929) **No mention of Ocean Mails or "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic" 1172 Ocean Mails. Also were marked "Return to Plymouth" "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic" (Dec 1930) 1173 Ocean Mails. Also were marked "Plymouth Ocean" "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic"(Dec 1930) 1174 Ocean Mails. Also were marked "Return to Plymouth". "For Plymouth Ocean Traffic"(Dec 1930) So, if you were looking to run a K38 before the war without the Ocean Mails lettering, it looks like you are best to number your model 1171. That said, unless someone comes up with a convincing snap of one of these vehicles without that lettering, I’m not persuaded it would be safe to omit the lettering. Thanks for the information. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 The editors (who know far more about GW coaches than I ever will) state that both the second and third vehicles in the formation are K38s; I remain surprised that anyone could confidently identify the diagram of the third vehicle. The authors had large format prints some as large as 15"X12". There are several areas to look to identify individual vehicles, and Soole kept accurate date records when he took the shots. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.