Heljan UK 89111 Turntable

[john dew]

Hi Harold

 

You havent exactly been overwhelmed with responses! Stuff sure gets buried quickly here.

 

I had a similar problem with Lenz DCC. The Heljan documentation isnt good and instructions on paper differ from those published on the web.

 

You may have already done the following in which case I apologise

 

[1] Programming for each new track should always start with the house at Track 1

 

[2] You can move the bridge back and forth using the two arrow buttons while you zero in on the new track but the direction of the final movement should always be the same as the initial movement from Track 1 ( I go clockwise)

 

[3] The house must always be at the the new track# when saving

 

[4] If you have a track at 9 oclock and another immediately opposite both must be programmed

 

[5] Even if you have a track at 12 oclock and no actual track at 6 oclock you should still programme a notional or passive track# at 6

 

[4] and [5] above create duplication in that you double the number of accessory numbers  but I was unable to get consistent results using a single accessory# to control whether the house was or was not facing the selected track

 

Using the above concept of a dedicated Accessory# for the house for each track# (including passive track#s) I can achieve consistent bridge orientation. using either Lenz alone or Lenz with RR&Co

 

Hope this helps

[HLT 0109]

Hello John - thank you for your guidance.

 

I think I have managed to get it right.  The written instructions confuse by being too brief rather than wrong - it is the reference to the automatic creation of a second stopping point at 180 degrees that needs greater information.  I had assumed that the bridge would stop each time one end reaches a selected track.  When I realised that that doesn't happen - it only stops when the hut end reaches it - I knew I woould have to programme an imaginary track directly opposite where I wanted the bridge to stop.

 

So far we agree.  But, each time I programmed the opposite track, the programming of the original was deleted.  The way mine now operates with Powercab is that, in order to get from 6.00 o'clock to 2.00 o'clock without turning the loco around, I have to select the notional track at 8.00 o'clock; if I then want to turn the loco around, I select the same track number again.  This seems satisfactory as it now takes the shortest route to the selected track - and it really doesn't matter if the bridge turns clockwise or anti-clockwise.  It also means that where I have two tracks directly opposite, they both operate on the same number - as it happenss, this is not the automatically numbered tracks 1 and 2 .

 

A couple of observations: (1) I am surprised that there is no provision for fixing the supplied control panel to anything - a couple of screw holes through the casing would help (or lugs on the sides) and (2) there is no provision for aborting a selection once the bridge has been set in motion.

 

An excellent product I think.

 

Harold.

[Kent K]

Hi John,

 

I have just tried to get it working with RR & Co. and it works ok. I would have loved to get the timing to work a little better though! I have the new TT 89121 and it seems to work a little different from what the manual says. With the default decoder address 57 I get the DCC turnout address 225 for the first track. 226 for the second, 227 for the third. And the funny thing is that +/- (siding/main-line) does not do any difference. E.g. if I go to track 3 (227+) and then presses 225+ it will take me to the first track. If I then go back to the third track and instead presses 225-, then the turntable will move again to the first track.

 

So as far as I can see, the manual for the DCC functions seems to be wrong. (Note that the manual that came with the turntable is named 89121 as it should, but the one you can download is for 89111).

 

It would be nice if you post how you connected the RR &Co.

 

Cheers!

/Kent

 

 

 

I have just installed the Walthers TT which is actually the Heljan TT in a Walthers (Cornerstone) Box.

The TT is indeed DCC ready.......you just hook it up to the DCC bus (see below!!!) There is a slightly complicated arrangement with the addresses....the default decoder address is 57 (but that can be changed) and from that ((57 x 4)+1 = 229 mentioned above) flows addresses for each of the tracks you set up

It was the work of a moment to get my lenz system operating it........each track is treated like a turnout so entering 229 + gets the house on the bridge to turn to Track 1........229 - will get the other end of the bridge to Track 1. Track 2 is the other side of the TT regardless if you have laid track

Calibrating is a little tricky and the numbering system can be quirky but once done the indexing is ultra accurate and consistent......and I am very happy with itn

Some words of warning.......the wiring diagram supplied with the TT was incorrect.....I had to download a PDF from the Heljan site......there is also quite a good instructional DVD. The earlier comments about keeping the pit and sensor super clean are still valid......the racking teeth are very small and the slightest amount of debris will jam............I remove my bridge and tape over everything when ballasting......and there I discovered another problem....if the bridge TT is hooked up and the bridhe removed.....you get a short! Its easily resolved once you have realised what the problem is but it would have been nice to have been forewarned.

Getting it to work with RR&Co took longer! Happy to explain if required

Regards from Vancouver

Edited February 22, 2013 by Kent K

[john dew]

Hi Kent

 

I had exactly the same experience as you with the + and - functions using Lenz DCC. The only way I could get consistent results was to use one address for the house and the next address for the separately programmed opposing track (even if it was passive) to get the non house end to the running track

 

The system I have devised for RR&Co is more than a little Heath Robinson. The TT is set up as Generic and I use a toggle switch set up with the address say 225 to actually move the bridge (I ignore the the +-). Thus there are two toggle switches for each track................one for House (225) and one for Non House (226).     Obviously where two tracks are facing, the two switches for one track serve both

 

To update the the mimic TT on the switchboard I have an On/Off switch set up for operations......again two for each track House and Non House.......

 

The on off switch will be activated by schedules as required. The operations for each switch are :

 

Matching Toggle Switch ON

 

Turntable ......the command is changed to 'Move bridge with house to Track x

 

On/Off Switch   OFF

 

I have 12 tracks (only two facing) so I have just finished setting up 20 switches and 20 toggle switches.

 

I am busy building the Engine Shed area so I havent yet written any schedules but the switches themselves are tested.

 

I will be interested to hear how your set up works I suspect it will be a far more elegant solution than mine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kent K]

Hi John,

 

Yes now I got everything up and running. More or less the same solution as you used.

This is how I did it.

 

1. I programmed the TT via its own controller to hit first the Main track (#1) and then all tracks leading to the RoundHouse (#2-#5). This is with the house side of the bridge towards the track.

(I had to start with my Main track as #3 and continue from there. After that, I removed the 2 preprogrammed tracks (#1 & #2). This way my #3 became #1. You can from what I understand not remove or change #1 and #2 until there are 5 tracks programmed.)

2. I then continued with the other end of the bridge towards the same tracks (#6-#10)

3. After that I set up RR&Co with a Generic Turntable and 24 tracks. (Just to be able to match the layout, probably even better with more tracks, to get the timing as perfect as possible during the rotation of the bridge).

4. I then disabled/removed all tracks that did not fit my layout. Keeping the number of tracks the same amount on both the left and right view.

By letting the left view have the tracks at the same "clock" as the "real" tracks, I got a very good timing when the TT rotates. The locomotive starts almost as soon as the TT stops.

5. I added 10 push buttons and set the address of these to 225, 226, 227, etc.

6. Back to the properties for the TT, now I added the 10 push buttons to the 10 tracks (5 active and 5 passive). I added each push button 2 time for both left and right rotation to the exact track (i.e. >1, <1, etc.). For each push button I changed the type to the one not toggling. (This is the bottom type. This is important since otherwise the turntable will go on forever.)

7. I added indicators to all tracks. I am using Lenz Occupancy detect LB101 and Feedback Module LR101.

8. I added stops in the RR&Co on the TT about 27 cm in from both sides.

9. For the tracks going to the Round House I added that the TT should be left in Reverse. For the Main track I added that the TT should be left in Forward direction.

10. Then for the tracks inside the Round House I added stops about 30 cm from the TT.

 

After that I set up a couple of schedules and it works absolutely perfect.

 

Cheers!

/Kent

[john dew]

Thanks Kent

 

That is broadly the same as the method I used......I rather wish I had removed the pre programmed tracks but I didnt think it through so my 6 round house tracks straddle TT track 2.............the numbering is so confusing with 4 discrete sets of numbers......Heljan/Lenz/RR&Co and actual.......I had to construct a spreadsheet to keep track (sorry!) of them all

 

I havent thought through the direction of leaving yet.....I will have to deal with that once I start scheduling!

 

Regards

[Kent K]

Ooooops!

 

I got a problem with RR&Co. When leaving the Round House, I wanted to reserve all the tracks in the schedule. I.e. on both sides of the Turntable, but RR&Co will not start the schedule.

 

This is how I did it.

 

I made a small schedule: Start=one track in the Round House. Via the Turntable. End on the track at the other side of the Turntable.

This just worked fine, until I added the Rule:

Reserve complete path to the destination. After that the schedule wont start. See attachment for error details. It seems like the schedule tries to reserve the turntable twice....

 

I have no clue as how to solve this. Since I want to be sure that the track on the other side of the TT is available before I start the schedule.

 

 

Cheers!

/Kent

 

[john dew]

Hi Kent

 

It sounds like a TT quirk TC has reserved the route to 69-4 - 36 and I am guessing that because it knows it is a TT route it locks the Turntable (note the reference to the TT and not the block in the error message) then it attempts to reserve the next block (36 the Bridge) which is already locked by virtue of being part of the TT

 

A couple of work arounds occur to me.....remove the rule that is causing the problem and then either:

 

 [1] make 36 Bridge a critical block ie the route and 70-2 must be clear before 36 can be reserved

 

or

 

[2] Make it a schedule condition that Block 70-2 is empty or its associated contact indicator is inactive

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards

[Kent K]

Hi John,

 

I tried your suggestions, with this result:

 

[1] gave the same result as before. I.e. block 36 locked ....

[2] works, but it will not guarantee that another locomotive enters 70-2 before the locomotive enters the turntable. 

 

I think I will have to either look ahead more blocks in the conditions in [2]

Or make the schedule go to the turntable. And then from the other side, schedules coming to the turntable have to reserve the complete path. I have to split up that schedule to as short as possible.

 

 

Cheers!

[john dew]

Try locking the left hand entrance to 70.2........that should work........and then unlock at end of schedule

 

We seem to be at similar stages with our Heljan...............I havent tried any schedules yet....hopefully tomorrow.....but I have done a lot of testing on the laptop using the simulator and for my purposes (which are, I think, slightly different from yours) I have come to the conclusion it is better to run a schedule from the entry block to the bridge (having first ensured the bridge is there!) and then move the bridge and then run a schedule from the bridge to the service road (at the conclusion of this schedule I return the bridge to the entry road.

 

Regards.

[tender]

Hi

Just come across this topic. Can anybody tell me if Heljan have sorted out the indexing with the new (89121) turntable. I had a Heljan Traverser that I was forever re calibrating as it would loose alignment after a period of usage. I believe this was also a problem with the 89111 turntable which stopped me buying one.

 

Ive seen the flieschmann TT being used on a few exhibition layouts and seems to be very reliable but very expensive.

[john dew]

I havent done any intensive operation yet but I have done a lot of testing..................the indexing is accurate and consistent...........I calibrate as a precaution at the start of a session and whenever the bridge is replaced. I have only had it lose indexing once and that may have been driver error and calibration fixed it

 

 

The teeth of the bridge track are much more narrowly placed than Fleischmann (I have a very old manual version converted to DCC/RR&Co)  and as such subject to collecting debris.......they appear to have magnetic properties for single pieces of loose ballast......so in addition to calibrating I have a morning brush out  

 

HTH

[Kent K]

Hi again,

 

I agree with John, the Turntable is very reliable this far. The indexing works absolutely perfect. Since I am in the phase of setting up everything, I am turning on and off the power a lot of times but that does not matter. From my understanding the turntable stores its position as soon as it has stopped and remembers it until the next time. So as long as you don't turn of the power during the rotation of the bridge, there is no need at all to calibrate the turntable. BTW. the turntable calibrates every time it rotates and one end of the bridge passes the LED in the pit.

 

So, to me, this far the Turntable is perfect.

 

If I should wish for an improvement  that would be to have some kind of indicator, telling when it is moving. But with RR&Co it is not needed since RR&Co do the counting based on the time for one complete round of the bridge.

 

/Kent

[tender]

..................the indexing is accurate and consistent...........

 

HTH

  

Hi again,

 

The indexing works absolutely perfect.

 

That's good to know. Will have to re-investigated this. I have motorised a Peco turntable but getting it to be DCC compatible for operation with RR&Co or RocRail isn't straight forward. Looks like Helijan have got it sorted now.

[Free At Last]

Has anyone had any alignment problems like here?

[john dew]

Has anyone had any alignment problems like here?

 

Not me.

 

Some questions

 

[1] If you calibrate does the problem go away or is it always there after a 180o turn

 

[2] How many tracks have this problem?

 

[3] Lets say the track with the house is Track 4.........is the reverse a separately programmed track# or are you keying in Track 4 or the DCC equivalent 

 

 

Off topic....I like your replacement for the house could I ask where it came from?

 

Regards

[Free At Last]

The problem is always there. Once the bridge has turned from two aligned tracks through 180 degrees, then both tracks don't align again. The bridge has to be calibrated to align to the exit road, which is ok on my installation as I don't have any spurs opposite entry tracks.

It seems the track on the bridge is not true in my example.

 

I used some of the spare handrail that came with the turntable, and the other parts, ie., winding gear, vaccuum hose and locking levers ( not shown in pic) were from a Dapol turntable kit. 

[john dew]

That is curious..........just for greater certainty and my apologies for asking the obvious:

 

Do you alway start programming with the house at Track 1 and do you always finish programming from the direction in which you started....ie start clockwise..last movement before finalising should be clockwise with the house at the new track ?

 

Even though you dont have spurs opposite the entry tracks do you separately programme the house to the non existent spur aligning the non house end to the entry track? You should have two separate commands for each entry track..

 

Have you tried deleting the non house track and reprogramming?

 

Your modification looks great......far better than the HO house

 

Time and space are very curious.......many many years ago I lived in Formby!

[Kent K]

Hi Pete,

 

I don't not have any alignment problems either. To me, it sounds like there is something wrong in the rotation. Could it be that the turntable has some faults in the gearing, that makes the rotation count the number of "tooth" in a faulty way.

My suggestion is that you look at all the tooth and see if anyone has been either lost or if the dip between two tooth are filled in. 

 

Cheers!

/Kent

[Free At Last]

It is nothing to do with turntable drive/progamming/calibration, or direction of rotation.

 

Wherever I position the bridge and line tracks up with both ends, then turn the bridge 180°, it does not align at both ends again even if I were to physically lift the bridge out, turn it and put it back.

 

[Kent K]

Hi again,

what I meant was that you should do an optical inspection of all the teeth in the pit, since it sounds like there is something wrong with one of them. Either one tooth is missing or there is some unwanted stuff in between two of them. That is as I can see it almost the only way that the bridge can come out of sync. 

 

The firmware knows how many steps the stepper motor need for 360/180 degrees. So when you order a 180 degree rotation it uses this amount of steps. But if for some reason the rackrail (toothed bar) have the wrong amount of teeth then what you experience will happened. Then the stepper motor steps will not match the expected rotation.

So, my best suggestion, use a magnifier and inspect all the teeth on both the bar and the motor.

 

/Kent

[Free At Last]

As I said, it is nothing to do with the programming or the drive. I can programme one end or the other to stop accurately anywhere I want.

 

My problem is...

If I programme the turntable bridge to stop with "A" end at track 1 and install another track (track 2) to line up with "B" end, then turn the bridge so that "A" end lines up with track 2, then "B" end does not line up with track 1.

 

I would think it more likely that the bridge, or the track on the bridge is not truly centered.

 

Edited March 14, 2013 by Free At Last

[Kent K]

Ok, then I misunderstood your problem.

But that raises another question or two.

 

Have you programmed one or two stops? I.e. one stop for track 1 and another for track 2.

What happened if you select track 1? Will it align to track 1 then? And if you then select track 1 again, to get 180 degrees rotation on the bridge, will it still align to track 1?

If this works, and you try the same with track 2. I.e. first select track 2, then again select track 2 for 180 degrees. Will track 2 be aligned if you do this?

As you said, it seems like the bridge is out of center. But it could be that it still works if you select the track that you actually want to enter/exit? 

Just out of curiosity it would be nice to hear the result of such a test.

BTW, have you contacted Heljan with your question? I once mailed them and they replied within a couple of days.

 

/Kent

[Guy Chapman]

On mine, the speed- button causes Err1 which cannot be cleared without powering off and on again. Heljan says the Speed+ and Speed- buttons do not work on this model but I am pretty sure they are not supposed to cause a fatal error.

 

Trying to set a location into Tr1 causes Err1 which cannot be reset without powering off and on again. Removing the bridge to relocate it causes Err1... well, you know the rest.

 

I can program in locations, select them via the handset, and the bridge swings happily round until I press Esc.

 

So I think my controller is faulty. That's tiresome.

[sotars]

John/Kent I have recently installed a Heljan 89121 TT and have followed your progress and instructions to the point of being able to control the TT from Push Button switches on the Switchboard.

 

I have set it up as a Generic TT, all tracks are assigned and represent the location on the layout. 3 active and 3 passive all digital addresses are set with the bridge in the specific location for each track. (6 locations).

 

I can drive the TT from a New TT window and the movement is represented in the Switchboard TT symbol including the orientation of the engine in the TT block.

 

If I am driving it from the Push Buttons on the switchboard the mimic does not work. Therefore the engine orientation is incorrect in the TT block. Can this be made to work with the push buttons?

 

I have also been unsuccessful at setting the operations of the TT to allow access to automatic control via for example other operators or schedules. If you are able to I would appreciate some pointers as to how to how you set up the operations tab and switches for automatic control. (Post #29 and #30)

 

Thanks

Alex