RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted January 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2017 Hi Simon. I've got it working but it just isn't particularly reliable. Here's a part of the signal box diagram to explain it: P1010094 - Copy - Copy (2).JPG I can't have crossover 26 reversed when point 22 is normal. 22 has to be reversed first, then 26 can be reversed. Similarly. to return 22 to normal, 26 has to be returned to normal first. The way I've done it is with the 2 microswitches shown in the first pic in post 1517 above. One feed to each point (26 works as a pair) is routed through the microswitches. When 22 is normal, the microswitch opens the circuit to 26, so the latter won't move: the circuit closes when 22 is reversed. Similarly with the switch on 26. What I am finding is that the position of the moving arm at the bottom of the Tortoises (whatever the correct term is!!!) is critical. I'm not dead sure of the reason they don't move fully all the time but I often have to get my hand underneath and just push them over ever so slightly to get the switch to work. Annoying when on my own, embarrassing with visitors!! My solution is to put very small microswitches at the end of the point tiebars to do the same job: the point blades are less dependent on full movement of the Tortoises than the arm on the Tortoises. As I've explained above the 2 outputs/microswitches on the Tortoises are used for frog polarity and signal interlocking with the points so I can't use those. If you, or any other follower, has a different/better idea, I'd be happy to consider it. Whilst typing the last sentence, it did strike me that maybe I could do it via the switches on the control panel. so here's a photo of the relevant switches to ponder on: P1010122.JPG Right at the moment, I haven't a clue but it's possibly worth thinking about - probably when I'm awake at 3 am or some other daft time!! More soon. Rod Hi Rod, Two thoughts occur to me - if you wanted to keep it the same as it is now, assuming that the theory behind it works when the tortoise arms go fully across - you could invest a little bit of cash (ok I'm being extravagant at £1.48 post free!) in micro switches with longer arms (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5Pcs-Micro-Limit-Switch-Long-Lever-Arm-Miniature-SPDT-V-153-1C25-Action-Home-/381549751664) so that the tortoise movement is guaranteed to activate it. Alternatively, you could run a couple of relays off the switches to achieve the same outcome. When 22 is thrown reverse, the relay activates the power to 26. There's also the potential to automatically set 26 up, when 22 is put normal, but the wiring would be somewhat more complicated for that scenario. I think, if it were me, I'd go with the longer armed micro-switches to start with, unless anyone comes up with some other brainwaves Nice idea tho, I like the reality - the modern modelling equivalent to interlocking in the box Nice Rich 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Hi Rod, Are you using one Tortoise per turnout? And I'm assuming one switch on each Tortoise is used for the frog polarity? If so, you have a free change over switch on each turnout that can be used to drive a relay, or, if you want to get more complex, an Arduino or similar. With tortoises, I think it is preferable to keep them powered, as they can relax if switched off, and this can lead to the blades opening slightly. This could cause a derailment on the locked turnout, so my approach would be to feed the switch of the locked motor from a relay so that its supply does not change polarity - thus you could pull the lever, and the Tortoise would simply "ignore" you. The same effect can be obtained by putting the relay between the switch and the Tortoise, with the potential benefit of an indicator to show that the lever is locked, if you wanted to go that far. I can sketch these, but after work... The advantage is that you don't need anything on show, and there will be no adjustment. The disadvantage is a couple of relays (few quid each if that) and some wiring. It also seems like more locking is possible / desirable. 21 dependent on 22, 24 & 27 dependent on 26, and so on. I have thought a bit about using an Arduino for locking, but I haven't got any further than thinking. (This is the easy bit of modelling...!) I think Fabrice Fayolle has done some work in this area, as have a couple of other regular contributors, there may be some useful links from the Arduino thread below. Let me know if it's of interest, and I'll sketch a circuit diagram later on. Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Hi Simon. Thanks for your comment/suggestion. I agree about the Tortoise motor relaxing a bit if the power's cut off and I think that's why the microswitches don't always work. I've not had any problem with derailments because of it. As I've mentioned before in relation to the switches on the Tortoises, both are in use: one for frog polarity and the other for the signal/point interlocking. This is why I had to go over to using the separate microswitches. Which then raises the question of how to operate the relays! I do like the thought of having the Tortoises continually powered if I could find a way to do it. As regards the further interlocking - no thanks!! The signals are all interlocked with the points so that the signal only clears when the route is correctly set: drivers drive to the signals. It was just those 2 points that were so obvious - they looked like a disaster waiting to happen!! Rod Edited January 31, 2017 by Dmudriver 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Hi Rod I must have missed the bit about the signal interlock, so apologies - but that does offer one potential solution, and a possibly better one is offered by the frog switch. As your layout is DCC, it is "permanently live", thus, you can use the frog polarity to set the relay; If you get a cheap 12V relay (something like this, http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/12v-dc-8a-dpdt-relay-n94ed but you can use much lower capacity contacts - and there are cheaper sources!) and connect the coil across the track possibly via a diode (not needed but may reduce heat in the relay coil), you should get reliable switching when you connect, and it should switch off when you disconnect. Assuming this works, you can connect one side to the frog, and the other to one of the rails - the relay will then switch dependent on the point position. Once you have that working, it is quite easy to use it for any interlocking you might want - you can replicate what you have now with the microswitches, or you can change the circuit as you can get relays with multiple poles. A two-pole change over will allow you isolate the switch/point lever so that the tortoise sees the appropriate polarity to maintain it in its "locked" position, irrespective of the switch position. I can do a sketch later, but if you cut the two wires from the tortoise to the switch, connect the tortoise to the moving contacts and the switch to the NC contacts, it will work as normal when the relay is not operated. If you connect the appropriate polarity to the NO contacts, the tortoise will be powered to the normal position when the relay is powered. hope this makes sense best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 Hi Simon. Thanks for that. I've read it 3 or 4 times and I think I'm getting my head round it. We did relays on an electronics course I went on a few years ago and I have to admit I struggled with them. A diagram would be useful when you've got time, thanks. I'd certainly like the Tortoises powered all the time rather than switched off as they are now. Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) .......... BREAKING NEWS ........... No, Everton haven't signed anyone on TDD yet!!!!! You may have heard of Status Quo going in search of the Fourth Chord ......... well, Paul Davenport has found (and fitted) the 65th lever!!! (see posts 1520/1 above) He tells me that the Skytrex levers come as separate castings, (not, as I assumed, in ready made blocks of 16) which have to be fitted to the ratchet base: they don't come assembled - hence the fiddly bit. He happened to have a spare in stock so we're no longer one lever short of a full frame!!! The box is getting close to completion and I'm looking forward to seeing the pics. I'll put them on here soon after I get them. More soon. Rod PS But they're still the GWR ones, Jon!!! Edited January 31, 2017 by Dmudriver 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) PS But they're still the GWR ones, Jon!!!Probably nicked from Birkenhead - not too far in a white tranny van Hat, coat and screeching tyres...... Or would be if the wheels 'adn't bin nicked as well. Edited January 31, 2017 by leopardml2341 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Probably nicked from Birkenhead - not too far in a white tranny van Hat, coat and screeching tyres...... Or would be if the wheels 'adn't bin nicked as well. LOL! If they'd been nicked from Birkenhead they'd be EXLNWR from Woodside or if they'd robbed the lever frame from the new box they built and never opened they'd have been the right ones! JF 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 LOL! If they'd been nicked from Birkenhead they'd be EXLNWR from Woodside or if they'd robbed the lever frame from the new box they built and never opened they'd have been the right ones! JF I thought, but am often (read as always if I open mi gob about it) wrong, that Woodside was GWR? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 I thought, but am often (read as always if I open mi gob about it) wrong, that Woodside was GWR?Hi Rod, Not entirely sure what the full history is of Woodside but the signalling was certainly provided by the LNWR and progressively modernised by the LMS/BR(M). A new box was built at Blackpool Street to the LMR type15 design but never commissioned before the station closed. I think it was dismantled and bits of it used elsewhere. Wonder if any of the lever frame bits ended up at WK.... JF 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy_anorak59 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) Woodside to Chester was LNWR/GWR Joint - the LNWR had responsibility for the signalling of the line IIRC. I believe the 'new' Blackpool Street box donated it's lever frame to a box in Shropshire that had been destroyed following a derailment there (Coton?) Old and new boxes together at Blackpool Street, Birkenhead: Edited July 22, 2022 by billy_anorak59 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wessy Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Aaaaawwwwwhhhhh, Jon!!! I should have known a signaller would spot that!! I had checked them against pics of the actual ones in the box and realised they were different, but ..... I am hoping no-one's going to notice from normal viewing distance and through the box windows - and no, there won't be lights in the box!! And (bit of a spoiler coming up), the diagram will be a representation of WKT's track layout, rather than WK's so no TCs or FPLs shown. Watch this space!! Glad you like it: Paul's done a few MR boxes in the past and as the main body of this box seems to be that design, he was more than happy (something about MR/LNWR rivalries in LMS departments?). It certainly looks good and it'll really add to the layout. Rod This model just gets better and better - what an excellent signal box! The discussion about levers, box design and Birkenhead Woodside reminded me that I have some information in various sources which, if not directly relevant to West Kirby Town, might be generally interesting. The sources are 'The Birkenhead Railway' by T B Maund (RCTS 2000), 'British Railway Layout Plans Vol 10 - LNWR in N Wales Chester and the Wirral' by John Swift (SRS 1996) and 'A pictorial record of LMS signals' by L G Warburton (Oxford 1972 but a reprint is now available). The Maund book is recommended for the sheer amount of detail and modelling opportunities. Now for the detail... The Birkenhead Railway was transferred to the LNWR and GWR on 1st Jan. 1860 and the Woodside terminus opened in 1878 when signalling was provided by the Gloucester Wagon Company. In January 1880, the block signalling regulations on the joint lines in the Birkenhead district were standardised as LNWR ones and from January 1885, the responsibility for signalling was taken on by the LNWR, so presumably any renewals or new work after then would be LNWR standard components. The main line was quadrupled around 1900 and a lot of new boxes were provided then. Although it was a joint line I think it always had an LNWR atmosphere. John Swift's track plan of West Kirby shows a 63 lever LMS frame which includes the connections to the joint station so you may not need to worry at all about the exact number! As for LNWR/MR rivalries in the new LMS, we might expect the MR to just assume that their arrangements would be the new standard, but just like the Horwich 'Crabs', Derby didn't get it all their own way. MR wooden signal boxes rotted at ground level, so the LNWR style brick bases were used. The MR hipped roof was too complicated so a simple gable was designed for the MR upper storey. Finally, the LNW staircase was thought to be too steep and so the MR gradient was used! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Rod, apologies that it's taken a couple of days, and sorry again that it's a tatty pencil sketch rather than the CAD I had in mind to do, but no time!! I have sketched a relay, could be called DPDT (double pole double throw) or DPCO (Change OVer) or 2PCO or some similar designation. Youll see it has a coil, which you energise to make it operate, and two sets of three contacts. When not energised, the C (Common) is connected to the NC (normally closed) and the NO (normally open) is not connected. When you energise the coil, the C connection transfers to the NO. So, coil energising... Connect the coil betweeen the stock rail supply for the reversed road, and the frog. When the point is normal, these are the same polarity and the relay coil will not be energised. When the point is reversed, the polarities are different and the coil will be energised. And locking... When the relay is not energised (not locked) you want the switch to operate the tortoise as normal, so the wires from the switch are connected to the two NC connections on the relay, and the wires from the tortoise are connected to the C connections. Try to ensure that these stay the same polarity! When it is locked, the NO connections should replicate supply when the point is in the normal position, so these are connected to the supply for the point lever. You might find you have to reverse these connections - if anything doesn't work, this one would be my bet! I hope the sketch is clear enough, if you have a problem, PM me! I should say that I haven't actually done this, I will check with the relays I have at home if I get a chance this evening, but I am happy that it will work. best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Hi Simon. Thanks for that. I understand it now - I think!!! I'll look at it again a couple of times and if I've any queries, I'll come back to you. It looks a lot neater that microswitches above baseboard level. Thanks agin. Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Hi all. My signal box is coming on very, very well. Paul's put an entry on his Facebook page about the WKT box and this is what he's said: "Another project over the last few weeks has been the construction of an O Gauge LMS (London Midland & Scottish Railway) signal box, in this case West Kirby (Town). I was only able to use photographs as a reference on this job. The main signal box is completely hand made from sheets of plastic, as is much of the interior. In addition, the box boasts a hand made, substantial coal / ash bunker, which were typically found next to such structures. The fully detailled interior (from the 1970/80's) includes a 65 lever frame. By this time, the layout at West Kirby had been reduced and many of the (white painted) levers were no longer in use. Other detailing includes the depiction of a typical instrument shelf, first aid box (BR-M of course), a signal man's megaphone, signalling publications, register desk and a copy of the Daily Mirror. The cosyness is added to by an armchair and a brace of stoves. My last job is the prototypical white painted sight shades that covered some of the windows, which will be fitted now that photography is complete." He's also going to weather the top part down a little and that's it. Here are the photos he's put on his page: As you would expect, I'm a very happy bunny!!! Just got to arrange collection/handover now. More soon. Rod 19 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted February 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2017 That's stunning Rod no wonder your a happy bunny! Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Very, very, very very nice Box that Rod. No wonder you are chuffed to bits with it. Craig. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jintyman Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 He's made a stunning job with that box Rod, as mentioned above, no wonder you're chuffed. Jinty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted February 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2017 Absolutely superb Rod. Will be a great addition to WKT.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railwayrod Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Lovely box Rod and the interior looks excellent too. Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Rod A recent post by Chaz is relevant to our discussion re the interlocking. You might find his approach of using a diode-controlled relay effective for your application. Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 Rod A recent post by Chaz is relevant to our discussion re the interlocking. You might find his approach of using a diode-controlled relay effective for your application. Best Simon Hi Simon. Thanks for that. I had already seen it on Chaz's thread and had thought I could use the idea. It also overcomes what I saw as a problem, namely that by your suggestion the relay would be powered by 16v AC (and I wasn't sure how to deal with that) whereas this fits in nicely with the 12v DC feed for the Tortoises. It also means I can set the relays up on a separate board close to the control panel with just the feed wires to the Tortoises requiring going under the boards for!! In fact, if I work it right, I probably wouldn't need to do that as I can intercept those wires as they leave the control panel. I like the idea more, the more I think about it!!! Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Rod, That's good, though I wouldn't worry too much about feeding the relay from AC, it should be quite happy Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Rod, That's good, though I wouldn't worry too much about feeding the relay from AC, it should be quite happy Best Simon The coil might get a bit warmer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Yes, probably I doubt that it's an issue however Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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