Castle Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Hi All, What am I supposed to do with this lot? Knowing that you all like a challenge (!), I thought that I would throw this out to the floor to see what you can make of it. As you may or my not know, I am building the collection that is housed at my home shed of 81E in 4mm scale, OO gauge in the GWR / BR (WR) transition from around 1948  (ish) to about 1955 (ish) period. Now the question is this. Being a loco engineering type and knowing comparatively little of the mysteries of the carriage and wagon workshop (where they make extensive use of some sort of engineering material that apparently grows on trees?) across the turntable where the 'tow behind engines things' are restored, what kind of formations of the preserved stock can I make up to be at least vaguely prototypical? I am well aware that what we have in preservation is not exactly what would make a useful collection in service so I thought this might tax a few little grey cells and provide a bit of entertainment for those in the know! I am willing to make kits and to kit bash to a fairly heavy degree. I have been known to scratch build too on occasion. The vast majority of the stock is available either RTR or as kits however so don't worry too much about that side of things - its my problem, not yours. As per the museum ethos at 81E, I would like to display as wide a range of workings as possible to provide historical interest rather than having a 'realistic balance' of services as I don't envisage ever being the type to run to a timetable! My layout will be very much the sort of watch things trundle past on a stretch of main line type deal with a hint of loco servicing depot for the display of engines not being gainfully employed. I would like to start thinking about this now as I would like to build up some trains from beginning to end, thereby completing it as a 'model train' and it will help to know these things when designing the layout. Don't make the trains too long please (a mental picture of all the GWS freight stock hooked up behind 3822 or 7202 springs to mind!) as I don't know what layout space I will get when we (eventually) move house! 8 or so bogie coaches seems a reasonable maximum. Also remember, if you run out of locos, coaches or wagons of a particular type - that's it! I, by my own rules, can't just go and buy another one. It is much like running a real railway... Try and use as much of the locos and stock as possible. The GWS coach list is at: http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/guide/coaches.html The GWS loco list is at: http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/guide/locomotives.html The GWS wagon list is at: http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/guide/wagons.html Formations that I have already decided on (although the last two are open to discussion / deletion / alteration) are: Auto Train #1 14XX Class No. 1466 + Dia. A38 Auto Trailer No. 231 (I couldn't not do this as it is effectively the GWS' first train!) Diesel Railcar No. 22 - a train in itself needing no stock at all... Whickham Trolley Auto Train #2 Dia. A30 Auto Trailer No. 190 + 4575 Class No. 5572 + Dia. U Auto Trailer No. 92 (I have always loved the look of an 'auto trailer - loco - auto trailer sandwich' style train!). The trouble is I then don't know about what to do with Dia. A26 Auto Trailer No. 212 (No. 212 was built as railmotor No. 93 in 1908, and coverted to an autotrailer in May 1935 and was still in service during my time period). Should I just add it to the rear of the above formation? Permanent Way / Civil Engineers Train 0-6-2 56XX Class No. 6697, Dia. U4 4 wheeled coach No. 290 as departmental stock,  Dia. T12 Chaired Sleeper Wagon with load, Dia. J28 Macaw B with rail load, Dia. O11 Open A goods wagon with permanent way gang tool load, Dia. P15 Ballast Wagon with load (x2), Dia. P17 Ballast Wagon with load, 'Grampus' Ballast Wagon with load, 12 Ton Hand Crane and Match Truck, Dia. AA3 Toad Brake Van I quite like the idea of but don't know what to use for: An express goods of some sort with lashings of siphons, monsters, pythons, XP rated goods vans, a full brake, et al behind a Hall size engine. Some sort of really swanky train with the special / VIP saloons, etc behind a highly polished 4 cylinder beast (guess which one!). A branch size passenger or even a mixed train. A brake down train (LMS crane I know!) A LARGE load on the Pollen E's and / or the Crocodile F? A shunting loco and shunter's truck on a positioning move, possibly DL 26 (not BR and just out of period I know, but I have a soft spot for this particular beast). Remember that, while I don't mind the occasional bending of history a little (see DL 26 above), not all the stock at Didcot is suitable for my time period. For example Avonside 0-4-0 saddle tank No. 1340 'Trojan' was sold into industrial service fairly early on in it's life thus wouldn't be eligible for the BR thing. Likewise, some of the coaches were doing sterling service as bits of architecture by this time... Also remember that certain things were converted before, during or after my time period. Steam railmotor No. 93 is the obvious one but S&T mess van No. 263 was converted from a brake van in 1952 so those earlier or later incarnations may be useful in plugging a gap in your chosen formation. So then, given that the GWS collection has (in my mind at least) miraculously all been restored to full working order and into transition era liveries / condition, what would you do with this lot? Just suggest a train formation and we will go from there. I will keep the list updated in these posts and as it develops, I expect we will get into a bit of horse trading of stock. Let's see where we go... Thanks for your input in advance and this should hopefully promote some interesting discussion that will be useful for others too! All the best, Castle PS: don't be witty and either include the broad gauge stock or suggest I give this lot up and go LMS / LNER / SR / diesel / modern image / 7mm scale / 2mm fine scale / other related non GWR / BR(WR) transition era Didcot collection in 4mm scale OO gauge suggestion - I know what some of you out there are like! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Re auto train 2 - practice varied from area to area but in South Wales, where 5572 worked for four and a half years, you would tend to find two trailers at one end of the loco rather than in a sandwich as you propose. If a third trailer was then added it would go at the other end of the loco. The same was true in the case of the Exeter and Plymouth areas. London was different, at least before the auto services were reduced after the Central Line was extended to West Ruislip, and you could find one trailer at each end of the loco. Later on you would find two trailers at one end. I am old enough to remember the Greenford branch being worked like that. Having said all that I'm not sure that there was a hard and fast rule [stationmaster?]. Ultimately it would depend on which way round the trailer was. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 Cheers Chris! Thanks for yor real life recollections. We will see how that one develops. I can see from an engineering point of view, that more than two auto trailers length from the engine could cause so much lost motion in the regulator linkage could make it difficult to control the loco. Now then everyone, on to my breakdown train. I have got the potential to have 2x Tool Vans, 2X Mess vans and an LMS 50 ton crane (obviously covering for a broken GWR one - or that's my excuse at least!). I presume motive power is anything that happened to be on shed at the time in case of an emergency so that is open to what's left in the display cabinet at the end of play. I will also need a brake vehicle - would this be an old coach (like the K14 Dean bogie brake or the Dean 4 wheel brake) or would it be a toad or similar? What would be the arrangement in the train? I seem to remember something about the preferred position of a crane with jib and runner in a train but can't remember what it was! Thanks again! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Now then everyone, on to my breakdown train. I have got the potential to have 2x Tool Vans, 2X Mess vans and an LMS 50 ton crane (obviously covering for a broken GWR one - or that's my excuse at least!). I presume motive power is anything that happened to be on shed at the time in case of an emergency so that is open to what's left in the display cabinet at the end of play. I will also need a brake vehicle - would this be an old coach (like the K14 Dean bogie brake or the Dean 4 wheel brake) or would it be a toad or similar? What would be the arrangement in the train? I seem to remember something about the preferred position of a crane with jib and runner in a train but can't remember what it was! Not sure why you would need two mess vans for one crew but the staff riding vans on LM in the 1960s would have included a guard's compartment and have been fitted with a handbrake so no extra brake van would be necessary. Again on the LM in the 1960s there was a requirement that a crane over a particular weight, which BD cranes of the day exceeded by a long way, should be marshalled next to the locomotive for normal travelling. Obviously once the train got somewhere near the site (assuming that both/all lines were blocked), it would be sorted so that the crane was the leading vehicle towards the mishap site. Any match trucks or relieving bogies would be lifted to the side of the track near the site. Judging from photographs in diesel days, the ER was not so fussy about where the crane was in the train as long as it was not at the back, being piped but not fitted. HTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 24, 2012 Re auto train 2 - practice varied from area to area but in South Wales, where 5572 worked for four and a half years, you would tend to find two trailers at one end of the loco rather than in a sandwich as you propose. If a third trailer was then added it would go at the other end of the loco. The same was true in the case of the Exeter and Plymouth areas. London was different, at least before the auto services were reduced after the Central Line was extended to West Ruislip, and you could find one trailer at each end of the loco. Later on you would find two trailers at one end. I am old enough to remember the Greenford branch being worked like that. Having said all that I'm not sure that there was a hard and fast rule [stationmaster?]. Ultimately it would depend on which way round the trailer was. Chris I'm sure that marshalling of the trailers was based on the best way of dealing with them at stations so there would be obvious sense in keeping trailers together whenever possible except when any other operational factors came into play such as picking up/dropping an additional trailer during the course of the day. However there was one very definite stipulation - that an auto engine was not allowed to propel more than two vehicles when the regulator was coupled through from the engine to the leading driving compartment. Beyond that the only other factor which came into play was the total load, i.e. provided it was within the total permitted load an auto-engine could propel a maximum of two vehicles but could at the same time haul as many as the gradient and load table for that configuration of engine allowed. Vehicles were calculated at tare weight plus 'the normal allowances made for milk, fish, parcels etc'. I'm not sure if this will work in tabular form but so I'll go for this approach - 1 in 40 4 coupled engines were allowed 72 tons, 6 coupled were allowed 90 tons; on 1 in 50 these figures incresed to 96 and 120 tons respectively; on 1 in 60 to 120 and 150 tons; on 1 in 80 to 144 and 180 tons; and on 1 in 100 to the maxima of 168 and 210 tons. (6coupled engine loads applied to both 0-6-0T and 2-6-2T engines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 Cheers everybody, HTH: I am not sure whether the GWR mess vans have a guards compartment in them. I can have a look on Wednesday as the C&W department use one (appropriately enough) as their mess vehicle! I don't think they do. I have had tea in it countless times but never asked questions about it... If not I think a nice old departmentalised brake coach will be the way to go. The only reason for having two mess vans would be that not only are there 2 of each at Didcot but also that the kit to build them comes in a twin pack (one tool van and one mess van) so I will have the kit to do all of them. More a case of waste not, want not I suppose but if it is one per train then one it is. The other can go in a siding somewhere or would it be appropriate on my P/W train? Were they used in these circumstances or just for brakedown work? They all seem to have locomotive and carriage department boards on them so I presume the poor P/W chaps didn't get a look in! I presume also that I should have a departmental coach too to transport the personnel? Not a problem as there were a great deal of the older vehicles at 81E that were departmental for a long time before withdrawal. I can always argue their use in such a role. Is a four wheeler ok? The crane at 81E is an LMS 50 ton Cowan & Sheldon Machine No. RS 1054: http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/locos/50tcrane/50t.html - so I presume that takes me over the limit as per the rule you have quoted for the LM region. Stationmaster: Thanks for that - it would seem then that it would not be beyond the realms of possibilities to have an Auto Trailer - loco - Auto Trailer - Auto Trailer formation running in either direction. That means as I finish my trailers, I can hook them up to little 1466 & 5572! I have nearly done No. 231, I am half way through No. 190 and I will decide how to do Nos. 212 and 93 when I am done with the first two... There will be many more questions everybody... Thanks again! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted June 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 24, 2012 Re auto train 2 - practice varied from area to area but in South Wales, where 5572 worked for four and a half years, you would tend to find two trailers at one end of the loco rather than in a sandwich as you propose. If a third trailer was then added it would go at the other end of the loco. The same was true in the case of the Exeter and Plymouth areas. London was different, at least before the auto services were reduced after the Central Line was extended to West Ruislip, and you could find one trailer at each end of the loco. Later on you would find two trailers at one end. Chris If you get "Great Western Auto Trailers" from White Swan (2 volumes) you find plenty of photos that contradict the above. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 If you get "Great Western Auto Trailers" from White Swan (2 volumes) you find plenty of photos that contradict the above. Keith I have both volumes, signed by the author. Keith, you have quoted me selectively, omitting the bit about no hard and fast rule which Stationmaster later amplified. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted June 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 25, 2012 I have both volumes, signed by the author. Keith, you have quoted me selectively, omitting the bit about no hard and fast rule which Stationmaster later amplified. Chris Sorry Chris. I didn't mean to offend you. I read it that you were suggesting that was normal, anything else was out of the ordinary. Reading the books I get the impression that anything goes, subject to local needs and engine power, the only hard and fast rule being no more than two either end if the regulator is connected. For anybody else they are extremely good books if you are interested in the history and working of GWR Auto trailers. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Keith, no offence taken. What matters is that Castle knows what to do with his auto trailers! I would endorse your recommendation of the books. John Lewis is not only extremely thorough but a good bloke. That the books are published by Wild Swan should speak for itself. My only regret is that he chose to describe the 1949 shade of red used by BR as maroon but that issue has got me into hot water before so I'll shut up! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted June 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 25, 2012 Keith, no offence taken. What matters is that Castle knows what to do with his auto trailers! I would endorse your recommendation of the books. John Lewis is not only extremely thorough but a good bloke. That the books are published by Wild Swan should speak for itself. My only regret is that he chose to describe the 1949 shade of red used by BR as maroon but that issue has got me into hot water before so I'll shut up! Chris I'm waiting to see the steam Railmotor 93 running with trailer 92 in the same livery. That should be something. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Thanks Chris, Ahhhhh! I have just had that conversation with the Carriage and Wagon Department myself with regards to painting little 190... I too was unsure as to the exact breed of red required! The weird things that old colour film does to colours over time doesn't help here at all does it? The extensive notes (based on the notebooks of Mr J. L. Baugh who worked at Swindon between 1934 and 1967) I was shown by the C&W guys indicate the you are right in saying that it is the crimson / red colour (blood of blood and custard fame) rather than the maroon. Have I just opened a can of worms here? In saying that though, the book Great Western Coaches in Colour by Kevin Robertson has that magnificent shot of the almost signal red auto trailer in it! The paint mixer at Swindon was having an off day or sneezed when adding the red pigment when that was done I presume.. Thanks Keith, I have seen these excellent tomes (I have The Great Weatern Way by Lewis et al and it is a cracking refrence volume!) in the shop at Didcot but it was buying them or the model railway stuff and as much as I love my books lined up asfar as the eye can see on my bookshelves I thought that I would get more use out of the models. Besides, that's what RM WEB is for isn't it?. When the right numbers come up on the lottery perhaps... Anyone out there going further with the brake down train formation for me please? All the best, Castle PS: It shouldn't be TOO much longer now for the Nos. 93/92 combination. No. 93 is back in traffic now and No. 92? Well, it's coming along nicely! Stay tuned to the society and railmotor project websites for details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 Hi All, What am I supposed to do with this lot? - The confirmed formations list thus far... Auto Train #1 14XX Class No. 1466 + Dia. A38 Auto Trailer No. 231 Diesel Railcar No. 22 Auto Train #2 Dia. A30 Auto Trailer No. 190 + 4575 Class No. 5572 + Dia. U Auto Trailer No. 92 + Dia. A26 Auto Trailer No. 212 Permanent Way / Civil Engineers Train 0-6-2 56XX Class No. 6697, Dia. U4 4 wheeled coach No. 290 as departmental stock,  Dia. T12 Chaired Sleeper Wagon with load, Dia. J28 Macaw B with rail load, Dia. O11 Open A goods wagon with permanent way gang tool load, Dia. P15 Ballast Wagon with load (x2), Dia. P17 Ballast Wagon with load, 'Grampus' Ballast Wagon with load, 12 Ton Hand Crane and Match Truck, Dia. AA3 Toad Brake Van Nobody has pulled me up on this one yet so it's ok I presume? I wasn't sure about the crane - any thoughts please? Shunter & Chariot on Positioning Move Diesel Shunter DL 26 + No. 100377 Shunters Truck (Converted from Mink A in 1953). On the 'drawing board'... Breakdown Train 43XX Churchward 'Mogul' No. 5322 + LMS 50 ton Cowan & Sheldon Brake Down Crane No. RS 1054 + 1908 Tool Vans Nos. 1 & 135 + 1908 Riding Vans Nos. 47 & 56 + a brake coach. I would like to use Dean Dia. T49 4 wheel brake third No. 416 but is this the sort of thing that might have been used? In the real world, it became a camping coach but brake vehicles are at a premium. I was thinking about using the Dean bogie brake but that was still in passenger service in the 1950s so it is too valuable to use here I think. Express Goods 49XX Hall Class 4-6-0 No. 5900 Hinderton Hall + No. S4409 6 Wheeled Milk Tank Dia. 3152 + No. 2862 Fruit C Fruit Van Dia. Y.9 + No. 2913 Fruit D Fruit Van  Dia. Y.11 + No. 105742 Motor Car Van “Mogo†Dia. G.31 + No. 116954 Motor Car Van “Asmo†Dia. G.26 + No. 565 Churchward “Python†Covered Carriage Truck Dia. P.19  + No. 484 Churchward “Monster†Covered Carriage Truck Dia. P.18 + No. 2796 Churchward “Siphon G†Bogie Milk Van Dia. O.33 + No. 1184 Collett Bow-Ended Full Brake Dia. K.40 'VIP' Passenger Train I would love a 'showcase train' of some of the best of the coaches that the GWR had (and the GWS collection has) to offer. Did this sort of thing happen? If it did, is the formation right or should the coaches be in a different order? 4073 Castle Class 4-6-0 No. 4079 Pendennis Castle + Dia. G62 Special Saloon No. 9002  + No. 9112 Collett Super Saloon “Queen Mary†Dia. G.60 + No. 9113 Collett Super Saloon “Prince of Wales†Dia. G.61 + No. 9118 Collett Super Saloon “Princess Elizabeth†Dia. G61 + No. 9083 Hawksworth First Class Sleeper Dia. J.18 + No. 316 Hawksworth Full Brake Dia. K.45 Thanks very much in advance again! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Hi All, I have been asking questions... The carriage and wagon guys have confirmed that the riding vans do have brake van capabilities. It's just that the one being used as the C&W mess has had these features carefully removed and stored in order that part of their highly important tea making facility (without which simply nothing would be done!) could be put in. Hence my confusion. The other riding van on site still has all the guard's kit inside. This is good news on the formations front as it frees up another brake vehicle - hooray! Any thoughts on the VIP passenger train formation or the use / position of the hand crane in the P/W train at all anyone out there please? All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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