Theory of General Minories

[Chris116]

14 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

If you replace the last point plus the 3 way in the fiddle yard with a double slip and a point you get two  longer sidings plus a third one the same length you have drawn. If you are familiar with Berrow and Marthwaite you will see how similar your idea is and they were popular enough. You would need to ensure access to the fiddle yard to make it easy to swap locos about.

I agree about the fiddle yard entry although I have a specially built sissors crossover made from four Peco medium streamline points and a diamond which I am going to use in my mainline fiddle yard on my own layout.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

43 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

 

Well here is my first try at something that I think may be of use.

 

The top section with the red tracks is the fiddle yard behind a backscene and the single track station. At the other end is CJF's best, Minories with a couple of extra sidings to make goods trains between the three places possible.

Hi Chris, I had to count the squares to check it’s only 16’ long - always a good sign if a layout looks bigger than it is.

 

I like the way you’ve added a engine release crossover to Platform 3 at Minories, making it more like a bay to serve the secondary station - I know there are no crossovers in the original theory, but I think balancing the facilities like this could makes the whole system work more coherently.  

I also like the way that angling Minories opens up the possibilities on the right hand side, something else I’d not thought of.

 

Keith.

[Chris116]

1 minute ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Hi Chris, I had to count the squares to check it’s only 16’ long - always a good sign if a layout looks bigger than it is.

 

I like the way you’ve added a engine release crossover to Platform 3 at Minories, making it more like a bay to serve the secondary station - I know there are no crossovers in the original theory, but I think balancing the facilities like this could makes the whole system work more coherently.  

I also like the way that angling Minories opens up the possibilities on the right hand side, something else I’d not thought of.

 

Keith.

The loco release on platform three is to enable goods trains to be shunted in that area using the platform as the run round for the loop and sidings. That in turn means freight can come from the fiddle yard be sorted at Minories and then some of the freight go forward to the single track station which has a loop and siding for the purpose. 

 

The brown blob in the middle of the layout is a bridge which I hope would help to hide the short distance between the two stations. I was in fact trying to see if it would be possible to have a Faller style roadway going the length of the layout but it would need an extra six inches to fit in.

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

The loco release on platform three is to enable goods trains to be shunted in that area using the platform as the run round for the loop and sidings. That in turn means freight can come from the fiddle yard be sorted at Minories and then some of the freight go forward to the single track station which has a loop and siding for the purpose. 

 

The brown blob in the middle of the layout is a bridge which I hope would help to hide the short distance between the two stations. I was in fact trying to see if it would be possible to have a Faller style roadway going the length of the layout but it would need an extra six inches to fit in.

 

The run round would also allow the branch passenger set to run round without bothering the station pilot, so it serves another useful function.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

23 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

The run round would also allow the branch passenger set to run round without bothering the station pilot, so it serves another useful function.

That’s how it looked to me - I think the run round is just about long enough for a two coach train (with a tank engine that fits the secondary station and generates minimum sideswipe as it runs round).

 

It does very much like a CJF system (a high compliment)

[Chris116]

I had thought of the main line (Minories to Fiddle Yard) being run by DMU's and a steam service on the branch. The goods could be diesel or steam hauled. 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I like the idea a lot, because it takes a couple of good concepts (Minories and the micro-terminus in front of the FY) and welds them together to make something that can stand very intensive operation ........ lots of playing trains!

 

Having an urban setting for the lot would make it more believable than more rural ‘twig’ layouts.

 

It might be worth having three roads cross the boundary, so that the twig-to-minories can be operated completely independently if wanted, maybe by switching-on an autotrain or railcar shuttle. Useful at an exhibition for those moments on Sunday at about 1430, when you're a bit tired and loco sheds its valve-gear all over the down main or a point tie-bar disintegrates.

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Nearholmer

[t-b-g]

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, I like the idea a lot, because it takes a couple of good concepts (Minories and the micro-terminus in front of the FY) and welds them together to make something that can stand very intensive operation ........ lots of playing trains!

 

It might be worth having three roads cross the boundary, so that the twig-to-minories can be operated completely independently if wanted, maybe by switching-on an autotrain or railcar shuttle. Useful at an exhibition for those moments on Sunday at about 1430, when you're a bit tired and loco sheds its valve-gear all over the down main or a point tie-bar disintegrates.

 

You would need to change one of the points in Minories into a slip to make the branch independently operational but if you did, the complex junction near the fiddle yard could go, the fiddle yard could be longer, you could take the divider hiding the fiddle yard all the way to the bridge and you could also have an arrival, a departure plus the branch train running all at once.

 

Apart from that, it is a rubbish idea!

[Nearholmer]

Yes, well, in the sketch I left part of the complicated junction in place, because its visually interesting, but I got the slip right!

 

I wouldn't dive straight into the FY, I'd want a bit of plain track, or the vestiges of the junction, between two bridges, to convey that full-on smokey urban feeling. If you did leave out the junction, the line to Twig Street could climb slightly, creating even more claustrophobia on the main.

 

As an alternative to a passenger station, Twig Street could be one of those very intense urban coal depots, with "drops".

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Chris116]

If I was going to introduce a gradient then I would have Minories at 0 with the fiddle yard at -1 and Twig Street at +1 to give a bigger difference between the FY and TS.

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, well, in the sketch I left part of the complicated junction in place, because its visually interesting, but I got the slip right!

 

I wouldn't dive straight into the FY, I'd want a bit of plain track, or the vestiges of the junction, between two bridges, to convey that full-on smokey urban feeling.

 

I would perhaps move the bridge to the right, so the double track run is on the Minories bit. I think I would like to see more of the three line section, with the mains and the branch, as trains arrive and leave Minories, rather than more branch on the other side. I would still probably lose the second junction to the branch. It would allow a more conventional run round at the branch as your arrangement means one siding is lost as it must be kept empty as a headshunt and it would solve the problem of making the double track vanish into the fiddle yard behind the throat of the branch terminus.

 

All these things have to be really down to personal choices. Once you get to this sort of detail, various things will work and it just comes down to which the builder likes the look of best.  

[t-b-g]

1 minute ago, Chris116 said:

If I was going to introduce a gradient then I would have Minories at 0 with the fiddle yard at -1 and Twig Street at +1 to give a bigger difference between the FY and TS.

 

That would work better if the branch was independent all the way from Minories.

[Nearholmer]

With an entirely separate branch, climbing, Twigg Street begins to make me think of Holywell Town.

[Chris116]

Version 2 with the branch coming out of platform three and on an up gradient to Twig Street while the double track main line falls away into the fiddle yard. I have moved the bridge to give a longer run from Minories before the bridge and altered the fiddle yard as I have a sissors crossover made from peco points which I am going to use on my layout.

 

 

Having looked at the layout again I would probably extend the Minories platforms about 8 inches and reduce the plain track run. 

 

EDIT I think maybe shorten the fiddle yard so the sidings are the same length as the platforms at Minories. That lengthens the run and gives plenty of room for an urban built up area between the two stations at the front and all the way along the back from the bridge to the end of Minories Station. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Chris116
More information.

[Izzy]

This basic concept, a small town branch terminus with a twig branch, rather reminds me of the Berrow branch, the twig being in front of/hiding the fiddle, and that really, there is nothing new under the sun!
 

Izzy

[Nearholmer]

Its very much the Berrow - East Brent idea, or Buckingham and Stony Stratford, which is part of why I'm plugging to heavily urbanise it, more bridges, more stygian-ness, to minimise the resemblance to these more rural forbears and build from the Minories aesthetic. No trees!

[St Enodoc]

58 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Its very much the Berrow - East Brent idea, or Buckingham and Stony Stratford, which is part of why I'm plugging to heavily urbanise it, more bridges, more stygian-ness, to minimise the resemblance to these more rural forbears and build from the Minories aesthetic. No trees!

Charford too.

[t-b-g]

5 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Charford too.

 

Add Marthwaite to the list although from memory, that may have been a stone/lime works in front of the fiddle yard rather than a passenger station but it is a long time since I read the articles! It may have catered for both types of traffic. Whichever, it was a twig off a branch to hide the fiddle yard.

[john new]

On 08/06/2020 at 17:11, Pacific231G said:

You could use P87 on those points and the checkrails are purely cosmetic.

Wrenn (and others) described It as "universal" as the closing frogs mean that, so long as the gauge was 16.5 (or 12 in the case of TT) anyone's wheels would run through it . In those days manufacturers were notoriously proprietary in their wheel standards, flange widths, back to backs etc.  Hornby-Dublo, Trix, Tri-ang and BRMSB were barely on the same planet and I think for TT there were products around from Tri-ang but also Rokal with different wheel standards.

Though John Ahern had upgraded most of the main ones, quite a lot of points on the Madder Valley still have closing frogs so when he first built it he probably faced the same problem with inconsistent wheelsets.

A style of point much missed in today’s finer-scale era.

[Harlequin]

I'm afraid this is not very clever but here's an attempt at the anti-Minories, Seironim.

 

 

It's another small double-track terminus in a cramped urban location but a different style.

• It's the same size as Minories SP35 - i.e. 7ft by 1ft.
• A central road can be used either for loco release or for carriage storage.
• At Seironim there's less need for pilots - locos can release themselves from their trains and quickly scuttle back to Minories.
• Van traffic has to be shunted across before it can depart.
• Long trains arriving at platform 2 should just fit but the loco will be trapped and either have to shunt the empty carriages back a bit or be released by a pilot.
• When connected to Minories it would work best with Zomboid's hidden FY access in between to expand capacity and allow shunting movements to remain hidden.
   

Edited June 12, 2020 by Harlequin

[Compound2632]

I quite like that but a question: with the extra length needed for the loco release, can it handle trains of the same length as the equivalent Minories?

 

The centre road can't easily be used as a carriage siding - at least not for full-length trains - if it's also used as a loco release.

 

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the parcels bay being a facing connection off the arrivals line. It involves shunting back up the arrivals line. Wouldn't it be better on the other side of the station, where it can be shunted off the departure line? The pilot can still detach vehicles from the rear of arrivals at either platform. In any case, it needs a trap.

 

This layout is a case where having the main lines coming in at an angle would help, enabling the station to be straight.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Compound2632

[Keith Addenbrooke]

21 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I'm afraid this is not very clever but here's an attempt at the anti-Minories, Seironim.

 

 

It's another small double-track terminus in a cramped urban location but a different style.

• It's the same size as Minories SP35 - i.e. 7ft by 1ft.
• A central road can be used either for loco release or for carriage storage.
• At Seironim there's less need for pilots - locos can release themselves from their trains and quickly scuttle back to Minories.
• Van traffic has to be shunted across before it can depart.
• Long trains arriving at platform 2 should just fit but the loco will be trapped and either have to shunt the empty carriages back a bit or be released by a pilot.
• When connected to Minories it would work best with Zomboid's hidden FY access in between to expand capacity and allow shunting movements to remain hidden.
   

I’ve started some rough sketches for a Seironim, and like yourself have been thinking of curving the platforms in the same way, in my case to give added length to Platform 2 (which was coming out too short).  My sketches don’t look anything like this good.
 

I like the 3 track design - a similar size to Minories but sufficiently different.  A nice overall roof to finish it off could look great?

 

With Zomboid’s centre piece you could have a nice exhibition set up - you’d want multiple operators.  For home use I guess we’d need to ask Zomboid how a curved centre piece would work, to fit into an L shape for a layout room.

[Zomboid]

22 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

When connected to Minories it would work best with Zomboid's hidden FY access in between to expand capacity and allow shunting movements to remain hidden

Here's an improved version, still only 4' long. I used code 100 templates, but the only difference is the symmetric 3 way, and if that's actually the code 75 asymmetric one it won't have anything to do with the price of fish.

Obviously more tracks at the Alternate destinations are possible, but I'd be tempted to keep it to no more than 2 - the idea is to eliminate a FY, not create a vast amount of hidden storage.

 

This allows a slow train to leave Minories, and head to the Alternate Destination. Subsequently a fast train leaves and runs directly to Seironim. The slow train backs into the Seironim Alternate Destination, and then proceeds to Seironim, having been overtaken en-route by the fast one. It's basically a really dreadful magic show  Alternatively a loco could sit on the bypass and take a train back to either side from the alternate destination.

 

Adding a shunt neck for Seironim allows it to be shunted using the outbound track without interfering with operations at Minories/ MAD/ arrivals at Seironim. Minories would be shunted using the MAD lines.

[Zomboid]

7 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

With Zomboid’s centre piece you could have a nice exhibition set up - you’d want multiple operators.  For home use I guess we’d need to ask Zomboid how a curved centre piece would work, to fit into an L shape for a layout room.

That's one for the lunch break, then. With difficulty I would expect.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

11 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Here's an improved version, still only 4' long. I used code 100 templates, but the only difference is the symmetric 3 way, and if that's actually the code 75 asymmetric one it won't have anything to do with the price of fish.

Obviously more tracks at the Alternate destinations are possible, but I'd be tempted to keep it to no more than 2 - the idea is to eliminate a FY, not create a vast amount of hidden storage.

 

This allows a slow train to leave Minories, and head to the Alternate Destination. Subsequently a fast train leaves and runs directly to Seironim. The slow train backs into the Seironim Alternate Destination, and then proceeds to Seironim, having been overtaken en-route by the fast one. It's basically a really dreadful magic show  Alternatively a loco could sit on the bypass and take a train back to either side from the alternate destination.

 

Adding a shunt neck for Seironim allows it to be shunted using the outbound track without interfering with operations at Minories/ MAD/ arrivals at Seironim. Minories would be shunted using the MAD lines.Thanks 

Could I suggest one small change to help connect to Harlequin’s Seironim: have the shunting neck the other way round to face Minories, then shunt Seironim from the SAD line, as this gets access to the Parcels / Milk / Van bay?