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Ian Smeeton

Paisley St James Spaghetti, new shoots

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I have already started a topic in "modelling musings and miscellany" in the hope of flushing out extra info and photos, however, as I have been dormant for far too long at the modelling workbench, I thought that I had better extract the digit and get on with it.

Inspiration came from a couple of aerial photos from Britain from Above http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/sites/default/files/imagecache/download/sites/all/lib/aerofilms-images/public/scotland/SAW017828.jpg and http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/saw017831 which show several views in the series taken of Arbuckle Smith & co, but which also include St James Goods Yard, a little of the Underwood Mineral depot and of course the station.

There are a few more modern images of St James Station, however, I have only come across one other online, which shows the station in its pre-electrification guise at: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sealed/paisley/stjames2.jpg

I have made a start on the goods shed, guessing its length at about 100'

There don't appear to be any photos anywhere of the road vehicle loading side, and the aerial photos only show the opposite wall in the shade, so I have assumed that there are four loading docks for road vehicles. Should hey have opening, or sliding doors, though? Good question, I'll leave that for now.

The station buildings are reminiscent of the West Highland Line station at Arrochar & Tarbert, so I might do an adaptation of the plans in the Modeller of a few years ago.

Other points of interest are the sheer number of wagons in the yard.

Two locos appear to be present in the photos, one shunting the Goods Yard itself, and one involved in some loose shunting in the neck of the Underwood Mineral/coal depot.

So far, I have put together a few lengths of Easitrac, however, I have not yet tried my hand at turnouts.

Methinks that it is time that I extracted another digit.

As an aside, if anyone can identify the two locos in the second photolink, I would be very grateful.

Long post, waffling as usual, time to get on with it.

Best Regards

Ian

 

 

Edited to change title

Edited by Ian Smeeton
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PSJ is an ex-Caledonian station, whereas the WHR was North British. There are more appropriate station drawings and a good photo in "A Pictorial Record of LMS Architecture" by Anderson & Fox. Let me know by PM if you would find these useful but can't get any access to them.

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If you are a 2mmSA member join the Virtual Area Group. Jim Watt is your man for CR matters.

Don

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As an aside, if anyone can identify the two locos in the second photolink, I would be very grateful.

 

The 4-4-0 looks like a Caley 139 (Dunalistair 4) class, judging by the splashers and blower pipe position... there's a clearer photo of its other side here ... if you log on and zoom in, you can just about read the number as 144xx which fits a 139.

 

The 0-6-0 is a bit harder to place since it's mostly in shadow and a tree unhelpfully hides the front end ... to me the boiler looks too large, and the cab cutout too curved, for it to be a Caley Jumbo (294 class, LMS 2F) ... the lack of tender coal rails argues against a Pickersgill 300 class (3F) ... it's in BR livery so it's not a 30 class, they were all gone by 1946; so I think it's an 812 class. But I'm guessing really - maybe the Caley experts can weigh in?

 

Great aerial photos - thanks for posting the links.

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Many thanks for the info on the loces.

 

Interesting to see that one has BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender, the other still with LMS. Also, I can see one wagon lettered GW in the nearest siding to the Main Line. I wonder how many others were similarly lettered.

 

Unfortunately the angle of the sun in the aerial photos means that the sides of the wagons are mainly in shadow.

 

The other thing that struck me was the single clerestory coach with access steps in the second siding.

 

Any ideas to its origin/diagram no etc.

 

Was this used as the goods depot office? I cannot see it being a camping coach in such a less than salubrious location.

 

The photos deserve close study. The sheer No of wagons in the yard is one thing, but noticeable is the quite large number of 16t minerals. This early, I suppose that they are mostly Ministry of Supply designs rather than BR16t Minerals proper, but it would be useful to work out the proportions overall (work in hand)

 

Best Regards, & thanks for the help so far.

 

Best Regards

 

Ian

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This photo http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/sites/default/files/imagecache/download/sites/all/lib/aerofilms-images/public/scotland/SAW032168.jpg shows the Ayrshire lines from Gilmour st, with just a little of the Underwood coal depot in the background.

 

Of interest is the makeup of the train, with a 5 plk wagon immediately behind the loco, followed by a (Syphon?), two passenger coaches, a (Southern PMV?), three more passenger coaches, a couple of standard box vans then a real mix of general merchandise, coal & tank wagons.

 

I certainly wasn't aware of mixed trains working this neck of the woods, so, the games afoot.

 

Any explanations

 

Best Regards

 

Ian

Edited to remove typos

Edited again to repair link

Edited by Landlord

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Link doesn't work, Ian (404 Not Found). 

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The buildings @ St James were standard Caley Southern area wooden buildings from the 1880's Until recently one of these buildings still stood at Lanark Station. It has probably been demolished now as the glass had been removed from the veranda last time I was there. Ther are pix of St James in several books by George C O'hara and Jack Kernahan. You may also try the CRA Who stock building drawings amd also have an arcive of photographs Due to its proximity to Ferguslie Park. St James was not regarded as a very salubrious area so pix in the 50-60's era are rare. CRA can be contacted via its website  www.crassoc.org.uk

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Paisley St James is now on the front rather than the back burner.

 

A few evenings playng with Templot tm should show the main part of the yard entrance and associated pointwork:

 

post-89-0-69917900-1459632323_thumb.png

 

Underwood yard will lead off at a lower level to the right, however, I am not sure whether to include the 'Vinegar Works Branch', or to leave that as a handy exit at the back of the scene.

 

Viewing is from the bottom of the screen.

 

The man lines are on an embankment/viaduct, with St James'Yard proper at the same level as the man line, but Underwood Yard slopes downwards towards the right

 

At last, it looks like I am out of the Armchair, and if not actually making serious progress, I am at least sitting on the footstool of the modellers on RMWeb who have actually achieved somethng.

 

Best Regards

 

Ian

Paisley St J 1.box

Edited by Landlord
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Weather far too good accordng to Mission Control (SWMBO) to stay ndoors playing with my train set (her  words, not mine), so 2 days of intensive garden maintenance have left me enough tme and energy only to have another play with Templot.

 

Latest Plan

 

post-89-0-15267200-1460292594_thumb.png

 

The man lines are along the bottom, Gourock to the laft, Glasgow to the right.

 

St James' Goods Yard upper left, Underwood Yard to the right, and the branch to what appears on the 1912 OS 1:2500 map to be a vinegar works going straight up the middle.

 

I thnk that I have all the main elements of the track plan in the right order and more or less in the right places.

 

I would like to try and get the 1912 Map as a background in Templot, and rejig the plan to fit that, however, short of physivcally buying the map and scannnng the bitds that I want, I am stumped at the moment.

 

I might just go and read the instruction, you never know, it might help.

 

Regards

 

Ian

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I would like to try and get the 1912 Map as a background in Templot, and rejig the plan to fit that, however, short of physivcally buying the map and scannnng the bitds that I want, I am stumped at the moment.

 

Hi Ian,

 

I have been making some changes to make it easier to use multiple scans in Templot, see:

 

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2868&forum_id=1

 

Unfortunately that is not yet available until the next Templot program update.

 

Is this the map you mean?

 

post-1103-0-22937800-1460309530.png

 

If so I will do it for you if you wish, and post a background file ready to use in Templot. But please post your .box file so that I can align it. You can post .box files here on RMweb.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

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Martin, do you never rest?

 

I think that this attachment will be the .box file

 

Paisley St J 1.box

 

I have been playng in Paint.net and have managed to stitch together chunks of the map broken down into manageable pieces, however, the file size for that is n excess of 3MB.

 

post-89-0-94212600-1460311347_thumb.jpg

 

I have pasted the scale from the map on to the selected chunks to give some idea of the adjustments needed to alter the scale to 2mm/ft

 

Although it would be nice to build to the full size of the map, I think that some compression will be needed. Otherwise it ends up at about 5.5 metres long, and I probably only have 4m to play with.

 

Regards

 

Ian

Edited by Landlord

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A little adjustment of the track plan over the background of the map has taken place.

 

I am no technophile, and it does show. I was quite pleased that the main section of pointwork at the entrance to the yard fitted quite well on the map.

 

It is a little shorter than scale, though, which suits, as the original idea was to get as much as possible of the pointwork on 1 4x2 board. Re-jigging meant that the [plan stretched a little, but I was able to place the majority of the points and crossings on two separate boards.

 

It took a little while to get Templot to print just the pages that  wanted, however I got there in the end.

 

I have decided to build at least the first couple of turnouts on the bench rather than on the board, for better access. Once I am happy with these, I will probably continue on the baseboard, except for a couple of the more complex items.

 

post-89-0-14983400-1460819200_thumb.jpg

 

Just three Peco unpainted wagons (rewheeled) to give an idea and provide a bit of scale.

 

I have printed out separate templates for the fist two points, and attached them to a couplle of pieces of planed softwood. As you can see at the top of the photo, I have got as far as laying out copperclad sleeper strip so that I can make a proper start.

 

Negotiations are now in progress as to just how much space and time that I can take up on our dining table, and what equipment I am allowed to use without fear of dire retribution.

 

Regards

 

Ian

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With regards to the traffic through St James, there were obviously the passenger trains to Gourock/Wemyss Bay, however, freight has been a little more problematical.

 

I have been having a trawl round the web for Working time tables, traffic notices etc, but there isn't much from my very loose 1950-1965 time period.

 

Thinking outside the box, meant looking at Pressed Steel, who were based at Linwood before Rootes built their car [plant there. I was aware of the some of the Railway stock built there (Class 303, 117 and 121 and also some of the many varieties of 16 T mneral) but had a trawl through looking for railway related photos of Pressed Steel.

 

Qute a variety of things built there, so there should be (modellers licence permitting) an excuse to run some trains of new stock for delivery.

 

The rest of the trains for the Paisley and Barrhead line would be manly coal with some merchandise in opens and vans.

 

I will have a trawl through the Britain from Above website potos of Greenock and Gourock for further idease, but I suspect that the usual suspects of coal, coal, more coal, merchandise, and I would think, a reasonable amount of Steel Plate for Shipbuilding.

 

In the centre of this photo:

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/saw017828

 

is an oil works, or possibly a vinegar works depending on the period if the map consulted. Several tank wagons are just visible if you zoom in on the photo. I would like to try and get a better view, or an idea, of what these were.

 

Regards

 

Ian

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Some suggestions :

 

In 1950-65, I think there would still have been a lot of steel going to Greenock and Port Glasgow for shipbuilding.

 

There was also a shipbreaking yard in Port Glasgow, which would have generated outward scrap steel loads.

 

There was traffic to and from Bishopton ROF.

 

Sugar refining in Greenock would have generated traffic - at least some of the sugarhouses were rail-connected into the 1960s.

 

I presume some of the output of the Gourock Ropeworks (which was actually in Port Glasgow) would have gone by rail.

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United Molasses had a depot in Greenock, so that might have generated some traffic

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My modellling period is 1950-1965, approximately, so fairly wide, however, even though I lived n the area as a boy, I was born after most of the interesting stuff had finished.

 

I do have memories of 3/5 plank wagons on the dockside in Greenock at Victoria Harbour, however, I would have only been 4 or 5 at the time, so probably 1967-1970 ish.

 

There are photos on Railscot of UM tanks at Bogston, and there was certainly traffic into/out of James Watt Dock until at least the late 70s.

 

Upper Greenock was the site of one of the Sugar Refineries and was still rail connected to at least 1979/80  think. I seem to remember seeing 16t Mnerals in a very steeply sloping set of sidings there then, which was only brought to mind by a photo of Upper Greenock on the CRASSOC website.

 

I used to live in Bishopton 1974-79 or so, and the yard at Bishopton was served by trip T28. Where from, I am not sure, but normally a 25/6/7 headed train.

 

Redundant 'Blue Spot' fish vans in Rail Blue and branded XP were used as barriers. Most traffic in and out in those days was in VanFit and VanWide vehicles. There were always some tanks in Nitric/Sulphuric Acid branding in the sidings there, however, I never saw them iin traffic as such. They must have come and gone, I suppose, but where to or from I have no idea.

 

One of the works shunters at the time had a very prominent Rolls Royce plate above the Grille, which surprised me at the time.(remember, I would be about 9 or 10 at the time), and was painted a rather fetching shade of glossy green!

 

I don't remember much freight through Bishopton at the time, although the UM tanks and traffic to/from Upper Greenock must have gone through at the time. There was a daily container train sometime after 6 pm with a return working a coupe of hours later to Princes Pier (Clydeport), usually 37 hauled, but apart from that and T28 serving the ROF, I do not recall any others.

 

Regards,

 

Ian

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Hunting around the net for info(as you do). I call it research, mission Control has another phrase!!, I found this

 

https://www.facebook.com/paisleyoorweetoon/photos/p.528593163920389/528593163920389/?type=3&theater

 

I know that it is on Farcebook, and not all can connect, however, whether or not it can be made in 2 mm scale, I wonder.

 

Who was building a Model T Ford derived ralcar?

 

Regards

 

Ian

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Hunting around the net for info(as you do). I call it research, mission Control has another phrase!!, I found this

 

https://www.facebook.com/paisleyoorweetoon/photos/p.528593163920389/528593163920389/?type=3&theater

 

I know that it is on Farcebook, and not all can connect, however, whether or not it can be made in 2 mm scale, I wonder.

 

Who was building a Model T Ford derived ralcar?

 

Regards

 

Ian

That would be me building the Ford railcar. The Albion is a little beauty!

 

Jerry

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Albions were first built in a wee toon ca'd Biggar!

 

Jim

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I thought it might be you, Jerry.

 

I will have to re read the thread just to see how many times I will have to bang my head on the wall.

 

It does answer a question or two, as looking at the map from 1912, there is a loop between Underwood Yd and the works,  which would act as the excahange siding for the works. Man with Red flag at the road crossing, methinks.

 

Regards

 

Ian

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