Bachmann 36-557 decoders and Hornby Elite

[PACman]

Hi Guys, (sorry in advance for the length of this post, but bear with me...)

 

I have been using the Hornby Elite since its release and have an eclectic fleet of steam and diesel locos from Hornby, Bachmann and Heljan. Being a combination of 8 pin and 21 pin models, I have used an array of different decoders over the years, including mostly the Hornby R8249 and Bachmann 36-553 & 36-554, but also a smattering of Bachmann 36-552 and a couple of Hornby Saphire R8248. All of these have behaved extremely well and my Elite has had no problem with them at all.

 

However, I have just 'chipped' recently purchased Bachmann G2A and SDJR 7F locomotives, using a Bachmann 36-557 in each, and have had no end of issues...

 

The 7F when first chipped, lurched backwards a few feet then stopped and produced an Error on the Elite, bringing everything to a halt. Any attempt to place the loco on the track after that would instantly cause an error on the Elite. On inspection of the decoder I found one of the onboard components had a huge bulge in it, so I assumed that I had been unlucky to get a duff decoder. However, to ensure it wasnt a loco issue, I decided to put the blanking plate back in and run it around our club layout (which is DC). The loco ran like a dream on DC. So on getting home, I fitted another 36-557 and tried the loco out. This time it appeared to run okay, but there seemed to be no speed control; it was either on fast or stopped, but placed in reverse it would make a kind of crackling sound and not move, so I immediately removed it from the track. I thought perhaps to try programming it with a new address on the programming track, but no matter what I tried the address would not take (and as the loco was being programmed it would lurch forward). So I cannot operate my 7F with the 36-557.

 

The G2A being the next up, I thought I would do some research first. Articles suggested erratic behaviour could be due to the capacitors and resistors on the motor can, so I decided to remove the capacitors and resistors and attach the orange and brown wires direct to the motor. Having placed a 36-557 in the G2A I then placed it on the track and immediately the loco began to creep forward, even though no command had been given. If I tried to run the loco forward it would get up to speed quickly but not allow me any control, there was also a distinct smell of cooking bakerlite too. So that loco has come off the layout too. So I cannot operate my G2A either with the 36-557.

 

So...to round off, my layout works fine with the original locos and decoders, but all attempts (3 thus far) to use Bachmann 36-557 decoders has resulted in failure.

 

Has anyone experienced issues using the 36-557 with the Hornby Elite? Have they resolved them? Hattons are selling 36-557 decoders in place of the original 36-554, so I cannot continue using the 36-554 decoders now. Should I be using a different 21 pin decoder in my Bachmann models? Should I use the Hornby 8 pin decoders with a 21 pin adapter?

 

Anyhow, if anyone can provide some guidance here it would be useful...I have 2 more 36-557 decoders on their way from Hattons as I type, but I will not be fitting them until I can get this resolved.

 

All help gratefully received.

 

Paul.

 

BTW, the Hornby Elite is running v1.41 of the firmware, so should be up to date.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Guidance. First step on installing any decoder without exception: programme track. Either it will accept an address or it will not. If it does not accept an address, then definitely do not put the loco on DCC power. If the decoder fails to respond in any way to programme track commands, such as a reset, (which is what I would try next, before another attempt at address setting) then return it as unusable.

 

The fact that a new decoder install ran immediately when placed on powered track may mean that address 3 - which the decoder has as factory setting - has an active speed command. How does the G2A react on programme track?

[PACman]

a reset, (which is what I would try next, before another attempt at address setting) then return it as unusable.

 

I have tried a decoder reset by writing the value 8 to CV 8, but to no effect. And when trying to read the address back using the Elite it just shows as address XXX, so I am not convinced it can read the decoders properly either.

[PACman]

How does the G2A react on programme track?

 

The G2A accepts an address change (without movement), but placed back on the main track behaves as before (but under its new address). I have tried programming one of my existing locos with the same address and that behaved fine, so it isnt anything to do with the address used (9094 in this case).

[PACman]

I am strongly of the opinion there is some compatibility issue between the Elite firmware and the Bachmann 36-557 decoder, some incompatibility that did not exist with the 36-554.

[Oldddudders]

This thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65833-re-using-a-Bachmann-21-pin-decoder-ex-blue-pullman-is-it-possible/ includes reference to a compatibility issue between this decoder and the Hornby Select.

[PACman]

This thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65833-re-using-a-Bachmann-21-pin-decoder-ex-blue-pullman-is-it-possible/ includes reference to a compatibility issue between this decoder and the Hornby Select.

Thanks Ian,

 

I'm hopping the Elite does not suffer the same way as the Select, as it is supposed to be NMRA compliant and doesn't have to use the main track for programming...as I say, all my existing decoders have had no issues.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Forgot to write that you should contact the retailer for advice too. They are likely to get the earliest indications of the incompatability issue you suspect. (Which of course shouldn't exist because both items are advertised as NMRA compliant.) Do you have access to a different DCC system to try the 36-557 on?

 

So far of these latest Bachmann decoder offerings sourced from Soundtraxx I have only tried the 36-558 six pin job, which went into the class 03 and has been a perfect performer from the off. (Lenz 100 system.)

[ChrisWV10]

Have you tried disabling run on DC in CV 29? I've had decoders behave as you describe, setting off as soon as they were placed on the track. Seems they 'think' they're on DC and hare off down the track. Disabling DC resolved the problem for me.

 

C.

[johnd]

Have just purchased the 36-557 for use in the Heljan 128 and whilst I can get full functional use of the lights and motor control find that I am unable to change any CV's.

 

It seems as though the decoder is locked in some way.

 

Anybody else had this problem or know of a plausible solution. Yes I am using a Hornby Elite and am having no problems with other decodes.

 

Thx for your help in advance

[Phil S]

Do you have a multimeter?  If not, I would strongly advise getting one - they can cost less than a single decoder ! - although better ones will cost a bit more - especially those capable of measuring dcc's waveform voltage accurately [ the cheap meters are calibrated on ac for 50Hz sine waves ]

 

When the blanking plug is removed, there should be TOTAL isolation of the motor from the track - this can be checked on the resistance range of the meter, and also by placing the loco on some track with dc (eg from a 9V battery) - nothing should happen!!

Check with the power both ways for the same lack-of-action. (Its useful to have done the same 2 tests before removing the blanking plate, to verify the battery works)

 

Check for the motor resistance if you can - just to identify the approximate value a motor in (00) gives. 'The needle' should deflect, but not reach zero!!

 

Check for no-conduction between either motor terminal and either side of the track or pickups. 

 

Is there on board lighting??? -  bulbs or LEDs? - the method used may not be dcc compatible if no dcc socket is provided.

 

On a Mehano model of the ICE-3 I found they had wired a capacitor across the track, inside a pickup-bogie --- the WRONG SIDE of the dcc plug and socket!!! - needless to say, it stopped the train running properly until removed.  Mistakes happen.

 

Here I would perhaps also advocate a Test Jig such as the ESU decoder tester .... but mine now appears to be destroying decoders all on its own !!! - despite individual component measurements appearing to be okay ... I suspect a voltage-breakdown inside the board 8-(

 

It is also useful to be able to use the (multi)meter as an Ammeter to measure the motor's actual current - to ensure the decoder is adequately rated for the motor or identify if there is a problem with the loco gear train etc.   

 

Actually I prefer to use a Maplin Variable bench Power Supply for this: it has an LCD readout of (adjustable) voltage  (2-20Vdc)  and current readout - with the safety protection of a variable current limit.  Using this protects from stupid errors (like I made last week, when I skipped this step) 8-( 

 

[Matabiau]

I have recently bought two of these new 21-pin chips. I installed the first without issue in the new Bachmann class 47522, I am able to control it and reprogram it without any problem. I have just installed the second in a Heljan 128 and although I am able to control it I cannot reprogram it with my Hornby Elite. I see I am not the only one having this problem! With the decoder installed placing the 128 on the track with the controller switched on the lights flash on briefly.

[johnd]

I have been in conversation with Bachmann support on this subject here is there latest reply -

 

"There is a decoder lock featurethat is described in the full user guides for item 36-557 in the Customer Support section of ourwebsite (MC1 decoder). Soundtraxx decoders are advised as beingcompatible with theNMRA standards but it may be that there is in fact a incompatability between this controller and the decoder "

In other words read the manual on our web site. there last comments doesnt seem to hold water much if it works alright in a Bachmann product but not in other makers.

 

Anybody else had problems with this decoder, if so how did you sort it out and did you tell Bachmann about it, They need to know !!

[PACman]

Well I have not as yet managed to get a Bachmann 36-557 chip to work with either of my G2A (caps and resistors removed) or my SDJR 7F. All previous advice pertaining to CV adjustments on the 36-554 decoder do not work for the 36-557 (there is no CV 54 and 55 to control BEMF with...this control seems to be buried in the Hyperdrive controls in CVs 10, 209, 210 and 212 for which I think I'll need a PhD to interpret!)

 

I am sure the 36-557 is a very versatile decoder, but it does need careful setting up, which at this time is beyond my understanding. Has anyone managed to work out what CVs need to be changed, and to what values? I am not sure what locomotive the default settings are supposed to work with, but it certainly is not the G2A or 7F.

[Matabiau]

An update to my previous post on 18th March. I have finally got around to updating the firmware on my Elite to v1.41. I am now able to change the address on my Heljan 128 equipped with this sort of Bachmann DCC chip.