Bluebell Railway news

[Neal Ball]

Blimey this is all very different from talking about liveries!

 

Personally I have no issue with changing the track in the manner suggested; concrete sleepers etc. I would rather it wasn't welded rail. But if that saves money in the medium to longer term and saves on maintenance  then that's also ok.

 

Sadly the preservation enthusiasts are not enough to keep the railway going in our very expensive age. Everything now costs money and it's generally not the sums to be raised by a raffle. Standards have changed from the early 70's when it was ok to go line side and not worry about it etc. That's no longer the world we live in.

 

However! I would rather railways didn't do the Winter "Northern lights" type trains. These are purely for commercial reasons. But in these straitened times, railways have to raise money in any way they can.

 

If its not a contradiction... I would rather see pre-grouping / grouping liveries :-) Hopefully that gets us back on topic :-)

[Zomboid]

11 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

However! I would rather railways didn't do the Winter "Northern lights" type trains. These are purely for commercial reasons

I think those are less of an issue than the infrastructure. I wouldn't go on one, but they're not for me. 

 

They're the same as the diesel galas, or Wizard theme weeks or Thomas events - just catering to a market. They tend to be the events which pay for the other less lucrative things that they do.

[Grizz]

13 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Blimey this is all very different from talking about liveries!

 

Personally I have no issue with changing the track in the manner suggested; concrete sleepers etc. I would rather it wasn't welded rail. But if that saves money in the medium to longer term and saves on maintenance  then that's also ok.

 

Sadly the preservation enthusiasts are not enough to keep the railway going in our very expensive age. Everything now costs money and it's generally not the sums to be raised by a raffle. Standards have changed from the early 70's when it was ok to go line side and not worry about it etc. That's no longer the world we live in.

 

However! I would rather railways didn't do the Winter "Northern lights" type trains. These are purely for commercial reasons.

The only rails thermit welded together on the Bluebell main line are.

 

1. The rails through Sharpthorne tunnel. This is technically Long Welded Rail (LWR = rails above 36.6m long up to 740m long) and not Continious Welded Rail (CWR = rails above 740m long) because it is only just 700m long. It is welded up because it removes the rail joints which are a weakness in the track, removing the joints reduces maintenance in a location with poor visibility, limited access and a confined working space with petrol tools without the provision of additional ventilation. The thermit welding up of rails is permitted as the tunnel is in an ambient temperature, most of the time and therefore not subject to the Prevention of Buckling of short rail sites (Short Rails = minimum in normal track = 4.5m up to 36.6m).

 

2. New FB rails in the main line, in short rail sites. Normal New Short FB Rail length 18.288m long (60fts). There are some places where two short rails have been thermit welded up to reduce the over all number of rail joints (every joint is a weakness in the track and requires maintenance).
This creates rails still within the limits of the standards for short rails (36.6m max) and therefore can be installed with adequate rail gaps at a given temperature to allow for expansion and contraction under the normal range of temperatures found in the UK.

 

There would be no need to install CWR on Bluebell as it has a maximum speed of 25 mph on normal services. Also CWR requires a wholly different maintenance management regime and that requires additional safety critical training and competence compliance, all of which has to be kept up and paid for. 
 

Sadly without the money raised by the Steam Lights things might be worse. Bit Disney for my personal taste but it books up well, it is really quite spectacular when seen up close and pays the bills. Unlike just normal times bums on seats trips up and down which haven’t really covered costs for years. 

 

 

Re BMV in its current Southern Green livery, I really do like it. It is only that I haven’t seen it in any other livery. I guess it only ran in that livery for a very few years. Built in Feb 1946 and then turned over to British Railways on 1st Jan 1948. Allowing for a year or two to be repainted into BR Green. 
 

I only found out recently that the E4 tank can’t be put into IEG because the smoke box is the new type fitted after the locos were painted into LBSCR Burnt Umber. Such a shame as originally it was turned out in IEG.

 

Although 55 Stepney is an A1X ? So should surely be treated the same way....or have I got that wrong? 
 

[Zomboid]

27 minutes ago, Grizz said:

 

I only found out recently that the E4 tank can’t be put into IEG because the smoke box is the new type fitted after the locos were painted into LBSCR Burnt Umber. Such a shame as originally it was turned out in IEG.

 

Although 55 Stepney is an A1X ? So should surely be treated the same way....or have I got that wrong

Maybe it's just me, but my view on all that kind of stuff is that it's just paint. If I were the owner and thought that the E4 would look good in IEG, I'd get it painted like that. There have been many more egregious "incorrect" paint jobs in preservation. Flying Scotsman in LNER with blinkers, 35005 in blue and Royal Scot in LMS come to mind. But now they've been painted into different colours and no lasting harm has been done - and they are now all legitimate parts of the locos history.

 

But then if I could I'd be painting a Class 45 into ATSF War Bonnet, or a rebuilt Bulleid into black with sunshine Southern lettering, so I might not be a great arbiter of these things.

[BlueLightning]

1 hour ago, Grizz said:

I only found out recently that the E4 tank can’t be put into IEG because the smoke box is the new type fitted after the locos were painted into LBSCR Burnt Umber. Such a shame as originally it was turned out in IEG.

 

but it never wore it's name when it was umber in LBSC ownership, so the livery is already "wrong" so I can't see how anyone could argue against IEG

 

1 hour ago, Grizz said:

Although 55 Stepney is an A1X ? So should surely be treated the same way....or have I got that wrong? 

 

And Fenchurch had been sold off before umber became the  LBSC livery, so in that sense the Terriers are backwards!

 

Gary

Edited February 2, 2021 by BlueLightning

[Grizz]

16 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

 

but it never wore it's name when it was umber in LBSC ownership, so he livery is already "wrong" so I can't see how anyone could argue against IEG

 

 

And Fenchurch had been sold off before umber became the  LBSC livery, so in that sense the Terriers are backwards!

 

Gary

Brilliant, thanks so much Gary, this is exactly the type of ammo I was after!  Haha got the gits. 
 

Zombiod I agree. Unfortunately there are the Preservation Taliban to deal with. The fact they argue one thing for one situation and exactly the opposite for another seems to pass them by. Can’t have FB rails and concrete sleepers it isn’t authentic....well actually concrete sleepers are authentic but just chaired Bullhead types...but that’s another row! 
 

I remember when the E4 was in BR Black for a bit, looked really good with B&C coaches. The H would look good likewise with a couple of green coaches in tow. 
 

What about the 9F in experimental BR Blue? Or the 9F in Southern Olive Green? Or the Duke Dog in Southern Malachite Green? Or the Standard 4 Tank in LBSCR Burnt Umber, similar to the big LBSCR tanks? .......If anyone smells burning flesh around Horsted Keynes in the next week or so, that’ll probably be me on the village green!

[stewartingram]

Sorry but the E4 in these gaudy colours is wrong. Go to Bressingham, where the NRM's E4 is painted a proper shade of blue. Now that is a REAL E4!. Mind you, I can remember seeing it pottering about in BR black....

 

Stewart

[burgundy]

2 hours ago, Grizz said:

I only found out recently that the E4 tank can’t be put into IEG because the smoke box is the new type fitted after the locos were painted into LBSCR Burnt Umber. Such a shame as originally it was turned out in IEG.

 

Surely, as a lever reverser E4, it should be in Stroudley's goods green? That has never been done before in preservation and should wind up quite a few people. 

Best wishes 

Eric

[Grizz]

Seriously chucking it down. Looking in the Down direction towards Horsted Farm Bridge, one of the latest relays ready for tamping. 
 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Yes, it's all very well having a go about wooden sleepers and jointed rails, but how many workers did the old railways need to replace rotten timbers worn rails, walk the track hammering chair keys back into place work on chair screws, fishplates, &c.  It's rather easier to find volunteers who want to drive locos, inspect tickets or work in the shop, especially if they've reached retirement age and are not quite as fit as they used to be.   

 

These blokes in day-glow orange jackets taking photos along the lineside aren't historically correct either - perhaps we should bring back railway policemen in top hat and tails to catch some of them?  I haven't seen too many goods porters or wheeltappers on preserved railways lately either, I'm just grateful that there are still people who do maintain the permanent way, restore rolling stock and many other unseen jobs like finance or safety inspections without which there would be no trains.

[Grizz]

Still chucking down but the work goes on. 
 

 

 

After the first pass....

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

18 hours ago, Grizz said:

The only rails thermit welded together on the Bluebell main line are.

 

1. The rails through Sharpthorne tunnel. This is technically Long Welded Rail (LWR = rails above 36.6m long up to 740m long) and not Continious Welded Rail (CWR = rails above 740m long) because it is only just 700m long. It is welded up because it removes the rail joints which are a weakness in the track, removing the joints reduces maintenance in a location with poor visibility, limited access and a confined working space with petrol tools without the provision of additional ventilation. The thermit welding up of rails is permitted as the tunnel is in an ambient temperature, most of the time and therefore not subject to the Prevention of Buckling of short rail sites (Short Rails = minimum in normal track = 4.5m up to 36.6m).

 

2. New FB rails in the main line, in short rail sites. Normal New Short FB Rail length 18.288m long (60fts). There are some places where two short rails have been thermit welded up to reduce the over all number of rail joints (every joint is a weakness in the track and requires maintenance).
This creates rails still within the limits of the standards for short rails (36.6m max) and therefore can be installed with adequate rail gaps at a given temperature to allow for expansion and contraction under the normal range of temperatures found in the UK.

 

There would be no need to install CWR on Bluebell as it has a maximum speed of 25 mph on normal services. Also CWR requires a wholly different maintenance management regime and that requires additional safety critical training and competence compliance, all of which has to be kept up and paid for. 
 

Sadly without the money raised by the Steam Lights things might be worse. Bit Disney for my personal taste but it books up well, it is really quite spectacular when seen up close and pays the bills. Unlike just normal times bums on seats trips up and down which haven’t really covered costs for years. 

 

 

Re BMV in its current Southern Green livery, I really do like it. It is only that I haven’t seen it in any other livery. I guess it only ran in that livery for a very few years. Built in Feb 1946 and then turned over to British Railways on 1st Jan 1948. Allowing for a year or two to be repainted into BR Green. 
 

I only found out recently that the E4 tank can’t be put into IEG because the smoke box is the new type fitted after the locos were painted into LBSCR Burnt Umber. Such a shame as originally it was turned out in IEG.

 

Although 55 Stepney is an A1X ? So should surely be treated the same way....or have I got that wrong? 
 

Yes, 21c123 had already been 34023 and BR green for over four years before it got the modified cab. Malachite green isn't really my thing but most other preserved light pacifics are brunswick and It would be nice to see the cab backdated to match the rest (I'll leave safety valve location out of it).

 

John

[Zomboid]

21C123 isn't just a remnant of BR though. It's probably not done as much work, but it's been a "preserved" loco for much longer than it was an SR/BR loco, and that is as much a part of its story as the SR/BR part.

 

I'm ignorant of such things, but if it had a different style of cab when the southern had it painted that colour, then it would be nice to see that backdated. But either way it's not "wrong" that it has its current cab and paint combination.

[Dunsignalling]

13 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

21C123 isn't just a remnant of BR though. It's probably not done as much work, but it's been a "preserved" loco for much longer than it was an SR/BR loco, and that is as much a part of its story as the SR/BR part.

 

I'm ignorant of such things, but if it had a different style of cab when the southern had it painted that colour, then it would be nice to see that backdated. But either way it's not "wrong" that it has its current cab and paint combination.

It's the same as seeing 60103 in final BR specification masquerading as 4472 in LNER apple green. The important thing is that these locos still exist, and run, but such mismatches do grate a bit.

 

As modellers we strive to avoid anachronisms and that's bound to influence our attitudes to preserved locos not conforming to an "in service" appearance.

 

John

Edited February 3, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Grizz]

Horsted Farm Crossing has had new ‘Kissing Gates’ installed. Handcrafted by some of the BBR Infrastructure Pway legends. Looks very good. 
 

UP Side
 

 

DOWN Side.

 

Still a bit left to do....just in case anyone was wondering. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Grizz

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

It's the same as seeing 60103 in final BR specification masquerading as 4472 in LNER apple green. The important thing is that these locos still exist, and run, but such mismatches do grate a bit.

 

As modellers we strive to avoid anachronisms and that's bound to influence our attitudes to preserved locos not conforming to an "in service" appearance.

 

John

I suppose my view is that it's impossible for an active steam locomotive in 2021 to have any mismatches or anachronisms. It's real stuff that is happening now, and it's entirely correct for 2021.

 

Modeling is a different thing because we can create a little slice of pretend 1956. In the real world it's 2021, and in order to actually operate a steam locomotive, the rolling stock and infrastructure has to exist in that context. A heritage railway is not (in my view) a model or a museum, it's a railway, which transports people from place to place for a purpose (even if that purpose is entertainment, it's still valid).

 

So Blackmore Vale may well have a paint and cab combination which it didn't have in 1947, but since I'm not trying to imagine that it's anything other than the first half of the 21st century, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Though I would be interested to see it with the combination that it did carry back then.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

I suppose my view is that it's impossible for an active steam locomotive in 2021 to have any mismatches or anachronisms. It's real stuff that is happening now, and it's entirely correct for 2021.

 

Modeling is a different thing because we can create a little slice of pretend 1956. In the real world it's 2021, and in order to actually operate a steam locomotive, the rolling stock and infrastructure has to exist in that context. A heritage railway is not (in my view) a model or a museum, it's a railway, which transports people from place to place for a purpose (even if that purpose is entertainment, it's still valid).

 

So Blackmore Vale may well have a paint and cab combination which it didn't have in 1947, but since I'm not trying to imagine that it's anything other than the first half of the 21st century, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Though I would be interested to see it with the combination that it did carry back then.

My point is that Blackmore Vale, never combined the features it does now before the Bluebell Railway owned it. The anachronisms are, though, purely cosmetic and have no operational significance. 

 

To be a truly authentic 21st century loco, maybe the tender should be lettered "BLUEBELL" rather than "SOUTHERN".

 

Mind you, remembering the disgraceful appearance of 34023 when working the Exeter route in the summer of 1961, I thought it a surprising candidate for preservation in the first place.

 

John

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Grizz]

I wish I hadn’t brought up the subject of Blackmore Vale’s livery now.....

 

Definitely not anyone commenting here so far, but just perhaps where the Preservation Taliban sometimes get it so badly wrong is that they are happy to impose their world views and values on some aspects of certain bits of pet kit, whilst they are only too happy to ignore blatant errors which would not have sat correctly back in the day. 
 

The model railway v preserved railway is a very good analogy. Preservation has this issue of where do you draw the line and modelling railways is fairly easy in comparison. And it is sad to say that in some cases some of these people believe that it is their way or no way and it is their private train set. I have little time for such people. Unfortunately many such people truly believe that British Railway history ended on 11th August 1968. Nothing else is of any value. They own the railway therefore that is the end of the matter. No one owns anything for ever.......
 

The preservation situation in twenty years doesn’t want to be a Disney land theme park but it should reflect what successive generations remember and what future generations might like to see preserved.
 

Rehashing the same old events at the same old railways with the same old locos and rolling stock for the same few who want nothing ever to change isn’t realistic. 
 

Blue and Grey coaches were floating around before the end of steam on scheduled steam hauled trains. Not for long but they were there and often mixed in with other liveries. I’ve seen a video of a steam hauled train from Weymouth that was fully blue and grey. This is probably one of the most extensively ignored facts both in modelling and in preservation.......probably due to the 11th August 1968....etc. Never mind eh....

Edited February 3, 2021 by Grizz
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[The Evil Bus Driver]

29 minutes ago, Grizz said:

I wish I hadn’t brought up the subject of Blackmore Vale’s livery now.....

 

Definitely not anyone commenting here so far, but just perhaps where the Preservation Taliban sometimes get it so badly wrong is that they are happy to impose their world views and values on some aspects of certain bits of pet kit, whilst they are only too happy to ignore blatant errors which would not have sat correctly back in the day. 
 

 

 

Blue and Grey coaches were floating around before the end of steam on scheduled steam hauled trains. Not for long but they were there and often mixed in with other liveries. I’ve seen a video of a steam hauled train from Weymouth that was fully blue and grey. This is probably one of the most extensively ignored facts both in modelling and in preservation.......probably due to the 11th August 1968....etc. Never mind eh....

I'm fairly sure there's a picture of a Blue & Grey mk1 coupled to a green Bulleid floating about on line somewhere. The mk1 must have been ex works as it's very clean.

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

To be a truly authentic 21st century loco, maybe the tender should be lettered "BLUEBELL" rather than "SOUTHERN".

Wasn't that what they did in the early days of preservation? I'm sure the KWVR had a livery of its own for a while.

That would be a fun thing to revive, but I somewhat doubt it'll happen.

 

I'm sure there was more willingness to do something other than BR in the 60s in the past. One of Lakeside's Fairburns was painted in Caledonian colours for example, but just imagine the frothing if they tried that now...

[Dunsignalling]

24 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Wasn't that what they did in the early days of preservation? I'm sure the KWVR had a livery of its own for a while.

That would be a fun thing to revive, but I somewhat doubt it'll happen.

 

I'm sure there was more willingness to do something other than BR in the 60s in the past. One of Lakeside's Fairburns was painted in Caledonian colours for example, but just imagine the frothing if they tried that now...

I think the KWVR put their Ivatt tank back into their own livery to mark their (50th?) Anniversary.

 

John

[Tom Burnham]

I wonder how far heritage railways attempt to recreate the experience of rail travel in the past. How many have overhead pole routes for telegraphs for example? And yet watching the wires go up and down was one of the most memorable features of railway journeys of my childhood.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

I wonder how far heritage railways attempt to recreate the experience of rail travel in the past. How many have overhead pole routes for telegraphs for example? And yet watching the wires go up and down was one of the most memorable features of railway journeys of my childhood.

 

The GCR did have some at Loughborough I believe, and I think others have also tried.   

 

The problem with pole routes these days is that the traditional copper wires are worth stealing for scrap value.   If you turn up on Saturday and find the lines disappeared whilst you weren't running trains midweek it's not just an inconvenience affecting administrative phone calls (that could be dealt with using mobile phones), you can't run the advertised timetable on a fully signalled route when block instruments can't talk to each other and the best you can do is to resort to some hastily implemented form of degraded working. 

 

The fare-paying public are unimpressed by chalkboard cancellation notices however realistically that might follow BR practice.  They've gone out of their way to get there and expect little Johnny to get his train ride, and perhaps more importantly won't come back again.

[Grizz]

This morning’s view from the office window. Thank the lordz it has stopped flipping raining for a bit.
Tamping 5 PNTS at Leamlands to Vaux End, 11M 8CH to 11M 48CH.

 

 

View of the sun actually breaking through over HK UP Yard. 
 

 

 

[Grizz]

Flat bottom rail in BR steam days. This is (not my photo) Malling Cutting, Lewes, East Sussex, looking back towards Malling Brooks and Lewes town, Cliffe side. The down road can clearly be seen to have been recently relayed with FB rail. In fact the whole of this section over on to Hamsey island was relayed with FB......then some ten year’s so later....they shut it. Probably the most deliberately, intensionally anti rail - pro road acts in Sussex. All for a dual carriage way bypass set to be built right through the centre of Lewes, the only part of which was built was the Phoenix Bridge. They even flattened the original Lewes station in Friars Walk in preparation.